Quest Mode: Guide to Formats, Worlds, and everything

[serrasmurf]

Does anybody know who's maintaining the Ravnica world? I just started the Momir Vig challenge in that world. This challenge lets the player start with Thrull Parasite and Vigean Hydropon on his side. The problem is that Vigean Hydropon doesn't have any +1/+1 counters on it at the start of the game and gets put into the graveyard after you decide to keep your hand.

hi,
thnx for the feedback.
revising the ravnica world is on my todo list as i still have to add dragons maze. i'll fix this when i get to it (and various other things)

[tchiseen]

Hi!

I just wanted to give some feedback on Quest mode balance, and share some thoughts.

I found a way to make a *ton* of money very easily using the Spell Shop.

It's simple:

• Travel to Shandalar
• Go to Spell Shop and purchase any of the "Black Booster Pack" "Blue Booster Pack" etc for 600.
• These packs consistently have Dual Lands in them. They also have Moxes and other Power
• On average, the contents of the packs sell for nearly 10x their cost
• Compare to other regions, where the contents usually sell for 0.5x the cost
• Finding one dual land is enough to let you buy ALL of the packs, which will usually contain dozens of dual lands. I just tested this and I went from 600 credit to 500,000 credit in one visit.

I used to go to Shandalar and play for ante, and hope that my opponent antes something like a dual or a mox, which does happen and gives great value, but these new boosters in the Spell Shop are pretty busted and remove the need for any of that. You can go from one match win to 500,000 credits without any real effort.

Is there any way to balance Shandalar? Maybe make the Generic packs unavailable? Or change how they pick lands - it looks like the Dual Lands are going into the basic land slot, rather than taking a Rare slot in the pack.

[KrazyTheFox]

Hi!

I just wanted to give some feedback on Quest mode balance, and share some thoughts.

I found a way to make a *ton* of money very easily using the Spell Shop.

It's simple:

• Travel to Shandalar
• Go to Spell Shop and purchase any of the "Black Booster Pack" "Blue Booster Pack" etc for 600.
• These packs consistently have Dual Lands in them. They also have Moxes and other Power
• On average, the contents of the packs sell for nearly 10x their cost
• Compare to other regions, where the contents usually sell for 0.5x the cost
• Finding one dual land is enough to let you buy ALL of the packs, which will usually contain dozens of dual lands. I just tested this and I went from 600 credit to 500,000 credit in one visit.

I used to go to Shandalar and play for ante, and hope that my opponent antes something like a dual or a mox, which does happen and gives great value, but these new boosters in the Spell Shop are pretty busted and remove the need for any of that. You can go from one match win to 500,000 credits without any real effort.

Is there any way to balance Shandalar? Maybe make the Generic packs unavailable? Or change how they pick lands - it looks like the Dual Lands are going into the basic land slot, rather than taking a Rare slot in the pack.

The price... there may be a way to balance the price, but I'd have to think about it. The contents of said packs sounds like a bug to me. They shouldn't be picking good cards that frequently. I never actually switch worlds and usually forget to test under those circumstances.

Edit: Found the issue, not sure what the best fix is yet. There's always a land slot in the boosters that doesn't have a rarity restriction. This worked well for cheaper sets, but as you've pointed out, they're rather game-breaking when purchased in other worlds.

[serrasmurf]

Several people have suggested that traveling should have a cost. Either financial or something like a cool-down period. Traveling to more "expensive" worlds could then have a higher cost to solve this issue

If traveling would have a balanced cost than it would also be more interesting from a gameplay perspective:
i want some particular cards (or other rewards/objectives?) that can best be obtained in world X: do i want to pay Y to go there or not?

[serrasmurf]

Another unbalanced feature is the vintage masters quest drafts (and to a lesser extent some others). Cheap entry, ridiculous cards. I can think of 2 solutions:
- set a higher price that fits the realworld cardboard prices instead of magic online
- or make it a phantom draft where you don't get to keep the cards but do get a proper reward (Rare+?)
Phantom draft would also make it possible to add cubes to the mix....

[Xyx]

I've been doing a lot of questing in the context of developing and testing quest worlds. I generally lose interest at around 30 wins (rarely incurring more than 1 loss since I'm pretty experienced.)

Some observations with regards to the economy:

Disclaimer about downloaded card prices:
I have not downloaded card prices. As a result, all my rares cost 120 credits, uncommons 40 and commons 6.

I play in old quest worlds where some cards have crazy real-life prices. However, these prices do not always reflect the performance of said cards in the context of just that world (case in point: Bazaar of Baghdad.) Moreover, part of the appeal of an old world is actually getting to play with the cool cards, and that means being able to snatch them up when the Spell Store has them on offer. This has not proven feasible with downloaded card prices.

