Sarpadia and the FE Draft

[lujo]

Right folks, I'm back.

I'm also sorry I left you hanging, I got a bunch of folks hopes up and then never finished the project of making the FE draft work. Now that some enterprising soul has made "Sarpadia" a world of it's own, I feel it's High Tide , ehm, time, I got back and did my job as a responsible person.

I won't be messing about with pictures this time, that derailed things a bit, although I would very much love it, and have enjoyed the Shandalar setup for older cards. It's very handy to be able to tell a rarity at a glance in draft, and some of the stuff has much better oracle wordings. Also, the print run on the cards is from the time they used to desaturate them, and the art looks much better with a bit of touching up. Oh well.

THE POINT: Get Sarpadia to be a playable little world. In particular, get it's draft to work, because the difference between badly drafted FE and well drafted FE is staggering.

A few years back I put together a pick order list which was more appropriate, but I never seem to have delivered it to you guys, I have to reconstruct it and hand it over. The bestire list is bad and I explained why several times the last time around, I can do so again if anyone wants (or just find the thread and copy-paste).

I see that some kind of framework has been implemented to improve draft for Khans and sets more familiar to newer players, what's it all about and how do I make use of the infrastructure? Just improving the pick order like I did last time produced great results and much faster games with more coherent decks (main point), but I'd love to know what else I have at my disposal.

Can someone also remind me - where exactly do I find the pick order for particular sets so that I can tweak it? And how do I enable all the cards for the the AI again, as last time that seems to have been a problem and I even used that to make the AI make better decks.

[friarsol]

This is the current rankings for Fallen Empires:

Code: Select all

//Rank|Name|Rarity|Set
#1|Aeolipile|U|FEM
#2|Derelor|U|FEM
#3|Hymn to Tourach|C|FEM
#4|Order of Leitbur|C|FEM
#5|Seasinger|U|FEM
#6|Order of the Ebon Hand|C|FEM
#7|Ebon Praetor|U|FEM
#8|Breeding Pit|U|FEM
#9|Goblin Grenade|C|FEM
#10|Necrite|C|FEM
#11|Spirit Shield|U|FEM
#12|Hand of Justice|U|FEM
#13|Goblin Warrens|U|FEM
#14|Feral Thallid|U|FEM
#15|Ring of Renewal|U|FEM
#16|Mindstab Thrull|C|FEM
#17|Zelyon Sword|U|FEM
#18|Thrull Champion|U|FEM
#19|Icatian Priest|U|FEM
#20|Soul Exchange|U|FEM
#21|Dwarven Catapult|U|FEM
#22|Icatian Town|U|FEM
#23|Icatian Javelineers|C|FEM
#24|Farrel's Mantle|U|FEM
#25|Thorn Thallid|C|FEM
#26|Farrel's Zealot|C|FEM
#27|Thallid Devourer|U|FEM
#28|Elven Lyre|U|FEM
#29|Conch Horn|U|FEM
#30|Brassclaw Orcs|C|FEM
#31|Orgg|U|FEM
#32|Armor Thrull|C|FEM
#33|Icatian Phalanx|U|FEM
#34|Orcish Veteran|C|FEM
#35|Thelonite Druid|U|FEM
#36|Orcish Captain|U|FEM
#37|Dwarven Armorer|U|FEM
#38|Icatian Lieutenant|U|FEM
#39|Icatian Skirmishers|U|FEM
#40|Thallid|C|FEM
#41|Elvish Farmer|U|FEM
#42|River Merfolk|U|FEM
#43|Combat Medic|C|FEM
#44|Thelonite Monk|U|FEM
#45|Icatian Infantry|C|FEM
#46|Homarid Shaman|U|FEM
#47|Basal Thrull|C|FEM
#48|Dwarven Soldier|C|FEM
#49|Vodalian Knights|U|FEM
#50|Icatian Scout|C|FEM
#51|Goblin Flotilla|U|FEM
#52|Goblin Chirurgeon|C|FEM
#53|Elvish Hunter|C|FEM
#54|Goblin Kites|U|FEM
#55|Night Soil|C|FEM
#56|Draconian Cylix|U|FEM
#57|Icatian Store|U|FEM
#58|Thrull Retainer|U|FEM
#59|Thelon's Chant|U|FEM
#60|Dwarven Lieutenant|U|FEM
#61|Homarid Warrior|C|FEM
#62|Deep Spawn|U|FEM
#63|Ebon Stronghold|U|FEM
#64|Svyelunite Priest|U|FEM
#65|Initiates of the Ebon Hand|C|FEM
#66|Bottomless Vault|U|FEM
#67|Goblin War Drums|C|FEM
#68|Homarid Spawning Bed|U|FEM
#69|Fungal Bloom|U|FEM
#70|Raiding Party|U|FEM
#71|Ruins of Trokair|U|FEM
#72|Balm of Restoration|U|FEM
#73|Delif's Cube|U|FEM
#74|Elvish Scout|C|FEM
#75|Thelon's Curse|U|FEM
#76|Merseine|C|FEM
#77|Dwarven Hold|U|FEM
#78|Homarid|C|FEM
#79|Implements of Sacrifice|U|FEM
#80|Spore Cloud|C|FEM
#81|Dwarven Ruins|U|FEM
#82|Vodalian War Machine|U|FEM
#83|Svyelunite Temple|U|FEM
#84|Farrelite Priest|U|FEM
#85|Tidal Influence|U|FEM
#86|Orcish Spy|C|FEM
#87|Vodalian Soldiers|C|FEM
#88|Icatian Moneychanger|C|FEM
#89|Vodalian Mage|C|FEM
#90|Spore Flower|U|FEM
#91|Heroism|U|FEM
#92|Thrull Wizard|U|FEM
#93|Tourach's Chant|U|FEM
#94|Hollow Trees|U|FEM
#95|Rainbow Vale|U|FEM
#96|Sand Silos|U|FEM
#97|Delif's Cone|C|FEM
#98|Tourach's Gate|U|FEM
#99|Elven Fortress|C|FEM
#100|High Tide|C|FEM
#101|Havenwood Battleground|U|FEM
#102|Tidal Flats|C|FEM


[lujo]

Right, that's the old one which makes very little sense - actual analysis of why was handled last time, but the forums don't let me search. After quite a bunch of work I got to a much better starting point, I just have to find the old thread and reconstruct it.

Er, how do I access this list in the instalation files so I can refine things further? And also, how do I re-enable the cards which were disabled for the AI by default (that needs a bit of adjusting too, as far as I recall).

