Getting Fallen Empires draft to work
Moderators: timmermac, Blacksmith, KrazyTheFox, Agetian, friarsol, CCGHQ Admins
53 posts
• Page 1 of 4 • 1, 2, 3, 4
Getting Fallen Empires draft to work
by lujo » 17 Oct 2014, 23:57
EDIT - Progress!
Deep Spawn, the notorious giant Lobster is in the house! Half of the dreaded High Tide + Dr. Zoidberg combo is operational thanks to Sloth (and god knows what else has been done that I don't know about!)
Edit - Also edited out A few things which were solved
-----
So, I'd love to assist anyone with programing skills and as little time as they could afford to get this little gem of a set working a bit better in limited. No really fancy stuff for starters, just get the bugs out and the AI's life a bit easier and the whole thing working a little better.
Why is this set worth a bit of special care? Because it's really, really sweet, much better than people give it credit for, probably the deepest of the original small pre-block sets, and also loaded with bugs.
And I'd love to eventually build a Terrisaire questing world for forge (The Dark, Fallen Empires, Homelands, Ice Age, Alliances and Coldsnap). I've been playtesting it and it's actually pretty fun. Such a world would be a nice default place to either play with cards of that era or fish for core staples (which include Force of Will, Pyrokinesis, Hymn to Tourach, Merchant Scroll, Necropotence, Orcish Lumberjack, Tinder Wall, Brainstorm and a whole lot of other useful junk).
Card's of note which make FE a fine little addition to a quest pool:
That's quite a bunch of playables and fine cards to have - some are bloody strong. Since the set is cheap due to RL overprinting, and is also rather small, I'd love to see if as many kinks could be pruned from it as possible.
No unrealistic expectations, if there's heavy constraints on something - what can you do. But I'd love to know at least why some things which don't really work don't work, because maybe we could come up with a solution.
Current situation - 1.5.28:
Unimplemented:
Merseine - It's being worked on! (Maybe )
Raiding Party - Ok, I can see how implementing this one would be a pickle. I wouldn't badger anyone with implementing it, but having a card not appear in boosters is very bad for drafting a set. This one would probably not be played, but there might be a bomby uncommon appearing more often in it's place. Would be nice if, until this is implemented if it ever is, it gets replaced with a basic land or something. I'd advise that for any such situation.
Bugged:
Night Soil (currently) - it's bugged in conjunction with the interface which lets you select which cards to remove. It "selects" cards in the "keep in graveyard" part of the selection interface, so it creates tokens without removing cards which means you can make infinite tokens provided you have infinite mana.
AI touchups on some key cards:
Black:
Necrite - is identical to Mindstab Thrull, but sacrifices itself to kill a creature. The AI isn't putting it in decks which is a shame, as the set is small and tight and most cards are in it for a reason (and removal in it is precious). I am really curious about why the AI isn't using it, if it is using Mindstab Thrull (it certainly seems to be drafting it, because I rarely see it in boosters).
Ebon Praetor - is essentially The Black Bomb of the set, and works like a Lord Of The Pit. It's much bigger than most creatures, has first strike and pretty much nothing can handle him, but you need to sacrifice a creature to him every turn. If you sacrifice a Thrull he gets bigger instead.
I don't see the AI using him, and I see the AI passing him around, which certainly isn't what would happen IRL, and he's a very good reason to be in Black, the best one in fact.
Blue:
High Tide / Deep Spawn
This combo is what High Tide is in the set for.
Deep Spawn is the largest creature in the set. I don't see the AI drafting either (or the spawning bed) which makes drafting mono blue kind of easy for the Human but it also often forces the human to draft blue as it's always "open" and the boosters are small and flooded with it. The AI fix might be easy if it's possible to do:
Homarid Spawning Bed -
I've never seen the AI play or pick up Homarid Spawning Bed. This is very strange, as that's basically the key card to blue and using it on any blue creature which isn't a token is essentially never the wrong move (most of them have higher casting cost than makes sense because to combo with it better).
If anyone would care to properly make it's AI work at least with its set, the list of valid targets is fairly short:
Using the HSM on most of these nets a profit in power on the board, chump blockers, tokens to madly attack with etc. Deep spawn might be an exception, because it's significantly larger than most creatures in the set, so simply having it on the board and attacking with it is the other way blue reliably goes for the win.
There are several ways HSB could be coded to work with FE blue creatures, but those depend on what the AI can or can't register. There's also very little removal in the set, so having HSB be used in response to any of those is also a perfectly legit option.
Other Blue Stuff:
Well, if the AI could be thaught to use HT + DS, Merseine was ported, and maybe the Spawning Bed made to work with the overcosted commons it'd be quite an improvement already.
Red:
Goblin Kites - Since there's no fliers in the set, and all red creatures have =< 2 base thoughness this card is essentially Fling on a stick except against Combat Medic, Spore Flower or a Spore Cloud from hand. I've never seen the AI use it, but it should be fairly simple to code at least a simple and effective way to use it.
If making X creatures go through would kill the opponent and you have enough mana, you do it and kill the opponent. It effectively sayes: "R: Target creature is unblockable untill end of turn. At the end of turn flip a coin. If you lose, destroy the creature and it can't be regenerated."
I think the AI could make that calculation, unless this is already working. It would certainly lower the amount of ground stalls (it works on non-red creatures too so it's basically a complete bomb).
Brassclaw Orcs - I see situations where the AI is unwilling to attack with these guys as it's afraid to trade so it leaves them on defense. But the problem is that they can't block anything worth blocking, so the AI just loses a turn of offense, which it can't afford. For all practical purposes these guys can't block, and if it's at all possible they should always be attacking unless they would die without trading. Not too many things can block them and survive either.
Green
Thelonite Druid - I've never seen the AI use it, and it gets passed around in boosters, which would never ever happen in RL, as it's one of the strongest if not the strongest card in the set.
If the AI isn't using it it causes ground stalls to go on forever, as the Thallids are generally slow and only really serve to clog the ground until you have this guy up to animate forests and kill the other guy.
A very basic functionality for this guy could (if possible) work this way:
Thorn Thallid - The AI tends to waste these guys by pinging the opposing player. A much better strategy is to hold onto counters until it can shoot a 2 toughness creature. If used properly it's the one of the stronger cards in FE draft.
White:
Icatian Phalanx - The AI is ignoring this thing, and it's a complete bomb. I understand that the AI isn't the best with banding (and also that this is actually being worked on), but in FE draft, even without actually using banding on it, a 2/4 which gets to chose how damage is assigned on defense is still a really high pick.
Icatian Javelineers - The AI will waste the counter by pinging the player. In a removal light format, this is a big waste, as it could otherwise kill really important stuff with that or add it to damage done in a combat situation.
Ok, so any amount of work on those would improve the experience quite a bit, some might be easy, most would probably make the AI on AI matches devolve into ground stalls much less often, and the drafts would be more sensible. Some might already be working, too.
A few general things about FE draft, deckbuilding and ways to improve it:
1) For one thing, FE draft should most likely involve 6 boosters rather than 5. It's a tribal set which is sort of heavily dependent on uncommons and rares for it's archetypes to work.
2) It's kind of too complex for 8 card boosters and the way it's generally drafted in practice is to have 6 boosters, but open 2 at the same time. This then makes the 16 card packs deep enough for a much more sensible draft.
3) The AI will sometimes make really terrible 3 or 4 color decks as it's not evaluating cards right, and this is causing really lopsided games, so something, whatever it is, needs to be done about it to either get the draft supplying more playables or the AI capable of playing more cards.
4) The set is a tribal set. It's not just removal-light it's instant-and-sorcery-light, too (only 6 instants + sorceries all in all). Many creatures in it function as essentially "Seals" like Seal of Fire would. Goblin Chirurgeon is the broken grandfather of Welding Jar. Basal Thrull is a more balanced Dark Ritual. Armor Thrull is a pseudo Holy Strenght. Most effects you'd see on spells in other sets appear as either sacrificeable creatures, repeatable effects on creatures or enchantments. (This is why the sacrifice theme is so emphasized in the famous flavor of the set, it's very tied to the mechanical design philosophy behind it).
The reason I feel the need to explain this is that as opposed to other early sets, where I'd encourage it, trying to make Fallen Empires draft better by adding a booster of, say, 4E wouldn't work. The whole design falls apart if you add fliers (there are none), creatures with intimidate (there are none), mass removal (there is just one and it's tricky to use), etc.
This is why either simply adding another FE booster or adding another booster but opening 2 "at the same time" really is the way to go.
5) A very, very cool thing to do which Forge could allow, and which I'd personally LOVE to do is to use the space there is in the set and fill it with period appropriate cards from other expansions (keeping the strict design rules of the set pertaining to creature types intact and only using cards from The Dark, Ice Age, Homelands, Alliances and maybe Coldsnap if I could make old frame art for it).
What that would entail is this:
So, would anyone with coding skills like to help out with making a cool little old set kick ass as much as it could? I'm not demanding anything, I'm not expecting miracles, what can't be done can't be done or can't be done yet, but anything would be really highly appreciated. I tried to make a you tube vid of forge drafting Fallen Empires but I kept running into the Mindstab Thrull bug, or stuff that looks stupid but can actually be fixed and look kick ass, and I'd love to promote this program and present it in the best possible light.
And, well, there's way more that can be done with the set than these glaring things here and the experience with getting IT to work is bound to be invaluable - it's the granddaddy of a million things that came afterwards, moreso than anything other than possibly Alliances.
I could probably reconstruct the design doc to a T, explain why every card is in there, how's what supposed to work, etc etc. I really hope someone'd like to make this work as much as I would. Or at least make the damned Mindstab Thrull not crash the game.
If it would help, I'll make some vids. What the heck, I'll make some anyway, but still... Help?
Deep Spawn, the notorious giant Lobster is in the house! Half of the dreaded High Tide + Dr. Zoidberg combo is operational thanks to Sloth (and god knows what else has been done that I don't know about!)
Edit - Also edited out A few things which were solved
-----
So, I'd love to assist anyone with programing skills and as little time as they could afford to get this little gem of a set working a bit better in limited. No really fancy stuff for starters, just get the bugs out and the AI's life a bit easier and the whole thing working a little better.
Why is this set worth a bit of special care? Because it's really, really sweet, much better than people give it credit for, probably the deepest of the original small pre-block sets, and also loaded with bugs.
And I'd love to eventually build a Terrisaire questing world for forge (The Dark, Fallen Empires, Homelands, Ice Age, Alliances and Coldsnap). I've been playtesting it and it's actually pretty fun. Such a world would be a nice default place to either play with cards of that era or fish for core staples (which include Force of Will, Pyrokinesis, Hymn to Tourach, Merchant Scroll, Necropotence, Orcish Lumberjack, Tinder Wall, Brainstorm and a whole lot of other useful junk).
Card's of note which make FE a fine little addition to a quest pool:
- Cards of Note | Open
That's quite a bunch of playables and fine cards to have - some are bloody strong. Since the set is cheap due to RL overprinting, and is also rather small, I'd love to see if as many kinks could be pruned from it as possible.
No unrealistic expectations, if there's heavy constraints on something - what can you do. But I'd love to know at least why some things which don't really work don't work, because maybe we could come up with a solution.