The term "credits":
I would prefer "coins" or "gold". "Credits" is a bland, generic and modern-sounding term that looks out of place in a fantasy themed game.

The cost of commons/uncommons/rares:
The store charges 40 credits for an uncommon and 120 for a rare. In real life, a rare is worth more than 3 uncommons. The thing with lower rarities is that, after a while, you have more than you need. Real-life prices increase exponentially compared to rarity. As such, I suggest a price structure of 5-30-180.

Booster pack prices:
A regular booster pack contains 11 commons, 3 uncommons and 1 rare. If I were to buy these cards separately, I would pay 306 credits total. Not only do I get to choose which actual cards I get, it is also significantly less than the cost of an actual booster pack. Therefore, the only reason for me to buy packs is if 1) the store doesn't have what I want and 2) I'm swimming in credits and 3) I'm not willing to travel.

"<Color> Booster Packs":
These are not "real" products. I would prefer if they were limited to Fantasy quests.

These packs cost 600 credits, which is cheaper than most "real" packs. That means that there is no reason to ever buy "real" packs, especially in some of the older worlds. Moreover... if you're looking for particular cards, the chances of finding them in a pack of the right color are roughly five times as high. So even in the rare instances where the "real" packs are cheaper you're probably still better off buying mono-color packs. To be balanced relative to "real" packs, mono-color packs would have to cost at least 5 times as much as "real" packs, probably more.

Tournament entry fees:
I have played a dozen quest worlds to at least a 20-0 record (which is where "hard" opponents show up), amassing 1k-2k credits in the process by selling off the cards I won. However, I have never been able to afford the 4500 credits tournament entry fee. I don't even know what these tournaments look like. I would have to win another 25 matches against that same dozen of "hard" opponents to save up that much, but by that time I've gone way past the point where I lose interest in the quest.

Duel rewards:
Winning a duel earns both a booster pack and 100 credits. Why both? Credits alone should be sufficient. If I want a pack, I can buy it in the store. Of course, the prize would have to be increased to cover the cost of a pack.

Booster box prices:
A booster box containing 36 packs costs the same as 35 packs. That's a mere 3% discount. There's no way I'm going to save up for such a colossal investment for just 3%. Saving up for a box means not improving your deck in the meantime, which means more games lost, which means less money earned, so that's totally counterproductive. There has to be more incentive. Like, at least 10% off, preferably more like 20%. My LGS is pretty stingy when it comes to discounts but even they offer 10% off for whole boxes.

Spell Store contents:
I was under the impression that the store cracks a set number of packs for its inventory. However, the store inventory rarely matches up with these expectations. For instance, I'm currently looking at a store with just 9 cards from Visions (1r, 1u, 7c) and 24 cards from Mirage (2r, 8u, 14c). What's going on?

[friarsol]

Spell Store contents:
I was under the impression that the store cracks a set number of packs for its inventory. However, the store inventory rarely matches up with these expectations. For instance, I'm currently looking at a store with just 9 cards from Visions (1r, 1u, 7c) and 24 cards from Mirage (2r, 8u, 14c). What's going on?

It doesn't crack "real life boosters" it cracks "Full boosters" which includes cards from all available sets. Since Mirage is roughly twice as large as Visions, your numbers seem statistically correct.

[timmermac]

I've been doing a lot of questing in the context of developing and testing quest worlds. I generally lose interest at around 30 wins (rarely incurring more than 1 loss since I'm pretty experienced.)

Some observations with regards to the economy:

Disclaimer about downloaded card prices:
I have not downloaded card prices. As a result, all my rares cost 120 credits, uncommons 40 and commons 6.

I play in old quest worlds where some cards have crazy real-life prices. However, these prices do not always reflect the performance of said cards in the context of just that world (case in point: Bazaar of Baghdad.) Moreover, part of the appeal of an old world is actually getting to play with the cool cards, and that means being able to snatch them up when the Spell Store has them on offer. This has not proven feasible with downloaded card prices.

The term "credits":
I would prefer "coins" or "gold". "Credits" is a bland, generic and modern-sounding term that looks out of place in a fantasy themed game.

The cost of commons/uncommons/rares:
The store charges 40 credits for an uncommon and 120 for a rare. In real life, a rare is worth more than 3 uncommons. The thing with lower rarities is that, after a while, you have more than you need. Real-life prices increase exponentially compared to rarity. As such, I suggest a price structure of 5-30-180.