For starters I think you're pretty safe with replacing the old one with this:

Code: Select all

#1|Aeolipile|U|FEM
#2|Zelyon Sword|U|FEM
#3|Fungal Bloom|U|FEM
#4|Ring of Renewal|U|FEM
#5|Hand of Justice|U|FEM
#6|Icatian Town|U|FEM
#7|Orgg|U|FEM
#8|Derelor|U|FEM
#9|Ebon Praetor|U|FEM
#10|Homarid Spawning Bed|U|FEM
#11|Thelonite Druid|U|FEM
#12|Deep Spawn|U|FEM
#13|Farrel's Mantle|U|FEM
#14|Feral Thallid|U|FEM
#15|Dwarven Catapult|U|FEM
#16|Icatian Phalanx|U|FEM
#17|Thrull Retainer|U|FEM
#18|Thrull Champion|U|FEM
#19|Goblin Kites|U|FEM
#20|Vodalian War Machine|U|FEM
#21|Goblin Flotilla|U|FEM
#22|Order of the Ebon Hand|C|FEM
#23|Icatian Javelineers|C|FEM
#24|Brassclaw Orcs|C|FEM
#25|Homarid Warrior|C|FEM
#26|Thorn Thallid|C|FEM
#27|River Merfolk|U|FEM
#28|Order of Leitbur|C|FEM
#29|Necrite|C|FEM
#30|Dwarven Soldier|C|FEM
#31|Thallid|C|FEM
#32|Farrel's Zealot|C|FEM
#33|Elvish Hunter|C|FEM
#34|Orcish Veteran|C|FEM
#35|Mindstab Thrull|C|FEM
#36|Homarid|C|FEM
#37|Elven Lyre|U|FEM
#38|Draconian Cylix|U|FEM
#39|Vodalian Knights|U|FEM
#40|Icatian Lieutenant|U|FEM
#41|Dwarven Armorer|U|FEM
#42|Tourach's Gate|U|FEM
#43|Spirit Shield|U|FEM
#44|Icatian Priest|U|FEM
#45|Breeding Pit|U|FEM
#46|Soul Exchange|U|FEM
#47|Dwarven Lieutenant|U|FEM
#48|Thallid Devourer|U|FEM
#49|Balm of Restoration|U|FEM
#50|Homarid Shaman|U|FEM
#51|Rainbow Vale|U|FEM
#52|Goblin War Drums|C|FEM
#53|Hymn to Tourach|C|FEM
#54|Goblin Chirurgeon|C|FEM
#55|Combat Medic|C|FEM
#56|Merseine|C|FEM
#57|Spore Cloud|C|FEM
#58|Armor Thrull|C|FEM
#59|High Tide|C|FEM
#60|Havenwood Battleground|U|FEM
#61|Ruins of Trokair|U|FEM
#62|Ebon Stronghold|U|FEM
#63|Svyelunite Temple|U|FEM
#64|Dwarven Ruins|U|FEM
#65|Tidal Flats|C|FEM
#66|Elven Fortress|C|FEM
#67|Goblin Grenade|C|FEM
#68|Night Soil|C|FEM
#69|Basal Thrull|C|FEM
#70|Farrelite Priest|U|FEM
#71|Icatian Scout|C|FEM
#72|Icatian Infantry|C|FEM
#73|Vodalian Soldiers|C|FEM
#74|Conch Horn|U|FEM
#75|Implements of Sacrifice|U|FEM
#76|Thrull Wizard|U|FEM
#77|Vodalian Mage|C|FEM
#78|Initiates of the Ebon Hand|C|FEM
#79|Tidal Influence|U|FEM
#80|Orcish Captain|U|FEM
#81|Elvish Scout|C|FEM
#82|Spore Flower|U|FEM
#83|Delif's Cube|U|FEM
#84|Seasinger|U|FEM
#85|Thelon's Chant|U|FEM
#86|Thelon's Curse|U|FEM
#87|Heroism|U|FEM
#88|Raiding Party|U|FEM
#89|Tourach's Chant|U|FEM
#90|Thelonite Monk|U|FEM
#91|Icatian Skirmishers|U|FEM
#92|Elvish Farmer|U|FEM
#93|Svyelunite Priest|U|FEM
#94|Orcish Spy|C|FEM
#95|Goblin Warrens|U|FEM
#96|Icatian Moneychanger|C|FEM
#97|Delif's Cone|C|FEM
#98|Icatian Store|U|FEM
#99|Bottomless Vault|U|FEM
#100|Dwarven Hold|U|FEM
#101|Hollow Trees|U|FEM
#102|Sand Silos|U|FEM


It's a reconstruction of the results of the analysis from the old thread. There's kinks I ironed out later, and it needs a bunch of testing (will be done by me, obv), but FE are a small set and getting the AI to play the draft archetypes right also means enabling it to play most of it's constructed right, too. So please stick this in - I really should have delivered this last time around, I was a huge idiot and just forgot I never gave you guys the actual list

I got the AI to draft very visibly improved decks with that list last time around. I'm not exactly sure just sticking it in will improve tings as much as I got them to improve automatically, but they will certainly improve.

This is also without the Raiding Party , which is currently unimplemented, and having it in would certainly make things better, not because it's particularly important but because it's a red uncommon and it's spot is being taken by something else and this is kind of a big deal in drafts.

Right, so what's the new draft infrastructure for Khans I've been hearing about, it'd come in handy here?

[friarsol]

Right, that's the old one which makes very little sense - actual analysis of why was handled last time, but the forums don't let me search. After quite a bunch of work I got to a much better starting point, I just have to find the old thread and reconstruct it.

Er, how do I access this list in the instalation files so I can refine things further? And also, how do I re-enable the cards which were disabled for the AI by default (that needs a bit of adjusting too, as far as I recall).

It's a reconstruction of the results of the analysis from the old thread. There's kinks I ironed out later, and it needs a bunch of testing (will be done by me, obv), but FE are a small set and getting the AI to play the draft archetypes right also means enabling it to play most of it's constructed right, too. So please stick this in - I really should have delivered this last time around, I was a huge idiot and just forgot I never gave you guys the actual list

I got the AI to draft very visibly improved decks with that list last time around. I'm not exactly sure just sticking it in will improve tings as much as I got them to improve automatically, but they will certainly improve.

This is also without the Raiding Party , which is currently unimplemented, and having it in would certainly make things better, not because it's particularly important but because it's a red uncommon and it's spot is being taken by something else and this is kind of a big deal in drafts.

Right, so what's the new draft infrastructure for Khans I've been hearing about, it'd come in handy here?

Generally everything lives inside: the res directory.

This list is in res/draft/rankings.txt. (Search for |FEM)

The cards themselves live inside the cardsfolder.zip file. If you extract it (so it'll be /res/cardsfolder/<subfolders>/<name>.txt), then delete the zip file Forge will load from there instead of the zip.

Basically what you'll want to do is find all of the appropriate script files, and if applicable remove any line that says something like:

SVar:RemAIDeck:True

Looking at the deck editor it seems these are the cards marked unplayable by the AI:

Code: Select all

1 Bottomless Vault
1 Dwarven Hold
1 Hollow Trees
1 Icatian Store
1 Sand Silos
1 Delif's Cube
1 Dwarven Armorer
1 Balm of Restoration
1 Conch Horn
1 Implements of Sacrifice
1 Spirit Shield
1 Zelyon Sword
1 Icatian Skirmishers
1 Thelonite Monk
1 Ebon Praetor
1 Dwarven Ruins
1 Ebon Stronghold
1 Havenwood Battleground
1 Ruins of Trokair
1 Svyelunite Temple
1 Homarid Spawning Bed
1 Goblin Kites
1 Farrelite Priest
1 Thelonite Druid
1 Icatian Phalanx
1 Delif's Cone
1 Icatian Infantry
1 High Tide
1 Tidal Flats
1 Initiates of the Ebon Hand
1 Elvish Scout
1 Basal Thrull
1 Night Soil
1 Goblin Warrens
1 Heroism
1 Thrull Wizard


Not really sure what draft infrastructure around Khans you've been hearing about? You have any context/threads for that?

[lujo]

Ty!

Generally everything lives inside: the res directory.

I do remember some things being somewhere in user-only files outside of the main installation folder, but I couldn't remember whether it was anything related to this project. I use Forge to develop Shandalar decks, and this took porting fake astral cards and some old cards which haven't been ported here yet, so I got confused about what's where.

I was going to talk to you guys about that, too. I'm interested if you would be interested in helping with Shandalar development in a rather minor way.