Current situation - 1.5.28:
Unimplemented:
Merseine - It's being worked on! (Maybe
) - Info | Open
Raiding Party - Ok, I can see how implementing this one would be a pickle. I wouldn't badger anyone with implementing it, but having a card not appear in boosters is very bad for drafting a set. This one would probably not be played, but there might be a bomby uncommon appearing more often in it's place. Would be nice if, until this is implemented if it ever is, it gets replaced with a basic land or something. I'd advise that for any such situation.
Bugged:
- It's been solved! | Open
Night Soil (currently) - it's bugged in conjunction with the interface which lets you select which cards to remove. It "selects" cards in the "keep in graveyard" part of the selection interface, so it creates tokens without removing cards which means you can make infinite tokens provided you have infinite mana.
AI touchups on some key cards:
Black:
Necrite - is identical to Mindstab Thrull, but sacrifices itself to kill a creature. The AI isn't putting it in decks which is a shame, as the set is small and tight and most cards are in it for a reason (and removal in it is precious). I am really curious about why the AI isn't using it, if it is using Mindstab Thrull (it certainly seems to be drafting it, because I rarely see it in boosters).
Ebon Praetor - is essentially The Black Bomb of the set, and works like a Lord Of The Pit. It's much bigger than most creatures, has first strike and pretty much nothing can handle him, but you need to sacrifice a creature to him every turn. If you sacrifice a Thrull he gets bigger instead.
I don't see the AI using him, and I see the AI passing him around, which certainly isn't what would happen IRL, and he's a very good reason to be in Black, the best one in fact.
Blue:
High Tide / Deep Spawn
This combo is what High Tide is in the set for.
Deep Spawn is the largest creature in the set. I don't see the AI drafting either (or the spawning bed) which makes drafting mono blue kind of easy for the Human but it also often forces the human to draft blue as it's always "open" and the boosters are small and flooded with it. The AI fix might be easy if it's possible to do:
Homarid Spawning Bed -
I've never seen the AI play or pick up Homarid Spawning Bed. This is very strange, as that's basically the key card to blue and using it on any blue creature which isn't a token is essentially never the wrong move (most of them have higher casting cost than makes sense because to combo with it better).
If anyone would care to properly make it's AI work at least with its set, the list of valid targets is fairly short:
- Sensible HSB targets | Open
Using the HSM on most of these nets a profit in power on the board, chump blockers, tokens to madly attack with etc. Deep spawn might be an exception, because it's significantly larger than most creatures in the set, so simply having it on the board and attacking with it is the other way blue reliably goes for the win.
There are several ways HSB could be coded to work with FE blue creatures, but those depend on what the AI can or can't register. There's also very little removal in the set, so having HSB be used in response to any of those is also a perfectly legit option.
Other Blue Stuff:
Well, if the AI could be thaught to use HT + DS, Merseine was ported, and maybe the Spawning Bed made to work with the overcosted commons it'd be quite an improvement already.
Red:
Goblin Kites - Since there's no fliers in the set, and all red creatures have =< 2 base thoughness this card is essentially Fling on a stick except against Combat Medic, Spore Flower or a Spore Cloud from hand. I've never seen the AI use it, but it should be fairly simple to code at least a simple and effective way to use it.
If making X creatures go through would kill the opponent and you have enough mana, you do it and kill the opponent. It effectively sayes: "R: Target creature is unblockable untill end of turn. At the end of turn flip a coin. If you lose, destroy the creature and it can't be regenerated."
I think the AI could make that calculation, unless this is already working. It would certainly lower the amount of ground stalls (it works on non-red creatures too so it's basically a complete bomb).
Brassclaw Orcs - I see situations where the AI is unwilling to attack with these guys as it's afraid to trade so it leaves them on defense. But the problem is that they can't block anything worth blocking, so the AI just loses a turn of offense, which it can't afford. For all practical purposes these guys can't block, and if it's at all possible they should always be attacking unless they would die without trading. Not too many things can block them and survive either.
Green
Thelonite Druid - I've never seen the AI use it, and it gets passed around in boosters, which would never ever happen in RL, as it's one of the strongest if not the strongest card in the set.
If the AI isn't using it it causes ground stalls to go on forever, as the Thallids are generally slow and only really serve to clog the ground until you have this guy up to animate forests and kill the other guy.
A very basic functionality for this guy could (if possible) work this way:
- Thelonite Druid AI | Open
Thorn Thallid - The AI tends to waste these guys by pinging the opposing player. A much better strategy is to hold onto counters until it can shoot a 2 toughness creature. If used properly it's the one of the stronger cards in FE draft.
White:
Icatian Phalanx - The AI is ignoring this thing, and it's a complete bomb. I understand that the AI isn't the best with banding (and also that this is actually being worked on), but in FE draft, even without actually using banding on it, a 2/4 which gets to chose how damage is assigned on defense is still a really high pick.
Icatian Javelineers - The AI will waste the counter by pinging the player. In a removal light format, this is a big waste, as it could otherwise kill really important stuff with that or add it to damage done in a combat situation.
Ok, so any amount of work on those would improve the experience quite a bit, some might be easy, most would probably make the AI on AI matches devolve into ground stalls much less often, and the drafts would be more sensible. Some might already be working, too.
A few general things about FE draft, deckbuilding and ways to improve it:
1) For one thing, FE draft should most likely involve 6 boosters rather than 5. It's a tribal set which is sort of heavily dependent on uncommons and rares for it's archetypes to work.
2) It's kind of too complex for 8 card boosters and the way it's generally drafted in practice is to have 6 boosters, but open 2 at the same time. This then makes the 16 card packs deep enough for a much more sensible draft.
3) The AI will sometimes make really terrible 3 or 4 color decks as it's not evaluating cards right, and this is causing really lopsided games, so something, whatever it is, needs to be done about it to either get the draft supplying more playables or the AI capable of playing more cards.
4) The set is a tribal set. It's not just removal-light it's instant-and-sorcery-light, too (only 6 instants + sorceries all in all). Many creatures in it function as essentially "Seals" like Seal of Fire would. Goblin Chirurgeon is the broken grandfather of Welding Jar. Basal Thrull is a more balanced Dark Ritual. Armor Thrull is a pseudo Holy Strenght. Most effects you'd see on spells in other sets appear as either sacrificeable creatures, repeatable effects on creatures or enchantments. (This is why the sacrifice theme is so emphasized in the famous flavor of the set, it's very tied to the mechanical design philosophy behind it).
The reason I feel the need to explain this is that as opposed to other early sets, where I'd encourage it, trying to make Fallen Empires draft better by adding a booster of, say, 4E wouldn't work. The whole design falls apart if you add fliers (there are none), creatures with intimidate (there are none), mass removal (there is just one and it's tricky to use), etc.
This is why either simply adding another FE booster or adding another booster but opening 2 "at the same time" really is the way to go.
5) A very, very cool thing to do which Forge could allow, and which I'd personally LOVE to do is to use the space there is in the set and fill it with period appropriate cards from other expansions (keeping the strict design rules of the set pertaining to creature types intact and only using cards from The Dark, Ice Age, Homelands, Alliances and maybe Coldsnap if I could make old frame art for it).
What that would entail is this:
- Making a draft friendly Forge Fallen Empires | Open
So, would anyone with coding skills like to help out with making a cool little old set kick ass as much as it could? I'm not demanding anything, I'm not expecting miracles, what can't be done can't be done or can't be done yet, but anything would be really highly appreciated. I tried to make a you tube vid of forge drafting Fallen Empires but I kept running into the Mindstab Thrull bug, or stuff that looks stupid but can actually be fixed and look kick ass, and I'd love to promote this program and present it in the best possible light.
And, well, there's way more that can be done with the set than these glaring things here and the experience with getting IT to work is bound to be invaluable - it's the granddaddy of a million things that came afterwards, moreso than anything other than possibly Alliances.
I could probably reconstruct the design doc to a T, explain why every card is in there, how's what supposed to work, etc etc. I really hope someone'd like to make this work as much as I would. Or at least make the damned Mindstab Thrull not crash the game.
If it would help, I'll make some vids. What the heck, I'll make some anyway, but still... Help?
Last edited by lujo on 25 Oct 2014, 10:18, edited 3 times in total.
---
My Shandalar deck pack folder is avaliable here:Dropbox
Leave feedback on particular decks here: Google doc
Ask for instructions, give feedback and complaints here: Thread
My Shandalar deck pack folder is avaliable here:Dropbox
Leave feedback on particular decks here: Google doc
Ask for instructions, give feedback and complaints here: Thread
Re: Getting Fallen Empires draft to work
by lujo » 19 Oct 2014, 03:41
- Adressed! I'm currently testing w all the cards. | Open
------------
And I've just checked http://draft.bestiaire.org/ and it makes perfect sense - the data there is from drafts by people who only drafted the set once or twice but were essentially "goldfishing" it. The results are skewed towards well known cards and staples rather than cards that make sense, which when applied to the AI causes the strange-ass behaivior. It's not all completely off, obviously, but it definitely needs serious adjustments.
Plus, with less bias from the AI on grabbing constructed cards, a quest player looking for those in a FE draft would actually be able to get them - while getting to play AI that's playing more challenging and sensible decks ^^
-------------
So here's the Bestiaire list, with my comments:
Rank Name Rarity
#1 Aeolipile (Definitely first pick material)
#2 Derelor (Definitely NOT first pick material. High, but not this high)
#3 Hymn to Tourach (Absolutely not this high, it's a fine card, but not something you want as first pick, and deffinitely not if you're going Derelor)
#4 Order of Leitbur (It's a common, it's this high because it's famous. It's very good, but not #4 in the set for draft)
#5 Seasinger (Dear lord, this is a constructed sideboard card, it's nearly useless in FE draft, people were just picking rares high)
#6 Ebon Praetor (This, however IS a black 1st pick)
#7 Order of the Ebon Hand (Same as Order of Leitbur, not this high)
#8 Hand of Justice (This is No.1 in it's color and a big reason to go white, deffinite first pick and higher than anything so far except Aeolipile)
#9 Goblin Grenade (There are only 2 goblins in the set. It's good, but not this good and certainly not this high of a pick)
#10 Breeding Pit (This is a good pick if you're allready black, but also only picked this high because it's famous, not because there aren't better black picks)
#11 Feral Thallid (This is a good high pick for green)
#12 Thorn Thallid (This is another good high pick for green)
#13 Necrite (This is way too high, and the AI doesn't seem to be putting it into decks for some reason, should deffinitely be lower)
#14 Goblin Warrens (Again, this card is good - in constructed, in this set it's terrible. Waaaay too high.)
#15 Icatian Town (This is actually really good, particularly if you're allready in white)
#16 Night Soil (This isn't so good in the set, also picked too high because it's constructed playable, should be way lower)
#17 Spirit Shield (This is the WORSE "equipment" in the set and is barely playable, while the other one is high in top 5 picks realisticaly)
#18 Icatian Javelineers (This is a very high white pick)
#19 Thallid (It's a solid pick, but not necessarily this solid)
#20 Farrel's Mantle (This is really, really strong)
#21 Ring of Renewal (This isn't bad, but I don't see the AI using it and it deffinitely shouldn't be this high)
#22 Thrull Champion (Should be much higher than this, it's better than most black cards above it)
#23 Soul Exchange (This is picked a mite too high. Not bad by any means)
#24 Zelyon Sword (Arguably, either no. 1 or no. 2 in the set, or at least top 5)
#25 Mindstab Thrull (This guy is actually bottom of the barrel when it comes to black creatures)
#26 Thrull Retainer (This is probably the strongest non-rare black card, and also splashable)
#27 Icatian Priest (3rd best white card, as good as the other 2, this guy was reprinted recently)
#28 Elvish Hunter (Actually rather good. He's basically removal, not sure if the AI is using him well enough though)
#29 Dwarven Catapult (What's this doing so low? You see this in a pack, you grab it and go red, and if you don't go red, you grab it and splash red for it)
#30 Elven Lyre (Top 10 deffinitely)
#31 Brassclaw Orcs (Great beater, high pick. Not necessarily this high though.)