Booster pack prices:
A regular booster pack contains 11 commons, 3 uncommons and 1 rare. If I were to buy these cards separately, I would pay 306 credits total. Not only do I get to choose which actual cards I get, it is also significantly less than the cost of an actual booster pack. Therefore, the only reason for me to buy packs is if 1) the store doesn't have what I want and 2) I'm swimming in credits and 3) I'm not willing to travel.

"<Color> Booster Packs":
These are not "real" products. I would prefer if they were limited to Fantasy quests.

These packs cost 600 credits, which is cheaper than most "real" packs. That means that there is no reason to ever buy "real" packs, especially in some of the older worlds. Moreover... if you're looking for particular cards, the chances of finding them in a pack of the right color are roughly five times as high. So even in the rare instances where the "real" packs are cheaper you're probably still better off buying mono-color packs. To be balanced relative to "real" packs, mono-color packs would have to cost at least 5 times as much as "real" packs, probably more.

Tournament entry fees:
I have played a dozen quest worlds to at least a 20-0 record (which is where "hard" opponents show up), amassing 1k-2k credits in the process by selling off the cards I won. However, I have never been able to afford the 4500 credits tournament entry fee. I don't even know what these tournaments look like. I would have to win another 25 matches against that same dozen of "hard" opponents to save up that much, but by that time I've gone way past the point where I lose interest in the quest.

Duel rewards:
Winning a duel earns both a booster pack and 100 credits. Why both? Credits alone should be sufficient. If I want a pack, I can buy it in the store. Of course, the prize would have to be increased to cover the cost of a pack.

Booster box prices:
A booster box containing 36 packs costs the same as 35 packs. That's a mere 3% discount. There's no way I'm going to save up for such a colossal investment for just 3%. Saving up for a box means not improving your deck in the meantime, which means more games lost, which means less money earned, so that's totally counterproductive. There has to be more incentive. Like, at least 10% off, preferably more like 20%. My LGS is pretty stingy when it comes to discounts but even they offer 10% off for whole boxes.

Spell Store contents:
I was under the impression that the store cracks a set number of packs for its inventory. However, the store inventory rarely matches up with these expectations. For instance, I'm currently looking at a store with just 9 cards from Visions (1r, 1u, 7c) and 24 cards from Mirage (2r, 8u, 14c). What's going on?

I have downloaded the card prices. It's helpful with quest mode to not play with the default preferences for the mode. I usually start off with 50 million credits with heavily enhanced rewards as well. I also turn off the item level restriction and heavily increase the maximum amount that the shop will give you for a card until you reach the threshhold number of match wins. I also set it so that I won't face a medium opponent until at least 75 wins.

[mastroego]

I have to say, I don't disagree with Xyx's arguments, though I use Forge in a wildly different manner.

[Xyx]

I suspect that the mono-color booster packs are used to fill the store inventory and set up the player's sealed pool. This distorts card distribution, particularly in the sealed pool. MIR/VIS has only two colorless cards at Common (Phyrexian Walker and Sisay's Ring), and both the store and the sealed pool contain huge clumps of these cards. I bought three colorless booster packs and got 17 Phyrexian Walkers.

[friarsol]

I suspect that the mono-color booster packs are used to fill the store inventory and set up the player's sealed pool. This distorts card distribution, particularly in the sealed pool. MIR/VIS has only two colorless cards at Common (Phyrexian Walker and Sisay's Ring), and both the store and the sealed pool contain huge clumps of these cards. I bought three colorless booster packs and got 17 Phyrexian Walkers.

Well no that's not how the store inventory nor starting pool works either. The mono-color boosters are relatively new. The way the starting card pool works is there's a ratio of 4:2:1 color:colorless:multicolored. So for every 23 cards you should roughly have 4 of each color, 2 colorless, and 1 multicolored. This was designed for large card pools. When applied to very small card pools things deteriorate, which is why by default, the pools were limited to singletons to dissuade this type of flooding.

[Xyx]

Why not just give me the traditional six booster packs?

[friarsol]

Why not just give me the traditional six booster packs?

Because Quest mode isn't a Sealed deck?

[timmermac]

And also, starting cards can be modified.

[Xyx]

I expected it to be six booster packs and I'm genuinely surprised that it isn't, because why not? Sticking with the traditional six booster packs would have many advantages: familiar, recognizable, comfortable, people need less time to get their bearings, their Sealed experience carries over, etcetera. Why depart from that? That just raises the already considerable barrier to entry.

(Balanced colors is actually bad for Sealed since that way none of your colors are "deep".)