This list is in res/draft/rankings.txt. (Search for |FEM)

This I found, and checked my old list for a bug I remembered never fixing, fixed the bug by comparing the lists card for card and then posted it.

The cards themselves live inside the cardsfolder.zip file. If you extract it (so it'll be /res/cardsfolder/<subfolders>/<name>.txt), then delete the zip file Forge will load from there instead of the zip.

This I actually know how to do from last time, and I've been fidling with this a bunch whenever theres a forge update, as I have to keep the Shandalar cards and deckpool in it. Which is what I was going to talk to you guys about.

Basically what you'll want to do is find all of the appropriate script files, and if applicable remove any line that says something like:

SVar:RemAIDeck:True

And this is the invaluable info. Does this prevent the AI from drafting it, too, or just prevent it from puting into decks?

Last time around I got some important stuff off that list which helped improve things significantly. Looking at it now what I can say right off is that for Fallen Empires to work I have to test the following until it works:

1 Homarid Spawning Bed (Blue 1st pick)
1 Goblin Kites (Key card for multiple archetypes. There's essentially no fliers in the set, so this is better mass Fling, and it's a cornerstone of both R/B and R/W )
1 Spirit Shield (Equipment!)
1 Zelyon Sword (Second pick overall, also Equpiment)
1 Ebon Praetor (Black's curve topper and natural reanimation target)
1 Thelonite Druid (Strongest green card in the set)
1 Icatian Phalanx (Um, would be a high draft pick in any set even today)

And the virtues of all of those are that most of them move the game forward and away from ground stalls (even Spirit Shield). "Sarpadia" just doesn't work without these, but last time plenty of things were overly cautiously flagged as unusable by the AI and they seem to be used fine, so I suppose things can be done.

Ultimately if these are truly unplayable by the AI I would actually suggest a cube with suitable usable replacements be used to fulfil their function (which is doable to a degree, and at least I do know their function, so I could put some forward). As iffy as this may sound, a FE draft (or block/set constructed) just plain doesn't work as intended otherwise.

Also, I do know the strict and particular design constraints and philosophy placed on the set, so I'm pretty sure I could whip up a respectable "Sarpadia" drafting set which would replace a few multi-art common slots with on-color and on-topic cards. But that's for later I suppose.

Not really sure what draft infrastructure around Khans you've been hearing about? You have any context/threads for that?

I keep seeing this in every new patchlog:

- Booster Draft AI improvements -
This release features improvements to the drafting AI which should be noticeable in the Booster Draft mode including Quest Draft Tournaments. In particular, the AI should rank the cards better depending on the synergy of their abilities and effects (for the cards that have AI hints scripted for them). Currently these deckbuilding hints are implemented for the sets starting with Khans of Tarkir.

If I knew how this worked, it sounds like it would come in quite handy. FE draft is the grandaddy of archetype drafting and certain cards "call" other cards.

If there was such a thing as a "draft only 1" or "don't put more than 1 in a deck" function, that one would be extra helpful for improving FE draft because of the small boosters and the multi-art commons. There are numerous cards in FE which you absolutely want 1 or maybe 2 of in a deck, but you really don't want to even draft more than that.

[friarsol]

And this is the invaluable info. Does this prevent the AI from drafting it, too, or just prevent it from puting into decks?

No it doesn't stop them from drafting them, but it does reduce how early they'll be drafted if it won't play it. I don't know how much of a reduction...

but last time plenty of things were overly cautiously flagged as unusable by the AI and they seem to be used fine, so I suppose things can be done.

Yea that's pretty common, especially with sacrifice costs, since sometimes the AI is far too aggressive in using them. Sometimes those cards do get put in quest decks in the like, since they'll be ok in a finetuned circumstance.

Ultimately if these are truly unplayable by the AI I would actually suggest a cube with suitable usable replacements be used to fulfil their function (which is doable to a degree, and at least I do know their function, so I could put some forward). As iffy as this may sound, a FE draft (or block/set constructed) just plain doesn't work as intended.

Also, I do know the strict and particular design constraints and philosophy placed on the set, so I'm pretty sure I could whip up a respectable "Sarpadia" drafting set which would replace a few multi-art common slots with on-color and on-topic cards. But that's for later I suppose.

I keep seeing this in every new patchlog:

- Booster Draft AI improvements -
This release features improvements to the drafting AI which should be noticeable in the Booster Draft mode including Quest Draft Tournaments. In particular, the AI should rank the cards better depending on the synergy of their abilities and effects (for the cards that have AI hints scripted for them). Currently these deckbuilding hints are implemented for the sets starting with Khans of Tarkir.

If I knew how this worked, it sounds like it would come in quite handy. FE draft is the grandaddy of archetype drafting and certain cards "call" other cards.

Ahh that's work mcrawford's been doing, I think these are some threads that talk about it:

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=18792

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=16494

[lujo]

Thank you!

but last time plenty of things were overly cautiously flagged as unusable by the AI and they seem to be used fine, so I suppose things can be done.

Yea that's pretty common, especially with sacrifice costs, since sometimes the AI is far too aggressive in using them. Sometimes those cards do get put in quest decks in the like, since they'll be ok in a finetuned circumstance.

There's a strangely funny thing about this. Homarid Spawning Bed is rather unique in Blue historically and one of the better reasons to do a FE draft on a regular quest. But if the AI is madly agressive with it in FE draft, that's not really a problem, because FE blue cards were mostly designed to be semi-madly used with Homarid Spawning Bed (backed up by Tidal Influence for attacking with 3/1 tokens). That card absolutely has to work for blue to work, but since blue is so attuned to it it's probably difficult for it not to work as intended

I'm a bit worried about High Tide, though. There's a rather strong mono-blue deck in FE draft which revolves around picking Deep Spawn early and picking up High Tide noone wants later to power out the huge unkillable lobsters. It's a FE classic, it'd be a bit of shame if the AI couldn't pull it off - but then again, leaving some archetypes open to the player is also cool with me.

I might nag folks in the card AI improvement thread, but this might turn out worth it.

Ahh that's work mcrawford's been doing, I think these are some threads that talk about it:

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=18792

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=16494

Ty, I'll try to contact the man.

---

Here's an important question: Is there somebody dictating any particular vision about what "Sarpadia" is supposed to be like as a world? Because I'm kinda like the go-to guy on the net for that set, more or less...

Could I really, as an experiment, put togather an alternative set consisting either mostly of FE cards with a few additions or changes here and there (with explanations) or consisting of FE cards with the extra art slots filled with appropriate additions that would make the set more draftable and the constructed portion better flowing? Call it, say, "Sarpadia", have it as a Fantasy draft available in that world?

Just so anyone knows all it takes is taking a look at the old thread to notice I care about the set, it's vision and reputation, and understand MtG set design and drafting well enough to know what adding a single flyer or even a single common vanilla 1/1 goblin would do to the pick order and general metagame. (The first thing would instantly be a high pick as the only dependable evasion creature in the set, and the second would very likely instantly make Goblin Grenade and Goblin Warrens opressively dominant).

The reason I would consider adding things to FE draft, besides the AI not handling certain things right, is that nothing is keeping enchantment and artifact based stuff in check. So it's a tiny bit too difficult to get out of a Fungal Bloom + Spore Flower lock, Fungal Bloom + Feral Thallid threat or even a Draconian Cylix + any fat creep combination.

[friarsol]

Here's an important question: Is there somebody dictating any particular vision about what "Sarpadia" is supposed to be like as a world? Because I'm kinda like the go-to guy on the net for that set, more or less...