#32 Farrel's Zealot (Decent but no way is he better than Icatian Phalanx)
#33 Orcish Captain (Just no. Marginally playable, but dear god)
#34 Elvish Farmer (No, he isn't any good. Was colorshifted in Planar Chaos into Mycologis, and no, he's actually pretty bad).
#35 Conch Horn (Err, not terrible, but not this high)
#36 Icatian Lieutenant (Way higher than this)
#37 Icatian Skirmishers (Way higher than even that, if AI could use banding)
#38 Icatian Phalanx (Oh, god, yes. A beast of a card, especially in this format)
#39 Thelonite Druid (Top 5 in the set, not #39)
#40 Vodalian Knights (Not really good, it's a wall most of the time. This is way too low for the 2nd blue card to be, and there are higher picks in blue than him. Makes a good wall though, and blue does play turtle...)
#41 Orcish Veteran (Fine, but not this high)
#42 Homarid Shaman (No, not this high)
#43 Spore Cloud (This is possibly right)
#44 Dwarven Armorer (Much, much higher. Not sure the AI can use him, but if it could, the only red thing to get before this is Dwarven Catapult)
#45 Icatian Infantry (Not this high good lord)
#46 Icatian Store (Good god, no, none of these are playable or needed)
#47 Fungal Bloom (Well, you don't want it unless you're into fungus, but if you see it - you're into fungus. Even if you only get the common ones it's still worth it)
#48 Goblin Flotilla (Not better than the dwarves, but worth picking up)
#49 Dwarven Lieutenant (This guy + Dwarven Soldiers can dish out a ton of damage, way too low for it's color, and possibly the list)
#50 Orgg (Also probably too low. Not many things have 2+ power in the set)
#51 Thelonite Monk (Should be much lower, no sinergy with anything in the set)
#52 Icatian Scout (This just means people are drafting white)
#53 River Merfolk (This is more likely the correct blue 1st or 2nd pick)
#54 Armor Thrull (Most versatile Thrull in the set)
#55 Thallid Devourer (Too low)
#56 Combat Medic (Oh, good lord, way too low. Top ten in the set, you just don't have to rush it as it's common)
#57 Homarid (Higher overall, but not this high in blue)
#58 Basal Thrull (He'd be better if there was anything to power out, but still - good sacrifice fodder)
#59 Draconian Cylix (Should be much higher, very usable effect)
#60 Goblin Kites (Much, much higher, any red deck and any black deck with thrulls wants at least one of these)
#61 Initiates of the Ebon Hand (You actually need these if you're not mono black)
#62 Ruins of Trokair (This cycle of lands IS playable, and should probably be picked over off color chaff in most cases)
#63 Spore Flower (This thing + Fungal Bloom = hard to get rid of perma fog.)
#64 Delif's Cube (Not this high, no. Still I could see some decks wanting it, but mostly a big no)
#65 Dwarven Soldier (These guys are better than all the Orcs, especially if you also grab a Liutenant or 2)
#66 Thelon's Curse (Not this high, and I haven't seen the AI play it or even sideboard)
#67 Svyelunite Priest (Good lord no, one of the worst in the set)
#68 Balm of Restoration (Quite good if the AI could use it, could be higher)
#69 Homarid Warrior (Higher than this most likely, a 3/3 is big in this set, and it sinergizes with Homarid Spawning Bed)
#70 Ebon Stronghold (The good land cycle, should be around the middle)
#71 Thelon's Chant (Color hoser, probably too high)
#72 Deep Spawn (Deffinitely not this low. 6/6 trample is like a god in this set, and the set also has high tide just so you can cast this with 5 islands out. Should be no. 1 blue pick)
#73 Goblin Chirurgeon (Any red deck wants at least one if not more for the grenades. One of the best cards in the set)
#74 Vodalian Mage (Only reason to ever pick these guys up is if you have Homarid Spawning Bed, but then you need them)
#75 Elvish Scout (Not very playable)
#76 Thrull Wizard (Probably the least useful black card in the set)
#77 Goblin War Drums (??? !!! Every deck bar none wants one of these, except the deep spawn blue. Not "every deck with red", every deck. But just 1 or 2)
#78 Raiding Party (This hasn't been ported and should probably be temporarily replaced with a basic land. Would be last pick in most cases anyway.
#79 Bottomless Vault (Garbage)
#80 Homarid Spawning Bed (No 1. Blue pick, along with Deep Spawn and River Merfolk)
#81 Elven Fortress (You do want one in a green deck, but it's a common)
#82 Orcish Spy (Should never be in a deck if it can be avoided)
#83 Dwarven Ruins (Rather important to fuel Dwarf pump)
#84 Merseine (Not ported but really should and very likely could be. Blue temporary removal, should be much higher than this as you use it to buy time to cast homarids)
#85 Heroism (Color hoser, never a reason to rush it)
#86 Dwarven Hold (Garbage)
#87 Tidal Influence (Safe low pick, you don't really want this unless you're going homarid spawning bed, and it's a bit tricky to play. Complete chaff without the Spawning bed or Deep Spawn on the board)
#88 Icatian Moneychanger (One of the worst cards in MtG overall. Legendarily bad)
#89 Vodalian Soldiers (This is not that bad. They stop tokens, you can sac them to HSB or tap them for Vodalian War machine, and if you're blue you'll probably end up with one or two anyway)
#90 Implements of Sacrifice (This would be better if it wasn't for the sac lands.)
#91 Tourach's Gate (Not the best execution in the set)
#92 Vodalian War Machine (God no, this is actually necessary for blue even if you don't have any merfolk)
#93 Rainbow Vale (Not this bad)
#94 Svyelunite Temple (Possibly the most important sac land in the set)
#95 Havenwood Battleground (Meh, but not this low)
#96 Farrelite Priest (Yeah, not the best card ever, has it's use for pumping the knights but still)
#97 High Tide (Well, this is key to casting deep spawn fast, but since only that deck can really abuse it, it's kinda safe to pick one or two later in the draft. Higher than this though, blue is way underrated in this list.)
#98 Tourach's Chant (Color hoser)
#99 Hollow Trees (Garbage)
#100 Sand Silos (The deep spawn deck might want one)
#101 Tidal Flats (Garbage)
#102 Delif's Cone (Definitely not playable)
Ok, so I'll just sort this list out then and present a better one and see if I can implement it for testing purposes.
Last edited by lujo on 25 Oct 2014, 10:20, edited 1 time in total.
---
My Shandalar deck pack folder is avaliable here:Dropbox
Leave feedback on particular decks here: Google doc
Ask for instructions, give feedback and complaints here: Thread
My Shandalar deck pack folder is avaliable here:Dropbox
Leave feedback on particular decks here: Google doc
Ask for instructions, give feedback and complaints here: Thread
Re: Getting Fallen Empires draft to work
by gecktrix » 19 Oct 2014, 20:36
I really enjoyed this post, very informative and interesting. Makes me wish I had programming knowledge so I could spend my days working just on draft/sealed AI improvements.
Re: Getting Fallen Empires draft to work
by lujo » 19 Oct 2014, 22:03
Ty very much! Drafts are like mini-quest worlds, and a big part of implementing cards is making sure they work well enough within this environment. I'm currently holding fingers crossed for the Merseine implementation and working on the first step to improving the experience - an ideal pick order list for the set.
Then I'll have to figure out why the AI makes terrible 4 color decks even though it has and can use better cards.
Then I'll try to work out how to make a more apropriate and dynamic pick order mechanism for the set. FE isn't so much a "color" set as much as an "archetype" set. Lorwyn, Time Spiral and Ravnica are also this (Invasion for example isn't), so while just having a list and applying it (meaning the AI actually puts the cards it picks into the deck) would be better than what we have now, the having the AI have at least a bit of sense of archetype when drafting FE would be awesome.
What I mean by that is a good place to illustrate a bit of unfairness on my part when rating a few cards above.
See, Goblin Kites is a win condition in this set, but only if your deck is all about 2 toughtness creatures. It's the only form of evasion (apart from River Merfolk). Blue isn't interested in it as it's plan is either Deep Spawn, HSB or Vodalian War Machine, Green isn't interested in it as it's plan is Thallid Swarm/Pinging/Feral Thalid or Thelonid Druid (which makes green interested in Goblin War Drums instead). White has Order of Leitbur which you can "Fling" and pump and Farell's Zealot which you can "Fling" to kill something, but it also has the nigh unkillable banding Icatian Phalanx and ofc the Hand of Justice. Red, particularly red with Dwarves, loves it a lot.
But black has Necrite and Mindstab Thrull, which have pretty good effects which require them to sactifice themselves anyway, they just need to go through. So a RG guy wouldn't want Goblin Kites so much, but for the RB guy or even RW guy (Farrel's Zealot!) they are way up there!
And this leads to my underrating of Elvish Scout and Tourach's Gate - Elvish Scout is actually great with either Goblin War Drums in RG, where you attack but untap someone who tied up 2 defenders and save him while other guy/s go through, or with Farell's Zealot and Farell's Mantle in GW, where you save whoever was blocked, while the other guy goes through and kills something. But in order to make him playable, you have to draft the archetype, which the AI currently can't (and I chose to try to work on a small and tight set like this one because if the AI could be made to draft archetypes here, it would be easier to apply the method elsewhere).
Tourach's Gate is actually great! But if you're going for it, you're drafting Armor Thrull, Basal Thrull, Necrite, Mindstab Thrull - and Brassclaw Orcs, Orcish Veteran and Goblin Kites! You don't draft Order of the Ebon Hand as you normally would. If you're black/green you draft the saboteur thrulls and Elvish Scout and Soul Exchange + Thallid. Thelonite Druid + Tourach's Gate can be absolutely devastating - if the AI could not only use it, but draft it right.
But first, making a more sensible general pick list, and seeing about getting the AI to put stuff it drafts into decks and possibly begging one of the coders to help out with making some stuff more playable by the AI in the simplest of ways.
EDIT: Also, Tourach's Gate makes Goblin Chirurgeon and Dwarven Armorer 2/1 on attack, and those two are very playable even as 0/2 semi/enchantments. Dwarven armorer in particular is great as it you can boost something else's toughness permanently to not kill it when you activat Tourach's Gate, or you can pitch the Gate to it if you don't think you'll find any thrulls. Oh, and you can always pick last-pick Thrull Wizards to feed to the gate. Or just use the gate as a one-off effect, lol. Waaaaay misevaulated card.
I love this set. If only the merfolk weren't gimped by flavour so Vodalian Knights could attack, and if Sveylunite Priest was a tiny bit better in any way...
Then I'll have to figure out why the AI makes terrible 4 color decks even though it has and can use better cards.
Then I'll try to work out how to make a more apropriate and dynamic pick order mechanism for the set. FE isn't so much a "color" set as much as an "archetype" set. Lorwyn, Time Spiral and Ravnica are also this (Invasion for example isn't), so while just having a list and applying it (meaning the AI actually puts the cards it picks into the deck) would be better than what we have now, the having the AI have at least a bit of sense of archetype when drafting FE would be awesome.
What I mean by that is a good place to illustrate a bit of unfairness on my part when rating a few cards above.
See, Goblin Kites is a win condition in this set, but only if your deck is all about 2 toughtness creatures. It's the only form of evasion (apart from River Merfolk). Blue isn't interested in it as it's plan is either Deep Spawn, HSB or Vodalian War Machine, Green isn't interested in it as it's plan is Thallid Swarm/Pinging/Feral Thalid or Thelonid Druid (which makes green interested in Goblin War Drums instead). White has Order of Leitbur which you can "Fling" and pump and Farell's Zealot which you can "Fling" to kill something, but it also has the nigh unkillable banding Icatian Phalanx and ofc the Hand of Justice. Red, particularly red with Dwarves, loves it a lot.
But black has Necrite and Mindstab Thrull, which have pretty good effects which require them to sactifice themselves anyway, they just need to go through. So a RG guy wouldn't want Goblin Kites so much, but for the RB guy or even RW guy (Farrel's Zealot!) they are way up there!
And this leads to my underrating of Elvish Scout and Tourach's Gate - Elvish Scout is actually great with either Goblin War Drums in RG, where you attack but untap someone who tied up 2 defenders and save him while other guy/s go through, or with Farell's Zealot and Farell's Mantle in GW, where you save whoever was blocked, while the other guy goes through and kills something. But in order to make him playable, you have to draft the archetype, which the AI currently can't (and I chose to try to work on a small and tight set like this one because if the AI could be made to draft archetypes here, it would be easier to apply the method elsewhere).
Tourach's Gate is actually great! But if you're going for it, you're drafting Armor Thrull, Basal Thrull, Necrite, Mindstab Thrull - and Brassclaw Orcs, Orcish Veteran and Goblin Kites! You don't draft Order of the Ebon Hand as you normally would. If you're black/green you draft the saboteur thrulls and Elvish Scout and Soul Exchange + Thallid. Thelonite Druid + Tourach's Gate can be absolutely devastating - if the AI could not only use it, but draft it right.
But first, making a more sensible general pick list, and seeing about getting the AI to put stuff it drafts into decks and possibly begging one of the coders to help out with making some stuff more playable by the AI in the simplest of ways.
EDIT: Also, Tourach's Gate makes Goblin Chirurgeon and Dwarven Armorer 2/1 on attack, and those two are very playable even as 0/2 semi/enchantments. Dwarven armorer in particular is great as it you can boost something else's toughness permanently to not kill it when you activat Tourach's Gate, or you can pitch the Gate to it if you don't think you'll find any thrulls. Oh, and you can always pick last-pick Thrull Wizards to feed to the gate. Or just use the gate as a one-off effect, lol. Waaaaay misevaulated card.
I love this set. If only the merfolk weren't gimped by flavour so Vodalian Knights could attack, and if Sveylunite Priest was a tiny bit better in any way...
---
My Shandalar deck pack folder is avaliable here:Dropbox
Leave feedback on particular decks here: Google doc
Ask for instructions, give feedback and complaints here: Thread
My Shandalar deck pack folder is avaliable here:Dropbox
Leave feedback on particular decks here: Google doc
Ask for instructions, give feedback and complaints here: Thread
Re: Getting Fallen Empires draft to work
by lujo » 21 Oct 2014, 02:06
Alright, so, some progress has been made in both theory and practice! In practice I've got the bottom end of the card list sorted out and in any case it should look like this:
=> The color hosers:
#84|Seasinger|U|FEM (This one is a nasty constructed sideboard staple, though, it's the broken grandma of Vedalken Shackles, and could move up for Homarid Spawning Bed reasons, but we're not at that stage yet)
#85|Thelon's Chant|U|FEM
#86|Thelon's Curse|U|FEM
#87|Heroism|U|FEM
#88|Raiding Party|U|FEM (This isn't implemented yet so it can be moved down to the bottom of the list. Still it's a dud uncommon, so replacing it with... something, a token, a promo card, a quest cash coupon, anything at all, at the correct rarity until it's implemented is important)
#89|Tourach's Chant|U|FEM (Heroism is a worse card, but this is here because with Breeding Pit, Derelor and Tourach's Gate in the set, getting stuck with a B upkeep cost is not the best move. Particularly in non-mono black, as it has BB in it's cost :S And the color it hoses generally can afford putting counters on creatures.)
=> The duds / traps:
#90|Thelonite Monk|U|FEM (The "Jazz Mantis", google the cool story of how this card came to be and influenced Nantuko. It's a cool casual combo card, but trying to get anywhere with it in FE limited is probably best left to the player. You CAN mess up someone's mana base with it in constructed with the right deck though, so giving a player chance to walk away with it from a FE draft is kinda cool )
#91|Icatian Skirmishers|U|FEM (This isn't this terrible at all, but the problem is that Icatian Scout and Icatian Phalanx respectively do it's job - give stuff first strike and make unkilable bands, so picking just about anything on color and most things off color is preferable. It's not terrible at its job, but other things are much better at it)
#92|Elvish Farmer|U|FEM (This is actually not really worth drafting in most cases)
#93|Svyelunite Priest|U|FEM (This was an early timid experiment with shroud, unfortunately - a failed one. It's truly not worth playing.)
#94|Orcish Spy|C|FEM (There are enough MUCH more impactful orcs and red creatures in the set, and these guys are a dead draw in most cases. Not worth picking, not worth playing.)
#95|Goblin Warrens|U|FEM (This would be a monster card, but the only other 2 goblins are a rare and a 0/2 common which you don't want to overstuff your deck with, and which is also too useful to sacrifice even to a Goblin Grenade. This could only be activated in a very janky FE draft deck, and such experiments are best left to the Human player.)
#96|Icatian Moneychanger|C|FEM (This guy is terrible. He's a really clunky lifegain "growing" enchantment, and while there is some sinergy with the bomby Hand of Justice, using just about any other white creature for that is much more prefferable - and he's also a risk in case he gets removed. Big dud.)
#97|Delif's Cone|C|FEM (They experimented a lot with the idea of getting stuff other than damage out of creatures attacking, but this card is a legendary failure in this experiment. Some other similar cards aren't, this one is. Never worth playing.)
=> The Storage Lands:
#98|Icatian Store|U|FEM
#99|Bottomless Vault|U|FEM
#100|Dwarven Hold|U|FEM
#101|Hollow Trees|U|FEM
#102|Sand Silos|U|FEM
I'm working on the upper tiers, although having a fixed pick order isn't really the best idea for draft (it doesn't really work like that). Still, the first step IS getting that done, so that's what I'll do, and it can even be playtested as implementing it is probably only a matter of pasting it into a txt file.
The progress in theory goes a bit like this:
If anyone has any suggestions, questions, wisdom, ideas or reasons to yell at me about the ordering of cards within these subgroups I'd much appreciate it. Even being yelled at. I'll take sarcasm, even.
=> The color hosers:
- Info | Open
#84|Seasinger|U|FEM (This one is a nasty constructed sideboard staple, though, it's the broken grandma of Vedalken Shackles, and could move up for Homarid Spawning Bed reasons, but we're not at that stage yet)
#85|Thelon's Chant|U|FEM
#86|Thelon's Curse|U|FEM
#87|Heroism|U|FEM
#88|Raiding Party|U|FEM (This isn't implemented yet so it can be moved down to the bottom of the list. Still it's a dud uncommon, so replacing it with... something, a token, a promo card, a quest cash coupon, anything at all, at the correct rarity until it's implemented is important)
#89|Tourach's Chant|U|FEM (Heroism is a worse card, but this is here because with Breeding Pit, Derelor and Tourach's Gate in the set, getting stuck with a B upkeep cost is not the best move. Particularly in non-mono black, as it has BB in it's cost :S And the color it hoses generally can afford putting counters on creatures.)
=> The duds / traps:
- Info | Open
#90|Thelonite Monk|U|FEM (The "Jazz Mantis", google the cool story of how this card came to be and influenced Nantuko. It's a cool casual combo card, but trying to get anywhere with it in FE limited is probably best left to the player. You CAN mess up someone's mana base with it in constructed with the right deck though, so giving a player chance to walk away with it from a FE draft is kinda cool
)#91|Icatian Skirmishers|U|FEM (This isn't this terrible at all, but the problem is that Icatian Scout and Icatian Phalanx respectively do it's job - give stuff first strike and make unkilable bands, so picking just about anything on color and most things off color is preferable. It's not terrible at its job, but other things are much better at it)
#92|Elvish Farmer|U|FEM (This is actually not really worth drafting in most cases)
#93|Svyelunite Priest|U|FEM (This was an early timid experiment with shroud, unfortunately - a failed one. It's truly not worth playing.)
#94|Orcish Spy|C|FEM (There are enough MUCH more impactful orcs and red creatures in the set, and these guys are a dead draw in most cases. Not worth picking, not worth playing.)
#95|Goblin Warrens|U|FEM (This would be a monster card, but the only other 2 goblins are a rare and a 0/2 common which you don't want to overstuff your deck with, and which is also too useful to sacrifice even to a Goblin Grenade. This could only be activated in a very janky FE draft deck, and such experiments are best left to the Human player.)
#96|Icatian Moneychanger|C|FEM (This guy is terrible. He's a really clunky lifegain "growing" enchantment, and while there is some sinergy with the bomby Hand of Justice, using just about any other white creature for that is much more prefferable - and he's also a risk in case he gets removed. Big dud.)
#97|Delif's Cone|C|FEM (They experimented a lot with the idea of getting stuff other than damage out of creatures attacking, but this card is a legendary failure in this experiment. Some other similar cards aren't, this one is. Never worth playing.)
=> The Storage Lands:
- Info | Open
#98|Icatian Store|U|FEM
#99|Bottomless Vault|U|FEM
#100|Dwarven Hold|U|FEM
#101|Hollow Trees|U|FEM
#102|Sand Silos|U|FEM
I'm working on the upper tiers, although having a fixed pick order isn't really the best idea for draft (it doesn't really work like that). Still, the first step IS getting that done, so that's what I'll do, and it can even be playtested as implementing it is probably only a matter of pasting it into a txt file.
The progress in theory goes a bit like this:
- Stuff that'll need to be done eventually | Open
If anyone has any suggestions, questions, wisdom, ideas or reasons to yell at me about the ordering of cards within these subgroups I'd much appreciate it. Even being yelled at. I'll take sarcasm, even.
Last edited by lujo on 22 Oct 2014, 14:26, edited 2 times in total.
---
My Shandalar deck pack folder is avaliable here:Dropbox
Leave feedback on particular decks here: Google doc
Ask for instructions, give feedback and complaints here: Thread
My Shandalar deck pack folder is avaliable here:Dropbox
Leave feedback on particular decks here: Google doc
Ask for instructions, give feedback and complaints here: Thread
Re: Getting Fallen Empires draft to work
by Marek14 » 21 Oct 2014, 06:50
What would be better implementation of pick order? Perhaps a two-dimensional system where value of any card could be increased or decreased by the specific cards you've already picked?