Could I really, as an experiment, put togather an alternative set consisting either mostly of FE cards with a few additions or changes here and there (with explanations) or consisting of FE cards with the extra art slots filled with appropriate additions that would make the set more draftable and the constructed portion better flowing? Call it, say, "Sarpadia", have it as a Fantasy draft available in that world?

Just so anyone knows all it takes is taking a look at the old thread to notice I care about the set, it's vision and reputation, and understand MtG set design and drafting well enough to know what adding a single flyer or even a single common vanilla 1/1 goblin would do to the pick order and general metagame. (The first thing would instantly be a high pick as the only dependable evasion creature in the set, and the second would very likely instantly make Goblin Grenade and Goblin Warrens opressively dominant).

The reason I would consider adding things to FE draft, besides the AI not handling certain things right, is that nothing is keeping enchantment and artifact based stuff in check. So it's a tiny bit too difficult to get out of a Fungal Bloom + Spore Flower lock, Fungal Bloom + Feral Thallid threat or even a Draconian Cylix + any fat creep combination.

I believe that Quest World came from Xyx's work that thread was here:

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=18722&p=197882&hilit=sarpadia+world#p197882

Yes you could really do that, we try to be as customizable as we can here in Forge-land. Probably the simplest way would be to create a new edition, drop it in /res/editions and then add that edition setcode into the world (/res/worlds/worlds.txt), of course with this out of the box customization you'd have to reset it when you update versions of Forge since the overwrite would clobber your change to your worlds.txt file. I'm not the best person to answer questions about Quest Worlds though, I haven't really messed around in that part of the code, and don't play in them myself...

[Xyx]

As part of my quest world development, I went through all the cards to see how the AI handled them. Here are my observations from testing. Perhaps they're of use to you.

Armor Thrull Conservative.
Basal Thrull As advertised.
Bottomless Vault Clueless.
Delif's Cone Not used.
Delif's Cube Not used.
Draconian Cylix Conservative.
Dwarven Armorer Surprisingly reasonable.
Dwarven Catapult Not cast.
Dwarven Hold Clueless.
Dwarven Ruins Not used.
Ebon Praetor Just lets it die, perhaps for the best.
Ebon Stronghold Not used.
Elven Fortress AI uses it correctly but takes inordinate amounts of time to think about it.
Elvish Scout Clueless.
Farrelite Priest Not used.
Goblin Chirurgeon Not used.
Goblin Flotilla As advertised.
Goblin Grenade Not cast.
Goblin Kites Clueless.
Goblin Warrens Not used.
Havenwood Battleground Not used.
Heroism Sacs all creatures.
High Tide Not cast.
Hollow Trees Clueless.
Homarid Spawning Bed Not used.
Icatian Infantry Not used.
Icatian Javelineers Trigger happy.
Icatian Moneychanger Not used.
Icatian Phalanx Does not understand banding.
Icatian Scout Conservative.
Icatian Skirmishers Does not understand banding.
Icatian Store Clueless.
Implements of Sacrifice Not used.
Initiates of the Ebon Hand Not used.
Night Soil Slowdown and crashes. Not even used.
Orcish Captain Conservative.
Orcish Spy Not used.
Order of Leitbur Conservative.
Order of the Ebon Hand Conservative.
Rainbow Vale As advertised.
Ring of Renewal Trigger happy.
Ruins of Trokair Not used.
Sand Silos Clueless.
Spirit Shield Not used.
Svyelunite Priest Not used.
Svyelunite Temple Not used.
Thallid Devourer Not used.
Thelonite Druid Not used.
Thelonite Monk Not used.
Thrull Wizard Not used.
Tidal Flats Trigger happy.
Tourach's Gate Clueless.
Vodalian Knights Trigger happy.
Vodalian War Machine Not used.
Zelyon Sword Not used.

Legend:
"Not cast": The card is not cast. It rots in the AI's hand.
"Not used": The card is cast but its ability is never activated.
"Conservative": The card's ability is occasionally activated but not nearly often enough. (Example: Order of Leitbur's first strike.)
"Trigger happy": The card's ability is activated at the earliest opportunity, often preventing the AI from making better plays. (Example: Ring of Renewal is basically Armageddon for the AI because it will religiously tap five lands every upkeep.)
"As advertised": The AI will use the card as it was ostensibly intended to be used, which may not be the smartest thing to do since Wizards printed plenty of terrible cards way back. (Example: It's probably better not to tap Rainbow Vale, like, ever.)
"Clueless": The AI does not understand how to use this card at all and will probably just waste time and mana on it for no benefit.

As you can see, most of these shouldn't be high picks for the AI, except perhaps with the intention to hate-draft. (Hate-drafting normally isn't a very effective strategy, but passing all the bombs to the player can't be good either.) For instance, you have Zelyon Sword pretty high up in the list (and it's very good if used correctly), but it's useless to the AI because the AI just won't tap it. (At least, not that I've observed after many, many trials.)

All the other cards were fine.

Hope it helps!

[lujo]

Ty for the list. I spent better part of the day typing up a reply, but it ultimately boils down to this:

FE isn't loaded with "bad cards" or "randomly quirky". It's got a strong internal logic and design philosophy and it drafts really well IRL , it's just the matter of the cards not actually being implemented properly and the original drafting list being godawful for a number of reasons. I know the set by heart, and if you woke me up in the middle of the night I could probably tell you all possible notable interactions any card in it could have with any other card in the set. There's quite a bunch. It's just that too many of them aren't working and that needs some work.

An example from the rather long saved draft of the reply:

| Open

Show Orcish captain to any random noob on the internet, they'll tell you it's a lousy card, lol, coin flips, blah blah.

Orcish Captain - Destroys enemy orcs, which is why you absolutely pick him up if you're picking up dwarves and passing around orcs (the coinflip is there to make it cost you random mana to kill an Orc dead) / and you also snap him up if you're picking up Orcs because you don't want him to kill your dudes / you only play him with your own orcs if 1/ you have Spirit Shield 2/ you're RB as you can buffer your orcs with Armor Thrull or Soul Exchange 3/ to let buffed up Orcs still get Fling ed using Goblin Kites 4/ if you picked up a lot of the rather good common orcs in a RG deck with an Elven Fortress , but that's a bit mana inefficient

So at first glance it's a lousy coin-flip card, but if you know what you're doing and you know the set, it's not. It's quite an important card you have to pay attention to. Of course, you certainly draft it when you're on a full-pool quest and run into a FE draft because if you pair it with Imagecrafter or Unnatural Selection that you snapped up elsewhere it just murders whatever you want and makes a mockery of too many decks to count.

Elvish Scout on the other hand ties into a set theme and interacts in an unobvious way with many non-green cards, which is why it's easy to misevaluate it. It mostly does work in RG where you pair it with the agressive orcs and Goblin War Drums. The orcs have to attack madly (and if the AI isn't attacking madly with Brassclaw Orcs it's using them wrong), the War Drums mean they tie up multiple defenders, so you can just untap them while some go unblocked.

It also supposed to help to break ground stalls, which can occur because of how the set is designed to be played "off the table" rather then "from the hand". Attacking into an Elven Lyre or Icatian Scout is one thing when you don't have an Elvish Scout and another when you do.

And obviously it works with the various saboteurs when it can let you get one of them through for some effect.

People who made the set mostly saw things that way, except even moreso. There's a few duds and failed experiments (some too good, some too lousy), but for the most part every card in it is the way it is in every way for very exact and specific reasons and is meant to do very specific things with specific other cards from the set.