Re: Getting Fallen Empires draft to work
by lujo » 21 Oct 2014, 11:25
I'm still pondering it, and there's several ways to go about it, but I think one of the better ones means that the array of attributes which define a card for draft (and also limited deckbuilding) in a particular set needs more fields.Marek14 wrote:What would be better implementation of pick order? Perhaps a two-dimensional system where value of any card could be increased or decreased by the specific cards you've already picked?
So that would enable, for example, cards to have tags like "splashable", so a card like Derelor or Icatian Phalanx could be picked but not cause other cards to go up and down in pick priority based on their color. Then you can have a tag called "dud", which would prevent a particular card from ever going up and down, so a card like Icatian Moneychanger would never get priority unless everything in the booster is also "dud". Then you can have a "quantity X" tag which would make that particular card go up or down depending on how many copies the AI already has - Goblin War Drums and Goblin Kites are like that.
Then you could have the triggers which make particular cards more appealing depending on whether you have another card, or which makes certain commons a priority if you early-pick a certain rare or uncommon. Deep Spawn is always an early pick, but if you have one or two, getting 1-2 High Tide becomes a priority.
Then you could have a tag which define a cards color identity (already probably present) so that, say, Dwarven Ruins would go up or down depending on the players color, even though they're a land.
And so on and so forth. There's another issue:
A major problem with a linear set-wide pick list is that not all colors have an equal distribution of bombs / key cards / highly efficent creatures at all rarities. This is, I think, why most set reviews don't use an unified pick list for the entire set, but separate it into Rares / Uncommons / Commons. In a vacuum, if a color has one or two highly efficient commons, it's easier to get locked into it early, and a universal pick list is going to be skewed in favor of those colors resulting in many people fighting over them. This is probably bad for the AI.
If im reading things correctly, the bestiaire list causes the AI to check the booster for certain black commons before it even checks for key rare and uncommon stuff in other colors, which leads to the situation where it will often go for a black common unless it opens one of the White rares. Which probably leads to a situation where every booster is checked for black commons before anything else, which then causes 3 things:
1) The colors are more often drafted one by one as more people prioritize black not because it's the strongest color but because it has the highest positions on an universal list
2) The AI is more likely to get stuck in black (causing legit bombs from other colors to drift around the table as low picks even if the AI can use them), as picking up black cards further increases the likelyhood of picking up more black cards.
3) All the fallout that comes from that, such as blue always being open to the player because the highest pick on the list is an unplayable rare, and it's key cards are all below a lot of commons and the AI's getting 4 color decks because they "fought over" the same colors in every booster, one color at the time, sequentially.
I'm still thinking about how to properly arrange cards in tiers where the AI would consider important rarer cards before the important commons. In any case making a more sensible universal list first is the way to go for now, even if it just means separating all the duds and moving stuff up and down, seeing how that works, then moving onto set-specific limited deckbuilding tweaks, and then moving forward.
EDIT: And ofc, getting as many cards in a set properly implemented for the AI as possible, and getting the AI to be able to put most of them in a deck. This means there'll probably be a bunch of bug reports and AI requests and questions about FE cards for a while, but that's actually a good thing. It just ends up with forge having more properly implemented cards and a more draftable set. It's like a "second pass" on general card implementation
I think. XD
---
My Shandalar deck pack folder is avaliable here:Dropbox
Leave feedback on particular decks here: Google doc
Ask for instructions, give feedback and complaints here: Thread
My Shandalar deck pack folder is avaliable here:Dropbox
Leave feedback on particular decks here: Google doc
Ask for instructions, give feedback and complaints here: Thread
Re: Getting Fallen Empires draft to work
by lujo » 21 Oct 2014, 15:54
So, the next batch of cards on the placeholder "whole set list" should probably look like this (for now):
The "sac" lands:
#60|Havenwood Battleground|U|FEM (=> Feral Thallid)
#61|Ruins of Trokair|U|FEM (=> Hand of Justice / Icatian Town)
#62|Ebon Stronghold|U|FEM (=> lots of stuff)
#63|Svyelunite Temple|U|FEM (=> Homarid Warrior / Deep Spawn. Nice to pay for High Tide)
#64|Dwarven Ruins|U|FEM (=> Orgg, Dwarven Catapult etc.)
One-off stuff:
#65|Tidal Flats|C|FEM (One of if you allready have a decent blue deck going, but no more than one)
#66|Elven Fortress|C|FEM (Same as above, it's pretty good, but no more than one)
#67|Goblin Grenade|C|FEM (If you have no goblins, you don't need a single one. The chance of having enough goblins to support even one is slim, but one is worth it)
#68|Night Soil|C|FEM (This is a constructed sideboard card, and not entirely awful, but more than one is overkill.
General on color filler:
#69|Basal Thrull|C|FEM (These guys are more key than they look, have plenty of sinergy with other stuff, but are still a 1/2 for BB and shouldn't be picked too high. They have little usefulness outside of black, so I put them here to try to avoid other colors picking them too highly)
#70|Farrelite Priest|U|FEM (This guy is a mediocre wall with no combat applications, but ok support for the pump guys and will hold some agrro down)
#71|Icatian Scout|C|FEM (Not that bad, just not a priority and the AI shouldn't overstuff their deck with them)
#72|Icatian Infantry|C|FEM (Same as above, even some sinergy with stronger white cards, but are still at the bottom of the playable heap due to the AI not handling banding too well)
#73|Vodalian Soldiers|C|FEM (Cheap, barely playable blue fodder)
Filler Artifacts:
These are here as an alternative to the niche/duds
#74|Conch Horn|U|FEM
#75|Implements of Sacrifice|U|FEM
Really Narrow Stuff:
#76|Thrull Wizard|U|FEM (The only point of these guys is the creature type, and possibly color hosing, so they're only really good in CERTAIN black decks, where basal Thrulls are still better. But they're not completely unplayable, and should be played in mono-black)
#77|Vodalian Mage|C|FEM (These guys go from dud to playable depending on whether you have Homarid Spawning Bed and possibly 2 Vodalian War Machine)
#78|Initiates of the Ebon Hand|C|FEM (These guys are better left to the player, although having them in black/x wouldn't hurt the AI. Still, a 1/1 for B isn't what I'd encourage the AI to play, but if the AI could play them with pump knights it'd be good to have one or two)
#79|Tidal Influence|U|FEM (This is... It's not bad actually, and it kills you really dead with Homarid Spawning Bed or even Deep Spawns, but the AI would need to know how to handle it, and the wording is awful. Timing it is also REALLY tricky as you can easily kill yourself with it if you're only blue for Homarid, Homarid Warrior and River Merfolk)
#80|Orcish Captain|U|FEM (Can still win any game and might even be fun to play against, but for now let's leave him safely here.)
#81|Elvish Scout|C|FEM (Also, not a bad card, but probably not higher untill the AI can actually use it well, vanilla 1/1 for 1 isn't good.)
#82|Spore Flower|U|FEM (Not bad at all, I'd have to be sure the AI can use it before I'd put it higher, though)
#83|Delif's Cube|U|FEM (Interesting card, but would need AI attention before it should really be picked too high.)
The "sac" lands:
- Info | Open
#60|Havenwood Battleground|U|FEM (=> Feral Thallid)
#61|Ruins of Trokair|U|FEM (=> Hand of Justice / Icatian Town)
#62|Ebon Stronghold|U|FEM (=> lots of stuff)
#63|Svyelunite Temple|U|FEM (=> Homarid Warrior / Deep Spawn. Nice to pay for High Tide)
#64|Dwarven Ruins|U|FEM (=> Orgg, Dwarven Catapult etc.)
One-off stuff:
- Info | Open
#65|Tidal Flats|C|FEM (One of if you allready have a decent blue deck going, but no more than one)
#66|Elven Fortress|C|FEM (Same as above, it's pretty good, but no more than one)
#67|Goblin Grenade|C|FEM (If you have no goblins, you don't need a single one. The chance of having enough goblins to support even one is slim, but one is worth it)
#68|Night Soil|C|FEM (This is a constructed sideboard card, and not entirely awful, but more than one is overkill.
General on color filler:
#69|Basal Thrull|C|FEM (These guys are more key than they look, have plenty of sinergy with other stuff, but are still a 1/2 for BB and shouldn't be picked too high. They have little usefulness outside of black, so I put them here to try to avoid other colors picking them too highly)
#70|Farrelite Priest|U|FEM (This guy is a mediocre wall with no combat applications, but ok support for the pump guys and will hold some agrro down)
#71|Icatian Scout|C|FEM (Not that bad, just not a priority and the AI shouldn't overstuff their deck with them)
#72|Icatian Infantry|C|FEM (Same as above, even some sinergy with stronger white cards, but are still at the bottom of the playable heap due to the AI not handling banding too well)
#73|Vodalian Soldiers|C|FEM (Cheap, barely playable blue fodder)
Filler Artifacts:
These are here as an alternative to the niche/duds
#74|Conch Horn|U|FEM
#75|Implements of Sacrifice|U|FEM
Really Narrow Stuff:
#76|Thrull Wizard|U|FEM (The only point of these guys is the creature type, and possibly color hosing, so they're only really good in CERTAIN black decks, where basal Thrulls are still better. But they're not completely unplayable, and should be played in mono-black)
#77|Vodalian Mage|C|FEM (These guys go from dud to playable depending on whether you have Homarid Spawning Bed and possibly 2 Vodalian War Machine)
#78|Initiates of the Ebon Hand|C|FEM (These guys are better left to the player, although having them in black/x wouldn't hurt the AI. Still, a 1/1 for B isn't what I'd encourage the AI to play, but if the AI could play them with pump knights it'd be good to have one or two)
#79|Tidal Influence|U|FEM (This is... It's not bad actually, and it kills you really dead with Homarid Spawning Bed or even Deep Spawns, but the AI would need to know how to handle it, and the wording is awful. Timing it is also REALLY tricky as you can easily kill yourself with it if you're only blue for Homarid, Homarid Warrior and River Merfolk)
#80|Orcish Captain|U|FEM (Can still win any game and might even be fun to play against, but for now let's leave him safely here.)
#81|Elvish Scout|C|FEM (Also, not a bad card, but probably not higher untill the AI can actually use it well, vanilla 1/1 for 1 isn't good.)
#82|Spore Flower|U|FEM (Not bad at all, I'd have to be sure the AI can use it before I'd put it higher, though)
#83|Delif's Cube|U|FEM (Interesting card, but would need AI attention before it should really be picked too high.)
Last edited by lujo on 22 Oct 2014, 14:28, edited 1 time in total.
---
My Shandalar deck pack folder is avaliable here:Dropbox
Leave feedback on particular decks here: Google doc
Ask for instructions, give feedback and complaints here: Thread
My Shandalar deck pack folder is avaliable here:Dropbox
Leave feedback on particular decks here: Google doc
Ask for instructions, give feedback and complaints here: Thread
Re: Getting Fallen Empires draft to work
by lujo » 22 Oct 2014, 13:13
Ok, the question of why Fallen Empires of all things has been raised, and in my reply in the Card AI thread I forgot what is probably the most important reason (or rather I haven't explained it well enoguh).
The oldest sets can't rely too well on the bestiaire lists for many reasons. This leads to all sorts of things, but the biggest problem with badly drafted Fallen Empires, for example, is that AI vs AI matches devolve into endless ground stalls. This makes playing FE draft (and in Forge there are plenty of reasons to do so), a painful experience - the game slows down as the AIs struggle to keep track of all the possibilities and activations and you have to sit there cursing yourself for even attempting it or cursing the game for making you have to win a FE draft to get a token to play the draft you really want.
And what happens then is that there's some random gamecrashing bug with one of the cards which makes the whole experience 10 times worse as the matches take forever, and if an AI draws a card like that - bam, thoroughly screwed, restart the whole endless grind again. Which then makes the whole thing unbearable.
This is not necessarily so because FE block games have to devolve into ground stalls, but more so because the AI isn't drafting, putting into decks or using cards which are there to prevent this sort of thing (and are often bombs and archetype cornerstones). So fixing a more recent set would be more about getting the AI to draft fancy stuff and make the draft experience deeper, this is about making the draft experience BEARABLE.
And I chose FE, in this regard, precisely because the difference between a well drafted and well played FE draft and a terrible one is unbelievable, so I can clearly see improvements if there are any. Everyone's got their favourite sets they'd like to be infinitely draftale with a ton of skill and variance, but these actually need the most help as they're the furthest from being justifiably called "implemented". And I wanna get them there first.
Ok, so I'll put up the next batch of updates, I've reconsidered some choices so far because I forgot to take into account some junk rares (Elvish Farmer, I'm looking at you), and I'm getting to the stuff that's supposed to be drafted over them.
The oldest sets can't rely too well on the bestiaire lists for many reasons. This leads to all sorts of things, but the biggest problem with badly drafted Fallen Empires, for example, is that AI vs AI matches devolve into endless ground stalls. This makes playing FE draft (and in Forge there are plenty of reasons to do so), a painful experience - the game slows down as the AIs struggle to keep track of all the possibilities and activations and you have to sit there cursing yourself for even attempting it or cursing the game for making you have to win a FE draft to get a token to play the draft you really want.
And what happens then is that there's some random gamecrashing bug with one of the cards which makes the whole experience 10 times worse as the matches take forever, and if an AI draws a card like that - bam, thoroughly screwed, restart the whole endless grind again. Which then makes the whole thing unbearable.
This is not necessarily so because FE block games have to devolve into ground stalls, but more so because the AI isn't drafting, putting into decks or using cards which are there to prevent this sort of thing (and are often bombs and archetype cornerstones). So fixing a more recent set would be more about getting the AI to draft fancy stuff and make the draft experience deeper, this is about making the draft experience BEARABLE.
And I chose FE, in this regard, precisely because the difference between a well drafted and well played FE draft and a terrible one is unbelievable, so I can clearly see improvements if there are any. Everyone's got their favourite sets they'd like to be infinitely draftale with a ton of skill and variance, but these actually need the most help as they're the furthest from being justifiably called "implemented". And I wanna get them there first.
Ok, so I'll put up the next batch of updates, I've reconsidered some choices so far because I forgot to take into account some junk rares (Elvish Farmer, I'm looking at you), and I'm getting to the stuff that's supposed to be drafted over them.
---
My Shandalar deck pack folder is avaliable here:Dropbox
Leave feedback on particular decks here: Google doc
Ask for instructions, give feedback and complaints here: Thread
My Shandalar deck pack folder is avaliable here:Dropbox
Leave feedback on particular decks here: Google doc
Ask for instructions, give feedback and complaints here: Thread
Re: Getting Fallen Empires draft to work
by lujo » 22 Oct 2014, 15:44
I'm not too sure on the ordering of these particular lists and we're in the teritory where the universal list concept slowly falls apart, but it's still guaranteed to work better than the current one, so let's experiment with this for now
Utility Uncommons & Some Rares:
#43|Spirit Shield|U|FEM (It's rare, it's an equipment and is usable by anybody and adds a "playable" to any deck.)
#44|Icatian Priest|U|FEM (It's rather good, but it's not too splashable and picking up too many leads to too many 1/1's in a deck)
#45|Breeding Pit|U|FEM (Is killer with thrulls, but leads to ground stalls, locks up mana and most stuff you can use it with should be picked higher as it CAN work without Breeding Pit, while the Pit is quite lacklustre without other stuff)
#46|Soul Exchange|U|FEM (This is actually the only Pit-friendly thing which you don't want the AI playing without the pit too often. There is a turn 3 Deep Spawn combo with Dwarven Armorer in the set, and I'd love to make the AI able to draft it but that's for a much more advanced stage. With proper AI adjustment, this does work rather ok with green, though.)
#47|Dwarven Lieutenant|U|FEM (You do want to pick other dwarves above him, but if you do, you want to check packs for him before other stuff)
#48|Thallid Devourer|U|FEM (If you're green, this gus is what you check the pack for before other things, could be higher.)
#49|Balm of Restoration|U|FEM (This is better than it looks, but should only be used as to save creatures from dying and is rare so you check for it here)
#50|Homarid Shaman|U|FEM (This is actually mostly worth picking up due to sinergy with HSB and random blowouts against green guys.)
#51|Rainbow Vale|U|FEM (I'm not sure where to place this, it could go much lower, but it oddly seems to randonly work out agaisnt all reason, due to allowing AI to cast stuff in 4 color decks)
Important utility commons:
#52|Goblin War Drums|C|FEM (This is key to breaking ground stalls with proper use, splashable and all that, but also a common common and 2 per deck max.)
#53|Hymn to Tourach|C|FEM (Lol wut? But yeah, it's a BB card and a 4 art common, you want a few in a black deck, but you don't want AI's to go black because they opened a Hymn to Tourach, or passing decent creatures and ending up with 4-5 Hymns and a load of 1/1 vanilla dorks.)
#54|Goblin Chirurgeon|C|FEM (1 or 2 in any red deck is priceless, but you don't really want more even if it would allow for Goblin Grenade, as it's more of a "Seal of Regeneration" in disguise than a creature. Should probably not be counted as a creature while deckbuilding)
#55|Combat Medic|C|FEM (He's a bomb, but also a common and you never really need more than one on the board to completely ruin the other guy's day)
#56|Merseine|C|FEM (This NEEDS to be implemented. But it's a 4 art common, so you'll always get the several you need)
#57|Spore Cloud|C|FEM (This is a huge blowout combat trick, but you don't want more than 2-3 in a deck. Off color people shouldn't be picking them up and moving into green because of it)
#58|Armor Thrull|C|FEM (He's great, but also a 4 art common "seal in disguise" you don't want the AI overloading on, or forcing black for.)
#59|High Tide|C|FEM (This is not really useful outside of Deep Spawn blue and would need a block friendly AI tweak. No rush to pick them up over other useful stuff)
Utility Uncommons & Some Rares:
#43|Spirit Shield|U|FEM (It's rare, it's an equipment and is usable by anybody and adds a "playable" to any deck.)
#44|Icatian Priest|U|FEM (It's rather good, but it's not too splashable and picking up too many leads to too many 1/1's in a deck)
#45|Breeding Pit|U|FEM (Is killer with thrulls, but leads to ground stalls, locks up mana and most stuff you can use it with should be picked higher as it CAN work without Breeding Pit, while the Pit is quite lacklustre without other stuff)
#46|Soul Exchange|U|FEM (This is actually the only Pit-friendly thing which you don't want the AI playing without the pit too often. There is a turn 3 Deep Spawn combo with Dwarven Armorer in the set, and I'd love to make the AI able to draft it but that's for a much more advanced stage. With proper AI adjustment, this does work rather ok with green, though.)
#47|Dwarven Lieutenant|U|FEM (You do want to pick other dwarves above him, but if you do, you want to check packs for him before other stuff)
#48|Thallid Devourer|U|FEM (If you're green, this gus is what you check the pack for before other things, could be higher.)
#49|Balm of Restoration|U|FEM (This is better than it looks, but should only be used as to save creatures from dying and is rare so you check for it here)
#50|Homarid Shaman|U|FEM (This is actually mostly worth picking up due to sinergy with HSB and random blowouts against green guys.)
#51|Rainbow Vale|U|FEM (I'm not sure where to place this, it could go much lower, but it oddly seems to randonly work out agaisnt all reason, due to allowing AI to cast stuff in 4 color decks)
Important utility commons:
- Category Info | Open
#52|Goblin War Drums|C|FEM (This is key to breaking ground stalls with proper use, splashable and all that, but also a common common and 2 per deck max.)
#53|Hymn to Tourach|C|FEM (Lol wut? But yeah, it's a BB card and a 4 art common, you want a few in a black deck, but you don't want AI's to go black because they opened a Hymn to Tourach, or passing decent creatures and ending up with 4-5 Hymns and a load of 1/1 vanilla dorks.)
#54|Goblin Chirurgeon|C|FEM (1 or 2 in any red deck is priceless, but you don't really want more even if it would allow for Goblin Grenade, as it's more of a "Seal of Regeneration" in disguise than a creature. Should probably not be counted as a creature while deckbuilding)
#55|Combat Medic|C|FEM (He's a bomb, but also a common and you never really need more than one on the board to completely ruin the other guy's day)
#56|Merseine|C|FEM (This NEEDS to be implemented. But it's a 4 art common, so you'll always get the several you need)
#57|Spore Cloud|C|FEM (This is a huge blowout combat trick, but you don't want more than 2-3 in a deck. Off color people shouldn't be picking them up and moving into green because of it)
#58|Armor Thrull|C|FEM (He's great, but also a 4 art common "seal in disguise" you don't want the AI overloading on, or forcing black for.)
#59|High Tide|C|FEM (This is not really useful outside of Deep Spawn blue and would need a block friendly AI tweak. No rush to pick them up over other useful stuff)
---
My Shandalar deck pack folder is avaliable here:Dropbox
Leave feedback on particular decks here: Google doc
Ask for instructions, give feedback and complaints here: Thread
My Shandalar deck pack folder is avaliable here:Dropbox
Leave feedback on particular decks here: Google doc
Ask for instructions, give feedback and complaints here: Thread
Re: Getting Fallen Empires draft to work
by lujo » 22 Oct 2014, 23:22
^ Ty and I hope I can do a fine enough job to persuade you to give implementing Merseine a try. Coming up with a nice "Forge Coupon" to put into boosters in place of unimplemented cards (Such as Raiding Party in FE) would also be appreciated to no end. I know I keep restating this, but if people are reading these posts and appreciate the effort it might help seeing those suggestions accompanying the usual read to give it some credibility and an incentive for a coder to jump in and help this whole thing out at least with that.
All right, getting really controversial here.
Here's the meat-and-potatoes of FE draft, the commons which should form the backbone of any FE limited deck. The ordering is particularly problematic, as is the entire concept of having a "big ole set list", as these guys can really pile up to influence what colors someone ends up in. I'm thinking my reasoning is flawed for now, and that maybe a lot more uncommons and rares should be higher than these guys, but then the AI would be getting too many "niche" or "clever" cards and too few beaters and the player could snap these up and always win.
I'll try the following first, ordering them in one "one color each" groups of 5 with different emphasis, and I'll test how what works out for the AI. I'm sure it's not gonna work out too well, but I have to start somewhere and this is valuable research for finding a robust system which can then be applied to other sets in the future. This thing really is the granddaddy of modern sets, moreso than anything up to invasion, tbh.