There's also odd things there because:

- There's things like Night Soil crashes which were supposedly fixed a long time ago
- There's things missing like the current Merseine bug, and possibly the old "AI isn't agressive enough with Brassclaw Orcs" and such
- There's things which would have been on it if I didn't work them out with Sloth last time around
- 3 out of 5 main blue cards are not being used by the AI, and the rest of blue is mostly built around them
- the sac lands not working means the games look nothing like FE games
- AI is not using either of the 2 red removal spells, or the red mass-unblockable spell which is insane
- the AI isn't using either "equipment" which doesn't mean they shouldn't be high draft picks it means they should be IMPLEMENTED or at least that someone making a "sarpadia" should be pulling on developers sleeves until one of them decides to give them the correct AI
- the AI not being able to use Banding means that the main white way of getting the saboteurs (Farrel's Mantle , Farrel's Zealot , Necrite , Mindstab Thrull or anyone targeted by Delif's Cube , or just any Dwarf Soldier or such pumpable by Dwarven Lieutenant) through is not there, which makes the whole thing a farce
- I could go on, but I really shouldn't, this all boils down to figuring out how to beg a capable developer to take a bit of a look at some of these cards and mechanics and get them to work. Last time around it worked.

What might help is a proper demonstration and set rewiev to explain the mechanics of the set and how and why it's not a pile of random cards, but basically a boardgame. This makes it a great choice for it to have a world of it's own as there's quite a bunch of decks you can make out of it, but first the cards have to actually work right.

I'll write it up at some point.

---

If I would alter it in any way to improve drafting, it would be for 2 reasons - the print runs tend to include two copies of the same card in the same booster, and there is no way to deal with enchantments and artifacts which produces rather strong and somewhat inescapable locks.

[Xyx]

I feel you. My first try at making quest worlds was just making the decks the way I felt they ought to be and leaving the AI problems to the AI coders. World builders build worlds, AI coders code AI. Right? Well... that turned out to be horribly naive, and the result was a bunch of broken quest decks. Second time around I made it a point to only use cards that already had working AI. It's frustrating when you depend on someone else fixing things, but that's the way it is. You gotta go with the flow.

Fallen Empires is full of bad cards, though. I'm sure it's all super nicely balanced for Limited, but for Constructed it was very disappointing at the time, and still is. I still regret buying two boxes. (Or, rather, I regret opening them, since they'd actually be worth something otherwise, presumably because they're good to draft.) Aside from High Tide, Hymn to Tourach and maybe Goblin Grenade, Icatian Javelineers in Pauper, the Orders under Necropotence's reign and the occasional sac land in Commander, none of the cards are worth a second look.

Funny anecdote... Several years back I read a report from a dude who entered a "Fallen Empires Box Sealed" tournament. It's exactly what it sounds like; Sealed, but you get a whole box. The reason was that Fallen Empires boxes were still dirt cheap at the time. Because of that, the guy actually bought and opened a number of boxes to practice for the tournament. He claimed that that Hand of Justice Control was the best deck in the format, and that you were practically guaranteed a Hand of Justice per box. Other good decks were Goblin Burn (since you got like 5+ Goblin Grenade) and Black Good Stuff.

[lujo]

Funny anecdote...

Here's an even funnier one - FE boxes were so cheap due to overprinting that every time I'd order a batch of cards from my dealer, he'd throw in a box of FE if my order was high enough. And that wasn't very high. Sealed is one thing, and playing sealed with a whole box is silly. In draft, Hand of Justice is bomby but it never actually dominates if your playgroup knows their stuff, and drafting goblins in sufficient mass at a reasonable table isn't viable for several reasons. The real problems are getting rid of Fungal Bloom , Goblin Kites or Draconian Cylix .

I'm sure it's all super nicely balanced for Limited, but for Constructed it was very disappointing at the time, and still is.

You know, this isn't actually true. The reason it's rather great for limited isn't becuase it was balanced for limited (there wasn't any official "limited" played back when it was designed), but because it was playtested by a bunch of guys in a manner very simmilar to how they test sets today. Sets today are mostly tested for limited and block constructed and standard just a tiny bit. And it's a tight, small set, so FE limited is very much the same thing as FE constructed except a bit more varied.

The reason it might have been dissapointing was because it's designers had an eye for balance, so they tried to do away with a lot of things which were later deemed too good anyway, but were staple at the time. They went and made you work for your removal and evasion, and since it was a set with a lot of creatures operating on the board most of it couldn't translate to tourney-level constructed... because nothing sane could. Removal was just too good, for one thing, and FE still had stronger cards on average than anything from Arabian Nighs (excluding them) to Alliances (which were basically a straight-up big power creep spike for the median card power).

Also, the cards were hard to read, and a lot of players were young.

Fallen Empires is full of bad cards, though.

And this, again, isn't true at all. It's got a few bad cycles, mostly design mistakes, a bunch of mediocre cards (better ones and fewer truly useless ones than sets of it's age), cards which had been improved upon in small ways a million times (meaning they inspired tons of stuff). And it's got really great cards which were simply never legal in any format which wasn't dominated by design mistakes, but would've been all over the place otherwise.

The "Only Hymn to Tourach and High Tide and maybe something or the other were good cards" is a myth and if someone is saying that they not only don't know what was going on, they don't even know what they're looking at.

Here's your playables:

Undisputably Good

Icatian Javelineers (Anyone disputing that this card shaped metas is talking nonsense. This kills mana dorks and leaves behid a body which gets pumped by Crusade , it was used, and worse cards than it based on it were also used. It was a holy terror.)
Seasinger (This is what Vedalken Shackles was before it was Vedalken Shackles , and you better believe it was used. Overlaps with several other categories. Reprinted recently.)
Hymn to Tourach (Much like Icatian Javelineers , worse cards than it based on it were used and cherished. It was a holy terror and noone who's opened a box of FE has regretted it as long as they got to play these things.)
Soul Exchange (Nothing at all wrong with this card and there never was. Reprinted recently.)
Goblin Chirurgeon (This is a very, very strong card. The fact that he isn't actually the clear strongest card in the set says that there are some really absurdly strong things in it.)
Goblin Grenade (One mana, one goblin - 1/4 of someone's life. Common. You could, and I certainly have, drop people down 10 life for 2 mana and 2 goblins you wouldn't need anymore since you've won. And there weren't nearly as many goblins as there were later.)
Spore Cloud (Was Tangle before Tangle powercreeped the effect up. None the less, Tangle took a long time to arrive, and this just made aggro cry and will just never stop being a fine card)
Thelonite Druid (Yes, MtG gets a dozen new mana sinks and things to do with a lot of lands out, but this guy always had a great capacity to just wtf murder people out of nowhere.)
Aeolipile (Protection weenies were a menace, and this thing was colorless burn. It saw plenty of use.)

Used in competitive decks:

Sac Lands (Never was anything wrong with them, they got power creeped up in Masques, but they also got color-shifted in Invasion and they got made plain mana-fixers and graveyard fillers in Oddysey all used in competitive decks)
Goblin Kites (You want to fling a bunch of low-toughness red dudes at the other guy? There you go. 50% chance they live, too. You can also ask the person you're up against how much money did he pay for Moat. Also gets Ball Lightning through first strike.)
Derelor (Was certainly used as Ernham Djinn 5-8 in various decks. Never in black decks, but in places where the penalty was negligable.)
Order of the Ebon Hand (Black Pump knight, popular black weenie, couldn't get blocked by white or die to Icatian Javelineers which was considered a good trait for an agressive dude)
Order of Leitbur (White Pump knight, popular white weenie, culdn't get blocked by black guys, mana sink, sucked a bit in the mirror)
Farrel's Zealot (Banding. No, really, this was played. T1 Benalish Hero, T2 Crusade, T3 Farrel's Zealot. You block the band - you're screwed, you don't block the band - you're screwed.)
High Tide (Honestly, this card was only broken because of the very specific way Urza's "free" spells worked. Overlaps with "became really good". It was made for FE "limited".)

Kitchen Table / Quest in Progress / Was Fine:

Spirit Shield and Zelyon Sword (Were equipment, and as long as things werent overly competitive it was usable as it's, well, equipment)
Elven Lyre (Is a clorless Seal of Strength. Was certainly playable.)
Conch Horn (Was colorless card draw, of sorts, and is today considered the most powerful in it's cycle as it's a colorless way to manipulate Miracles)
Thelonite Monk (Well, it used to be either forestwalk against anyone if you want unblockable green dudes, or a mana denial lock-out if you've got tokens.)
Fungal Bloom (Yes, it is niche, but combining it with Spore Flower is and was Turbo Fog for tapping GGGG.)
Elvish Hunter (Hey, it keeps two guys tapped down as long as it's in play, it's better than it looks)
Orcish Captain (It's undisputably good, but it needs to be combo'd up with anything that changes creature types on the other side, so it's more of a case of "became good" rather than "was always good", even though it's quite mean in draft.)
Goblin Warrens (It's 2R for a goblin token, but back in the day having a straightforward way to make any kind of tokens was a big deal. Took the card advantage price out of Goblin Grenade)
Goblin War Drums (Since when is giving all your guys menace a bad thing? Reprinted a lot.)
Homarid Spawning Bed (Always a terror of kitchen tables, but it became downright ugly when faeries were printed in Lorwyn. They were never available in a non-degenerate format, if they were, it would likely be really widely known.)
Dwarven Armorer (You discard something to him, and then you reanimate it. Discarding things was actually quite a pain in the nethers way back in the day, and you could put togather a reanimator in FE draft all along with him and Soul Exchange. There are a million other discard outlets now, but this wasn't always the case.)
Brassclaw Orcs (Mediocre and unimpressive... but wth, it used to be a fine beater you could then chuck to Goblin Kites)
Tourach's Gate (Either it's a Sorcery +2/-1 for your dudes for 1BB and tapping a land, or you can sacrifice a Thrull to keep it going for a bunch. Depending on what creatures you were playing this was easily a fine card.)
Thrull Retainer (Totem Armor , cheap and nice , what's not to like)
Mindstab Thrull (Mindstab, basically a love leter to this card, was a fine card much later. This guy was around when Dark Ritual was around, and things could get hairy for the opponent if at any point turns 1-4 they got hit (3 for 5 with Hymn to Tourach). Also, as opposed to a lot of discard, he was a dude if you drew him later which is kinda nice.)
Initiates of the Ebon Hand (Laundering mana into black was a sought after thing way back in the day as plenty of black things you'd want to play was prone to screw you over with double or even triple mana symbols. This was used more than one would think.)
Breeding Pit (Back in the day, making a token every turn was a rare and precious thing, and Breeding Pit was a sought after card)
Armor Thrull (Was always a fine card - stopped aggro, made your dude beat up the other guy's dude, could be sacrificed to Soul Exchange , lovely card).
Vodalian War Machine (Believe it or not, this used to be used as a budget option for blocking and killing. Because of it's low power it was easy to make it unblockable in several ways and then have it hit for a lot. Overlapping with "became good", it kills someone instantly with intruder alarm and that merfolk which spawns tokens when you tap it.)
Deep Spawn (Way back in the day, he was a rather good budget reanimation option. He could dodge Terror and Swords to Plowshares , was bigger than anything that was likely to see play, trampled and filled the graveyard. Handily came in the same set as Soul Exchange.)
Icatian Phalanx (Yes it's worse than Serra Angel , but a 2/4 banding guy was pretty nasty thing.)
Farrel's Mantle (Put it on a Birds of Paradise turn 2, if you untap with them alive the other guy is in serious trouble if his plan involves creatures.)
Combat Medic (Was and is insuferable. It was slow, but it can completely shut the opponent down on it's own. It's also the main player of the Hand of Justice limited strategies)

And the cards I haven't mentioned mostly weren't bad, just mediocre, even tough there were genuinely bad ones like the original storage lands. Or were used fine enough and do tons of work in draft, but look a bit funny now (like most things do). But saying Fallen Empires was bad because it didn't radically stir up the metagame dominated by vintage staples... that just means most cards in it are in the same category of pretty much 95% or more of all MtG cards ever. And it has a fine count of cards which did shake it up, and an even nicer one of cards which would've played ball in any standard. This they actually did do via their slightly tweaked or slightly better templated or slightly powered up clear descendants.

Anywho, I gotta write the set up, how it's supposed to work for limited and block, make a nice little map of what's being put in decks and what isn't and where it's not going the way it should be. If anyone decides to help out by enabling things that can be enabled and looking into the things that just need some AI tweaks that'd be swell. If limited works as intended, "set constructed" is just a matter of making constructed decks out of all the archetypes.

[Xyx]

I didn't mean to call your baby ugly. It's just that Fallen Empires is forever branded in my mind as a contender for the Worst Set Ever. You speak of power creep, but there was never actually a time when it wasn't a contender for that title.

The set has decent average card quality, but all of that is in the commons. The fact that you can buy the entire set for $50 tells you all you need to know about the other cards.

FE boxes were so cheap due to overprinting

Not just to overprinting. If the boxes were loaded with chase cards (like all the other sets at the time), they wouldn't be given away for free. Wizards didn't accidentally add an extra zero when they sent their numbers to the printers. They printed what they expected to sell based on their track record.

The reason it might have been dissapointing was because it's designers had an eye for balance, so they tried to do away with a lot of things which were later deemed too good anyway, but were staple at the time.

True, but unfortunately nobody remembers a set for what it didn't have.

Hymn to Tourach (Much like Icatian Javelineers , worse cards than it based on it were used and cherished. It was a holy terror and noone who's opened a box of FE has regretted it as long as they got to play these things.)

I played those Hymns but I still regret opening those boxes. :p

Spore Cloud (Was Tangle before Tangle powercreeped the effect up.

I actually put Spore Cloud into a Pauper deck (Jace's Erasure Mill), but who still plays Tangle? If even the "powercreeped" version has fallen out of use, that's not a good sign.

Farrel's Zealot (Banding. No, really, this was played. T1 Benalish Hero, T2 Crusade, T3 Farrel's Zealot. You block the band - you're screwed, you don't block the band - you're screwed.)

Crusade is the good card here.

Elven Lyre (Is a clorless Seal of Strength. Was certainly playable.)

It's an inefficient on-board trick.

Conch Horn (Was colorless card draw, of sorts, and is today considered the most powerful in it's cycle as it's a colorless way to manipulate Miracles)

Does anyone actually play this card, in Miracles or otherwise?

Elvish Hunter (Hey, it keeps two guys tapped down as long as it's in play, it's better than it looks)

It only keeps one guy down. You can buffer one use, but that's it.

Homarid Spawning Bed (Always a terror of kitchen tables, but it became downright ugly when faeries were printed in Lorwyn. They were never available in a non-degenerate format, if they were, it would likely be really widely known.)

Can you explain what this has to do with faeries? Or why this card is good?

Thrull Retainer (Totem Armor , cheap and nice , what's not to like)

If only it was totem armor. At the time, Wizards threw around the word "bury" like it was confetti.