Most of these guys being 3-4 art commons does mean a good idea might be to move them, or some of them, down below a bit as with 5 (maybe should be 6, really) boosters you can always sorta catch up on them. If that attribute array for draft cards is made a real thing some of these guys should get optimal numbers past which they drop down once you've got a nice core of playables.
The best common dudes:
#22|Order of the Ebon Hand|C|FEM (Main reason being that they're immune to Icatian Javelineers and can gain first strike against most other stuff, as well as block white bands)
#23|Icatian Javelineers|C|FEM (They ARE Icatian Javelineers, and can kill a bunch of stuff on top of being a white creature for Hand of Justice and a soldier for Icatian Liutenant. Mogg Fanatic, if you will, reprinted in Time Spiral, to boot. If you ever wondered why there's so many 0/2 guys in this set, well, there you have it. "Doesn't die to Icatian Javelineers" used to be a thing.)
#24|Brassclaw Orcs|C|FEM (They're actually a deadly beater with Goblin War Drums, Goblin Kites, great when buffed and prevent Orgg from attacking. And laugh at Icatian Javelineers. The AI does need to be agressive and very willing to trade them in combat as they trade well)
#25|Homarid Warrior|C|FEM (The "big guy" of commons, kills anything, can be powered out with any sac land, takes 3 colored mana to be killed by pump knights, and turns into 5 tokens with HSB. Pump this guy via black and he's a beast, band him with a white bander he's a beast, etc.)
#26|Thorn Thallid|C|FEM (Has GG in his cost, and could use some AI adjustments, and looks slow as hell, but combos with Fungal Bloom better than anything, kills anything and playing as many as possible if green is a good idea. He also kills Pump Knights. And Icatian Javelineers.)
The slightly less best common dudes:
#27|River Merfolk|U|FEM (Ok, this guy isn't common, he's RARE, and he has some evasion, but he's here because... he dies to Icatian Javelineers and Thorn Thallid and combos less well with Homarid Spawning bed. Otherwise, a fine, fine aggro pick, just not something you see and immediately decide you're blue. If you ARE blue, you do want him as many as you can get.)
#28|Order of Leitbur|C|FEM (The reason this guy isn't in the first list is because he dies to Icatian Javelineers, and, well, isn't one.)
#29|Necrite|C|FEM (Getting this guy through is a mite difficult, and the AI doesn't seem to like putting him in decks, but he's a 2/2 for 3, a thrull, and if he does go through he's removal. Gotta get the AI putting him in decks somehow, though.)
#30|Dwarven Soldier|C|FEM (Now, he does die to stuff, but he's really aggressive and if you snap up the Dwarven Liuetenant and possibly the Armorer to make him not die to pings, he can dish out a crapton of damage. All that with Goblin Kites is often 5 damage per turn if you have enough of these guys to Fling, or if you keep wining coinflips.)
#31|Thallid|C|FEM (He does die easily and doesn't beat face, but he's a common source of saprolings, and there's plenty of uses for those. Also keep in mind that green likes to sit behind Elven Fortress and Spore Cloud a lot, while it pings you and stacks forests for Thelonite Druid, once you take that into account the value of this guy becomes more apparent. Soul Exchange, Thallid Devourer, Thelonite Druid, Ebon Praetor - they all love the tokens, and if I could get the AI to use Thelonite Monk to lock you out of colors in FE draft that would be very cool.)
The rest of the guys:
#32|Farrel's Zealot|C|FEM (This guy will straight up lock you out if he starts going through. The only reason Order of Leitbur goes above this guy is that it blocks Black bombs, and he doesn't, but a case could be made that spamming banding + this guy is the strongest deck in FE, as you can't block the band, and you can't NOT block the band. Funny thing is, this guy was actually playable in constructed, believe it or not.)
#33|Elvish Hunter|C|FEM (He keeps stuff locked down, and with some AI work he's extra good when supported by Spore Clouds. Green removal, but I'm not sure overdoing them is a good idea, thy're 1/1 and tie up your mana. Still, he can keep 2 dudes tapped down for a long time)
#34|Orcish Veteran|C|FEM (Whether this guy is better than Brassclaw orcs is debatable. He can attack into first strikers, but he can't attack into as many bombs as Brassclaw Orcs can or combo with anything like Dwarven Warriors. Still, no reason not to pick him up most of the time.
#35|Mindstab Thrull|C|FEM (Recently I've begun to suspect this guy is better than Necrite. If you get him in early you can really mess someone up with a 3 for 1 on turn 4.)
#36|Homarid|C|FEM (Silly wording and awful on the turn it comes into play, but not actually bad, all in all. A 2/2 when you untap with him, a 3/3 on the next turn, a 2/2 after that and if he's not HSB'd by then you're doing something wrong)
Here's the list of rares worth checking packs for after the choicier commons have been snapped up (or possibly before, I'm sure I'll reconsider stuff after few whirls).
T2 Rares:
#37|Elven Lyre|U|FEM (My current line of reasoning is that this can be played in any deck, so it probably should be checked for first.)
#38|Draconian Cylix|U|FEM (Same deal, and it can be pretty brutal, could possibly go higher or lower. I'll have to try out different arrangements with emphasizing different stuff, it'll take a lot of testing.)
#39|Vodalian Knights|U|FEM (This is actually a wall in effect and flying is only relevant against blue (no other fliers in the set, and it can't attack anyone else). It is, however, a fine little defender to snap up if you've got a few more versatile blue cards already, but by no means a true incentive to go blue. With HSB even blue crap becomes a white rare. Icatian Town, to be precise.)
#40|Icatian Lieutenant|U|FEM (Well, I'm not actually sure this goes here - white has a bunch of soldiers, so this looks like an obvious build around. The thing, however is, that you don't have to "draft around" this thing if you're white, so you might as well snap it up later than some other stuff. Not sure.)
#41|Dwarven Armorer|U|FEM (Eh, I really need to see if there's a point of this being this high at all. Still, you can pump it with Dwarven Liuetenant, and it's the only discard outlet for Soul Exchange, and I wonder if it's best to always let the player get it for now, until some AI work can be done on it. The AI should be able to put a +0/+1 counter on 1 toughness creatures because of all the annoying pinging.)
#42|Tourach's Gate|U|FEM (This is... This is a build around card. It needs some AI work, as it can basically be a simple one time +2/-1 attack boost for some decks, or a more sustained buildaround for several black/X archetypes. I'm not sure if this should be higher/lower of what, but I'll test and see)
All right, getting really controversial here.
Here's the meat-and-potatoes of FE draft, the commons which should form the backbone of any FE limited deck. The ordering is particularly problematic, as is the entire concept of having a "big ole set list", as these guys can really pile up to influence what colors someone ends up in. I'm thinking my reasoning is flawed for now, and that maybe a lot more uncommons and rares should be higher than these guys, but then the AI would be getting too many "niche" or "clever" cards and too few beaters and the player could snap these up and always win.
I'll try the following first, ordering them in one "one color each" groups of 5 with different emphasis, and I'll test how what works out for the AI. I'm sure it's not gonna work out too well, but I have to start somewhere and this is valuable research for finding a robust system which can then be applied to other sets in the future. This thing really is the granddaddy of modern sets, moreso than anything up to invasion, tbh.
Most of these guys being 3-4 art commons does mean a good idea might be to move them, or some of them, down below a bit as with 5 (maybe should be 6, really) boosters you can always sorta catch up on them. If that attribute array for draft cards is made a real thing some of these guys should get optimal numbers past which they drop down once you've got a nice core of playables.
The best common dudes:
#22|Order of the Ebon Hand|C|FEM (Main reason being that they're immune to Icatian Javelineers and can gain first strike against most other stuff, as well as block white bands)
#23|Icatian Javelineers|C|FEM (They ARE Icatian Javelineers, and can kill a bunch of stuff on top of being a white creature for Hand of Justice and a soldier for Icatian Liutenant. Mogg Fanatic, if you will, reprinted in Time Spiral, to boot. If you ever wondered why there's so many 0/2 guys in this set, well, there you have it. "Doesn't die to Icatian Javelineers" used to be a thing.)
#24|Brassclaw Orcs|C|FEM (They're actually a deadly beater with Goblin War Drums, Goblin Kites, great when buffed and prevent Orgg from attacking. And laugh at Icatian Javelineers. The AI does need to be agressive and very willing to trade them in combat as they trade well)
#25|Homarid Warrior|C|FEM (The "big guy" of commons, kills anything, can be powered out with any sac land, takes 3 colored mana to be killed by pump knights, and turns into 5 tokens with HSB. Pump this guy via black and he's a beast, band him with a white bander he's a beast, etc.)
#26|Thorn Thallid|C|FEM (Has GG in his cost, and could use some AI adjustments, and looks slow as hell, but combos with Fungal Bloom better than anything, kills anything and playing as many as possible if green is a good idea. He also kills Pump Knights. And Icatian Javelineers.)
The slightly less best common dudes:
#27|River Merfolk|U|FEM (Ok, this guy isn't common, he's RARE, and he has some evasion, but he's here because... he dies to Icatian Javelineers and Thorn Thallid and combos less well with Homarid Spawning bed. Otherwise, a fine, fine aggro pick, just not something you see and immediately decide you're blue. If you ARE blue, you do want him as many as you can get.)
#28|Order of Leitbur|C|FEM (The reason this guy isn't in the first list is because he dies to Icatian Javelineers, and, well, isn't one.)
#29|Necrite|C|FEM (Getting this guy through is a mite difficult, and the AI doesn't seem to like putting him in decks, but he's a 2/2 for 3, a thrull, and if he does go through he's removal. Gotta get the AI putting him in decks somehow, though.)
#30|Dwarven Soldier|C|FEM (Now, he does die to stuff, but he's really aggressive and if you snap up the Dwarven Liuetenant and possibly the Armorer to make him not die to pings, he can dish out a crapton of damage. All that with Goblin Kites is often 5 damage per turn if you have enough of these guys to Fling, or if you keep wining coinflips.)
#31|Thallid|C|FEM (He does die easily and doesn't beat face, but he's a common source of saprolings, and there's plenty of uses for those. Also keep in mind that green likes to sit behind Elven Fortress and Spore Cloud a lot, while it pings you and stacks forests for Thelonite Druid, once you take that into account the value of this guy becomes more apparent. Soul Exchange, Thallid Devourer, Thelonite Druid, Ebon Praetor - they all love the tokens, and if I could get the AI to use Thelonite Monk to lock you out of colors in FE draft that would be very cool.)
The rest of the guys:
#32|Farrel's Zealot|C|FEM (This guy will straight up lock you out if he starts going through. The only reason Order of Leitbur goes above this guy is that it blocks Black bombs, and he doesn't, but a case could be made that spamming banding + this guy is the strongest deck in FE, as you can't block the band, and you can't NOT block the band. Funny thing is, this guy was actually playable in constructed, believe it or not.)
#33|Elvish Hunter|C|FEM (He keeps stuff locked down, and with some AI work he's extra good when supported by Spore Clouds. Green removal, but I'm not sure overdoing them is a good idea, thy're 1/1 and tie up your mana. Still, he can keep 2 dudes tapped down for a long time)
#34|Orcish Veteran|C|FEM (Whether this guy is better than Brassclaw orcs is debatable. He can attack into first strikers, but he can't attack into as many bombs as Brassclaw Orcs can or combo with anything like Dwarven Warriors. Still, no reason not to pick him up most of the time.