Armor Thrull (Was always a fine card - stopped aggro, made your dude beat up the other guy's dude, could be sacrificed to Soul Exchange , lovely card).

We're talking about a 3-mana 1/3 with an unremarkable ability here.

Vodalian War Machine (Believe it or not, this used to be used as a budget option for blocking and killing. Because of it's low power it was easy to make it unblockable in several ways and then have it hit for a lot.

It's also a good way to get all your dudes killed. I haven't seen it win any games but I've certainly seen it lose.

Icatian Phalanx (Yes it's worse than Serra Angel , but a 2/4 banding guy was pretty nasty thing.)

If you couldn't afford a Serra Angel, you shouldn't have bought a Fallen Empires booster!

Farrel's Mantle (Put it on a Birds of Paradise turn 2, if you untap with them alive the other guy is in serious trouble if his plan involves creatures.)

But what deck scoops to a 0/1 on turn 3? Wasn't every deck at the time loaded with removal in case of turn-1 Hypnotic Specter?

But saying Fallen Empires was bad because it didn't radically stir up the metagame dominated by vintage staples...

But that's what Magic was like in 1994. And my meta didn't even have any Power 9 at the time.

"set constructed" is just a matter of making constructed decks out of all the archetypes.

I fear that's a bit of a pipe dream. Which archetypes already work? Is there anything I could still add to my quest world? I would really appreciate your insight!

[dingbat1]

I didn't mean to call your baby ugly. It's just that Fallen Empires is forever branded in my mind as a contender for the Worst Set Ever.

The sad thing is that this is true despite it being one of the better sets of the early era.

[lujo]

I didn't mean to call your baby ugly. It's just that Fallen Empires is forever branded in my mind as a contender for the Worst Set Ever. You speak of power creep, but there was never actually a time when it wasn't a contender for that title.

The set has decent average card quality, but all of that is in the commons. The fact that you can buy the entire set for $50 tells you all you need to know about the other cards.

You could get it for cheap because these are the numbers of the cards printed:

Alpha + Beta: 10 million
Unlimited: 40 million
Arabian Nights: 5 million
Antiquities: 15 million
Legends: 35 million
The Dark: 75 million
Fallen Empires: over 350 million

If a set has high average card quality, at a time when there aren't all that many MtG cards around, it means the average cards is better than most MtG cards in existance. Which it actually was, and so it can't be a contender for the worst set ever. Legends had a low percentage of usable cards and lower overall power level, but it was 10X rarer, and the Dark was 5X rarer, while Antiquities was, what, 30 times as rare? None of those sets were much better, or even at all better than FE. The "it has no chase cards" / "I can buy the whole set for 50$" thing is a fallacy, because if FE had chase cards in they would still be 30X more common than anything from Antiquities. If Antiquities was as overprinted as FE, people would be lining the walls with Mishra's Workshops , and if Legends was as overprinted "everybody has a million Mana Drain" would be a meme.

But it's also pure nonsense because what does "where the value is" actually matter to players? Throughtout MtG history sets which had the good stuff at common and uncommon created bursts and surges of new players and playgroups, while sets which had the value at the top or opressive standouts dominating the metagame just drove them away. Playables being anywhere except common is awful for players, and has nothing to do with set quality (except when it comes to drafting). It's just a sales thing. Most people who are opening a booster would rather open a booster with a high chance of getting multiple playable cards than a low chance of opening something really broken. This only becomes a problem once everyone has all the cards they want in a set, because people stop buying boosters. And that's only a problem for WotC, but that's mostly true for every MtG set.

What saved the game overall from that constant problem was the invention and popularization of draft, and if draft existed back then and was sanctioned FE would have easily been remembered as the best of the old sets. Not even overprinting would be a problem, precisely because the huge supply making it cheap to draft would mean it would have been the most drafted set ever, and as I keep saying, no old set drafts quite like it.

FE boxes were so cheap due to overprinting

Not just to overprinting. If the boxes were loaded with chase cards (like all the other sets at the time), they wouldn't be given away for free. Wizards didn't accidentally add an extra zero when they sent their numbers to the printers. They printed what they expected to sell based on their track record.

Well, the chase cards from those old sets were mostly ludicrous, and history has shown that there's no room for much of anything if you don't cordon them off. The non-chase cards were on average worse than ones in FE or outright unusable (or insanely niche). The kind of stuff that was going on at the "chase" level was the kind of stuff that has driven away swaths of the playerbase every time it was attempted or stumbled into afterwards (Urza's Block , random mishaps like Affinity ). It always sold very well, no mistake, but it tended to make the game unplayable and degenerate.

The reason it might have been dissapointing was because it's designers had an eye for balance, so they tried to do away with a lot of things which were later deemed too good anyway, but were staple at the time.

True, but unfortunately nobody remembers a set for what it didn't have.

But since we have an electronic platform where what people remember or don't remember doesn't matter, where you can see for yourself if all the cards work as intended and the thing got properly re-templated, no reason to insist on a meme and miss out on a rather good set. It got screwed over by history, and if all the cards worked it would actually play better on a computer than it did in RL, too.

Spore Cloud (Was Tangle before Tangle powercreeped the effect up.

I actually put Spore Cloud into a Pauper deck (Jace's Erasure Mill), but who still plays Tangle? If even the "powercreeped" version has fallen out of use, that's not a good sign.

It's fallen out of use because it wasn't legal anywhere where it could've been used, same what happened with a bunch of FE (and not just FE) cards. If you need a mean fog, they don't really come much meaner. It's also been upstaged by Moment's Peace which is also a 2-turn Fog variant - more expensive, more flexible and more tutorable.

But saying it's a bad card, or even that it was, and not worth a second glance, or unused... It's just not true. There wasn't anything up untill Constant Mists that did anything simmilar, and Tangle shut down aggro in the days of Flametongue Kavu , Blastoderm and Fires of Yavimaya , wich was quite some aggro.

Farrel's Zealot (Banding. No, really, this was played. T1 Benalish Hero, T2 Crusade, T3 Farrel's Zealot. You block the band - you're screwed, you don't block the band - you're screwed.)

Crusade is the good card here.

No, Crusade is the more famous card there, and one which screws you up in the mirror as opposed to the other two which don't and are rather underappreciated cards these days but weren't back then.

Elven Lyre (Is a clorless Seal of Strength. Was certainly playable.)

It's an inefficient on-board trick.

It's not meant to be a trick if it's on-board, is it? Aeolipile is inefficient on-board burn and Serrated Arrows were inefficient 1 counter per turn removal but they were certainly played and playable.

Conch Horn (Was colorless card draw, of sorts, and is today considered the most powerful in it's cycle as it's a colorless way to manipulate Miracles)

Does anyone actually play this card, in Miracles or otherwise?

If it was available as part of block or standard with miracles in it, do you really, honestly think it would not be used? It reads: "1, sac: Draw two, set up a miracle from your hand." It's not a very good card overall, but it got better, much like Brainstorm started out looking a bit meh but then got progresively more nuts as time progressed.

Homarid Spawning Bed (Always a terror of kitchen tables, but it became downright ugly when faeries were printed in Lorwyn. They were never available in a non-degenerate format, if they were, it would likely be really widely known.)

Can you explain what this has to do with faeries? Or why this card is good?

You do understand Bitterblossom is "good" card, yes? It's very similar to it.

You pay three mana at any time, and you sacrifice a blue creature to get tokens equal to it's mana cost. Blue creatures tend to have a higher mana cost than is their power. As long as you counter the board wipes, any time anything of yours would die to targeted removal (or back in the day trade in combat) - you got a bunch of guys to keep swarming with.