#35|Mindstab Thrull|C|FEM (Recently I've begun to suspect this guy is better than Necrite. If you get him in early you can really mess someone up with a 3 for 1 on turn 4.)
#36|Homarid|C|FEM (Silly wording and awful on the turn it comes into play, but not actually bad, all in all. A 2/2 when you untap with him, a 3/3 on the next turn, a 2/2 after that and if he's not HSB'd by then you're doing something wrong)
Here's the list of rares worth checking packs for after the choicier commons have been snapped up (or possibly before, I'm sure I'll reconsider stuff after few whirls).
T2 Rares:
#37|Elven Lyre|U|FEM (My current line of reasoning is that this can be played in any deck, so it probably should be checked for first.)
#38|Draconian Cylix|U|FEM (Same deal, and it can be pretty brutal, could possibly go higher or lower. I'll have to try out different arrangements with emphasizing different stuff, it'll take a lot of testing.)
#39|Vodalian Knights|U|FEM (This is actually a wall in effect and flying is only relevant against blue (no other fliers in the set, and it can't attack anyone else). It is, however, a fine little defender to snap up if you've got a few more versatile blue cards already, but by no means a true incentive to go blue. With HSB even blue crap becomes a white rare. Icatian Town, to be precise.)
#40|Icatian Lieutenant|U|FEM (Well, I'm not actually sure this goes here - white has a bunch of soldiers, so this looks like an obvious build around. The thing, however is, that you don't have to "draft around" this thing if you're white, so you might as well snap it up later than some other stuff. Not sure.)
#41|Dwarven Armorer|U|FEM (Eh, I really need to see if there's a point of this being this high at all. Still, you can pump it with Dwarven Liuetenant, and it's the only discard outlet for Soul Exchange, and I wonder if it's best to always let the player get it for now, until some AI work can be done on it. The AI should be able to put a +0/+1 counter on 1 toughness creatures because of all the annoying pinging.)
#42|Tourach's Gate|U|FEM (This is... This is a build around card. It needs some AI work, as it can basically be a simple one time +2/-1 attack boost for some decks, or a more sustained buildaround for several black/X archetypes. I'm not sure if this should be higher/lower of what, but I'll test and see)
---
My Shandalar deck pack folder is avaliable here:Dropbox
Leave feedback on particular decks here: Google doc
Ask for instructions, give feedback and complaints here: Thread
My Shandalar deck pack folder is avaliable here:Dropbox
Leave feedback on particular decks here: Google doc
Ask for instructions, give feedback and complaints here: Thread
Re: Getting Fallen Empires draft to work
by lujo » 23 Oct 2014, 09:48
Top Rares:
#1|Aeolipile|U|FEM (Because it's removal which goes into any deck and gets rid of a variety of stuff)
#2|Zelyon Sword|U|FEM (Being able to get anything to be dangerous is big)
#3|Fungal Bloom|U|FEM (This lets you power out Thallids)
#4|Ring of Renewal|U|FEM (Card draw, slow, but steady and can go into any deck. More than one is not necessarily good)
#5|Hand of Justice|U|FEM (The biggest rare in white, and should steer tha drafter towards white)
#6|Icatian Town|U|FEM (This is highly splashable, and combo's well with Goblin War Drums and several other things)
#7|Orgg|U|FEM (This is better than it looks especially if the AI can power it out with sac lands.)
#8|Derelor|U|FEM (Was played as Ernham Djinn 5-8 in constructed decks for a long time, this is rather great but should not steer the drafter towards black)
#9|Ebon Praetor|U|FEM (This is the black bomb, needs a bit of precise AI but is otherwise sort of unkillable in the format)
First Pick Uncommons:
#10|Homarid Spawning Bed|U|FEM (Up to two copies, this should be snapped up).
#11|Thelonite Druid|U|FEM (So should this, and if the AI can use it well, should go a long way to preventing endless ground stalls)
#12|Deep Spawn|U|FEM (Second good reason to go blue, a deck can support up to 3, oddly enough.)
#13|Farrel's Mantle|U|FEM (This + River Merfolk = you destroy red, + Goblin Flotilla = you destroy blue, + anything with banding = you probably destroy anything as you probably can't block the band and you can't NOT block the band. I think I would've evaluated banding differently had I been making the list from the top, but more on that when I round up the archetypes.)
#14|Feral Thallid|U|FEM (The big green beater, very strong, but does have trouble due to low toughness and is a bit slow rolling without Fungal Bloom. Havign guys with banding helps it on offense).
#15|Dwarven Catapult|U|FEM (This is removal. The AI should pick it, and use it agressively as it doesn't resolve a ground stall, but it does wonders to prevent one if used on one or 2 creatures)
#16|Icatian Phalanx|U|FEM (This blocks anything, is nigh-unkillable, and escorts guys with Farell's Mantle, Farrel's Zealot, Necrite or Mindstab Thrull on suicide missions, on top of being splashable into pretty much anything.)
#17|Thrull Retainer|U|FEM (It's a bit strange to see this so high, but it's sort of priceless as it allows you to be more agressive and keeps your dangerous stuff alive.)
Ok, so that's a first attempt, and there's a lot of stuff I'm not happy with, which should change after a bit of playtesting, when and then I'll nail down the archetypes, apply findings to improve the list, diagnose deckbuilding issues, jot down the in-match play issues and outline the first draft of properties for card evaluation arrays.
- Info | Open
#1|Aeolipile|U|FEM (Because it's removal which goes into any deck and gets rid of a variety of stuff)
#2|Zelyon Sword|U|FEM (Being able to get anything to be dangerous is big)
#3|Fungal Bloom|U|FEM (This lets you power out Thallids)
#4|Ring of Renewal|U|FEM (Card draw, slow, but steady and can go into any deck. More than one is not necessarily good)
#5|Hand of Justice|U|FEM (The biggest rare in white, and should steer tha drafter towards white)
#6|Icatian Town|U|FEM (This is highly splashable, and combo's well with Goblin War Drums and several other things)
#7|Orgg|U|FEM (This is better than it looks especially if the AI can power it out with sac lands.)
#8|Derelor|U|FEM (Was played as Ernham Djinn 5-8 in constructed decks for a long time, this is rather great but should not steer the drafter towards black)
#9|Ebon Praetor|U|FEM (This is the black bomb, needs a bit of precise AI but is otherwise sort of unkillable in the format)
First Pick Uncommons:
- Info | Open
#10|Homarid Spawning Bed|U|FEM (Up to two copies, this should be snapped up).
#11|Thelonite Druid|U|FEM (So should this, and if the AI can use it well, should go a long way to preventing endless ground stalls)
#12|Deep Spawn|U|FEM (Second good reason to go blue, a deck can support up to 3, oddly enough.)
#13|Farrel's Mantle|U|FEM (This + River Merfolk = you destroy red, + Goblin Flotilla = you destroy blue, + anything with banding = you probably destroy anything as you probably can't block the band and you can't NOT block the band. I think I would've evaluated banding differently had I been making the list from the top, but more on that when I round up the archetypes.)
#14|Feral Thallid|U|FEM (The big green beater, very strong, but does have trouble due to low toughness and is a bit slow rolling without Fungal Bloom. Havign guys with banding helps it on offense).
#15|Dwarven Catapult|U|FEM (This is removal. The AI should pick it, and use it agressively as it doesn't resolve a ground stall, but it does wonders to prevent one if used on one or 2 creatures)
#16|Icatian Phalanx|U|FEM (This blocks anything, is nigh-unkillable, and escorts guys with Farell's Mantle, Farrel's Zealot, Necrite or Mindstab Thrull on suicide missions, on top of being splashable into pretty much anything.)
#17|Thrull Retainer|U|FEM (It's a bit strange to see this so high, but it's sort of priceless as it allows you to be more agressive and keeps your dangerous stuff alive.)
Ok, so that's a first attempt, and there's a lot of stuff I'm not happy with, which should change after a bit of playtesting, when and then I'll nail down the archetypes, apply findings to improve the list, diagnose deckbuilding issues, jot down the in-match play issues and outline the first draft of properties for card evaluation arrays.
---
My Shandalar deck pack folder is avaliable here:Dropbox
Leave feedback on particular decks here: Google doc
Ask for instructions, give feedback and complaints here: Thread
My Shandalar deck pack folder is avaliable here:Dropbox
Leave feedback on particular decks here: Google doc
Ask for instructions, give feedback and complaints here: Thread
Re: Getting Fallen Empires draft to work
by lujo » 23 Oct 2014, 11:04
Ok, the AI is definitely less keen on passing playables but it's deckbuilding NEEDS work, some cards desperately need to be enabled, some need their AI adjusted/made, some stuff has to get the priority arrays. 5 out of 7 decks build were terrible even though the AI had fine cards to make much better decks, some deckbuilding moves are hilarious (really you'll laugh when you see them, they're actually funny), and one guy drafted a perfect mono-black thrull deck, all of which ended up in his sideboard in favor of an unplayable 4 color deck o.O
The good news is that it's deffinitely drafting stuff more appropriately, I'm seeing Dwarves, even (one guy had 3 Dwarven Warriors and a Liuetenant in his deck, which is very refreshing). Plenty of stuff to reorder, but first thing is to get the AI to use everything it can without inconvenitencing any coders TOO much, and build decks the way you're supposed to.
I'll post the decklists and a bit of analysis shortly, but first, please, anyone - how can I disable whatever is preventing the AI from putting cards it can't use very well into decks, so that I can actually see what that looks like and where it would be easy to fix? At least having insight into this is crucial.
The good news is that it's deffinitely drafting stuff more appropriately, I'm seeing Dwarves, even (one guy had 3 Dwarven Warriors and a Liuetenant in his deck, which is very refreshing). Plenty of stuff to reorder, but first thing is to get the AI to use everything it can without inconvenitencing any coders TOO much, and build decks the way you're supposed to.
I'll post the decklists and a bit of analysis shortly, but first, please, anyone - how can I disable whatever is preventing the AI from putting cards it can't use very well into decks, so that I can actually see what that looks like and where it would be easy to fix? At least having insight into this is crucial.
---
My Shandalar deck pack folder is avaliable here:Dropbox
Leave feedback on particular decks here: Google doc
Ask for instructions, give feedback and complaints here: Thread
My Shandalar deck pack folder is avaliable here:Dropbox
Leave feedback on particular decks here: Google doc
Ask for instructions, give feedback and complaints here: Thread
Re: Getting Fallen Empires draft to work
by Sloth » 23 Oct 2014, 20:24
You can edit the card scripts directly. The following line in the script will prevent the AI from putting the card into a deck:lujo wrote:I'll post the decklists and a bit of analysis shortly, but first, please, anyone - how can I disable whatever is preventing the AI from putting cards it can't use very well into decks, so that I can actually see what that looks like and where it would be easy to fix? At least having insight into this is crucial.
- Code: Select all
SVar:RemAIDeck:True
-
Sloth - Programmer
- Posts: 3498
- Joined: 23 Jun 2009, 19:40
- Has thanked: 125 times
- Been thanked: 507 times
53 posts
• Page 1 of 4 • 1, 2, 3, 4
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 118 guests