What faeries do is ideal, you can play them whenever and they have CiP abilities AND they generally have a hefty stats-to-cost disparity because of the flash and the evasion and the whathaveyou. You just sit back, draw-go , play your faeries and casually turn them into vawes of tokens. It's kitchen table, because, again, it simply was never available in a non-degenerate format alongside Faeries.

Alternatively use it with suspend cards like Veiling Oddity , Errant Ephemeron or why-ever-did-they-call-him-that-must-be-pointless-nostalgia Viscerid Deepwalker . The point, again, isn't that you have to sacrifice them immediately , but that you suspended them, plopped this thing down, do your controll thing and when the guys pop in and the other guy goes to remove them they turn into a mass of tokens.

Used to be a fun casual thing to do with High Tide and Urza's Legacy free dudes, too, if you wanted to play them but didn't want to bore people with more deadly combo shenannigans.

Thrull Retainer (Totem Armor , cheap and nice , what's not to like)

If only it was totem armor. At the time, Wizards threw around the word "bury" like it was confetti.

That's true, but not everyting lobbed at you was Wrath of God , Swords to Plowshares or Incinerate. I enjoyed bringing it into black-on-black mirror as it was annoying to play against.

Armor Thrull (Was always a fine card - stopped aggro, made your dude beat up the other guy's dude, could be sacrificed to Soul Exchange , lovely card).

We're talking about a 3-mana 1/3 with an unremarkable ability here.

3 mana black 1/3 stopped a lot of aggro, and what it didn't stop most other things wouldn't stop either. It had something to do if a bolt got lobbed at it, and also if a bolt got lobbed at anything else, whereupon that something else would henceforth be know as "that thing that's quite difficult to bolt now, and also to burn out otherwis, yes, and is not exactly easy to tackle in combat with what I've got here, and hmmm, it seems to be able to block everything I've got, and you know what, I better just Wrath of God ".

If it sounds far fetched, well, you haven't played with or against Armor Thrull back in the day. In ye olde days the low overall card pool with clear standouts meant there was a lot of mirrors (or effective mirrors), and +1/+2 counter meant your dude was strictly better than thier dude. If it comes attached to a nice little blocker, what's not to like? Oh, and it sacrifices well for Soul Exchange , too, if you want to bring back the guy you ritualed out on turn 1, but with +2/+2 on it this time.

I also saw some Basal Thrull bashing. You play Dark Ritual to bring out 3 mana stuff on turn 1 and you play Basal Thrull to bring out 5 mana stuff on turn 3 or 6 mana stuff on turn 4. The rest of your deck makes use of the tons of ramp, including the amazing and card-disadvantageous opportunity to bring a 7 mana monster out on turn 3 if you just drew both. Not that there was all that much to bring out, granted. Or you dump all the mana into a Drain Life somewhere down the road. What is, in fact, the problem? You mean you guys didn't do it?

Vodalian War Machine (Believe it or not, this used to be used as a budget option for blocking and killing. Because of it's low power it was easy to make it unblockable in several ways and then have it hit for a lot.

It's also a good way to get all your dudes killed. I haven't seen it win any games but I've certainly seen it lose.

Idk. A card has a downside, it's in the color of counterspells and bounce. Someone gets his guys killed and it doesn't involve the words "split second", maybe crewing vehicles just isn't for them? Or...

Activated hexproof was introduced in Fallen Empires , and while it sucks it sucks because the guys introducing it figured you can't just stick hexproof on stuff without a downside. Which is rather reasonable, when you get down to it, and the introduction of actual hexproof has been controversial and the ability is grumbled about every time it messes up a limited environment. Homarid Warrior was a bit too large to play competitively, but Deep Spawn was regarded as a good reanimation target because, well, among other things it had hexproof. Is being taken out for 2 turns to defend from Terror , Swords to Plowshares or the like a fair downside for hexproof ? Who knows, but it sure cuts down on the "Yeah and then they just StP it" (Young wipper-snappers might know them as "Dies to doom blade") arguments like what was just presented up there.

So when you look at Svyelunite Priest and wonder "How is that ability supposed to ever be useful?" there are 2 answers. 1 is that if you're about to get silly with your merfolk vehicle, but don't want it lol pwned by the ubiquous too good spot removal, then giving it hexproof until the end of turn is a nice ability to have. Not necessarily the best execution, sure, but that was the general idea, and for what's it worth "give this thing hexproof, dooh" was the intended way to use it even in Fallen Empires limited.

I'd agree it's not the best ever card, but it's less unwieldly than folk tales would have you believe.

Icatian Phalanx (Yes it's worse than Serra Angel , but a 2/4 banding guy was pretty nasty thing.)

If you couldn't afford a Serra Angel, you shouldn't have bought a Fallen Empires booster!

If I need a Serra Angel to win a game of MtG...

Farrel's Mantle (Put it on a Birds of Paradise turn 2, if you untap with them alive the other guy is in serious trouble if his plan involves creatures.)

But what deck scoops to a 0/1 on turn 3? Wasn't every deck at the time loaded with removal in case of turn-1 Hypnotic Specter?

Any deck that can't block a flier that fast (plenty of them) and which has a bunch of low 2 toughness creatures (plenty of them). Obviusly this was a silly move, but the general idea is to stick it on an small evasive critter and lock the other guy out, which was hardly undoable. It's even more doable these days in any casual playgroup. Just put an Invisible Stalker down and then this thing on him, and then beg them to pay your hospital bill after they've broken both your arms as you would totally deserve it.

But saying Fallen Empires was bad because it didn't radically stir up the metagame dominated by vintage staples...

But that's what Magic was like in 1994. And my meta didn't even have any Power 9 at the time.

My meta seems to have been a bit different, and we did have acess to a lot of Fallen Empires and played it a bunch so we understood the cards themselves a lot better.

EDIT: We also tended to allow Fallen Empires in more casual instances of old extended tourneys despite the official rules because a ton of folks had Fallen Empires cards and loved to play them. Off the top of my head, among the commons Spore Cloud, Goblin Kites , Golin Grenade , Farrel's Mantle , Hymn to Tourach , Armor Thrull , Icatian Javelineers , Homarid Spawning Bed , Aeolipile , Basal Thrull were often seen played and Goblin Chirurgeon would occasionally cause someone who got lolpwned by goblins (before there was Onslaught goblins) to threaten reporting the practice to WotC. I'm not even kidding, we kept using these things in sanctioned events up until god knows when, and those are just the commons...

"set constructed" is just a matter of making constructed decks out of all the archetypes.

I fear that's a bit of a pipe dream. Which archetypes already work? Is there anything I could still add to my quest world? I would really appreciate your insight! [/quote]

Well, I'll get to that just don't provoke me until I do on this touchy subject. I have an abrasive personality, yet I need to somehow get some coder or such to help out with Fallen Empires cards which have a bad rep for no good reason. So while I don't really mind anyone's opinion on anything, somebody being cavalier about the whole FE was horrible is just a red flag for me to attack.

Which is pointless, all I want is a playable FE draft and a workable "Sarpadia".

As for which archetypes allready work, I'm having trouble testing it because I have to figure out which cards the AI keeps not putting into decks. Last time around I got it to use Derelors and stuff. This time around I'm finding it drafts Trull Champion along with a bunch of thrulls, but doesn't put it in the deck.

So I have to go tweak every single card (and possibly also figure out if there's more to it apart from getting rid of Svars which remove things from decks).