Quest World: Alara - In Development

[Erazmus]

This is just formal notification of development for the Alara Quest World. I will be starting it shortly and periodically note my progress here. If someone is already working on this, please let me know and I will defer and choose another block to work on.

That being said, assuming no one else is doing this, I'd like to ask for some feedback. For Lorwyn I immediately jumped in and started creating. This time I want to spend a little more time brainstorming.

The main core set available at the time of Alara was 10E. It is also the same set that can be found in all of the Intro/Theme decks for that block. So for the sets included, I was thinking should be:

10E, M10, ALA, CON, ARB

Though M10 could also be considered given M10 cycled in July of 2009, and ALA block wasn't cycled out until October of 2010. Which means Alara and M10 existed together for over a year. There was even some overlap with M11, but I'm not seriously considering M11 to be included. Any thoughts of using just 10E or M10, or even both?

I was also hoping some of you could submit any of your home-brew decklists for Alara. I will obviously be scouring the net for lists (theme decks, top-8, FNM, etc.) But deck submissions here would seriously expedite the process. Don't worry about quest formatting in the list, I'll do that. But if you could explicitly add the set trailer for each card in the list, that would be great.

Example: 2 Path to Exile|CON

Any suggestions for challenges/reward would also be appreciated. The challenges, for me, take a lot of time.

For Lorwyn I used Greek Mythology for the theme. This time around I was thinking of just using characters/plainswalkers from the magic storylines/cards/worlds. Feedback and suggestions here would be great. I know it's not a major thing, and to most people may be trivial, but I was thinking it might make things more fun to keep everything within the MTG mythos?

Thanks in advance.

[Erazmus]

Here is the breakdown of goals I want to achieve before initial release. It is ambitious, for me anyway, but I really want to make this block have lots of replayability by having deck variety and consistency.

The theme will be Creatures and Planeswalkers from the block/core sets to be used as opponents. Difficulty of the decks will be represented by the rarity of the Creature/Planeswalker opponent. Planeswalkers will be used exclusively for challenges. Deck difficulty will break down like the following.

Creature (Opponent)
-------------
Common - Easy
Uncommon - Medium
Rare - Hard
Mythic - Very Hard

One caveat is that the creature (opponent) must share the same colors of the deck. So I'm kinda borrowing a mechanic from EDH. For example: Kresh is BRG (Jund), so the deck he will control will be Jund. Since Kresh is a Mythic Rare, the deck will be very hard. This may pose a slight challenge for creature deck association, but it's something I really want to stick with. These same color/deck restrictions will not apply to challenges (who will be Planeswalkers).

70 Duel Decks
------------------
20 Easy (Complete)
15 Medium (50% Done)
20 Hard
15 Very Hard

20 Challenges
------------------
5 Medium (Available at level 20)
5 Hard (Available at level 25)
10 Very Hard (Start at 30)

Of the very hard challenges, they will broken down into pairs of sub difficulty. Two new very hard challenges will become available every 5 wins after 30 wins. Each new pair of challenges will be harder and yield better rewards.

10 Very Hard Challenges
------------------
30 Wins opens 2
35 Wins opens 2 more
40 ...
45 ...
50 ...

I'll tailor challenge rewards directly to the challenge. I usually like to award cards from the deck being played by the opponent and packs, but I haven't really decided on anything yet.

So far this is what I have. Still working on things. I hope all the above made sense!

[mastroego]

Erazmus,
I'll gladly help if able, but I'm a casual player at heart. I guess I can contribute mostly with feedback on the finished decks..

Just a few comments right of the bat.

- I actually played the Alara Block on MTGO with M10 and M11. I would miss something without M11 but I realize it's me.
- When you say "Planeswalkers", you mean them as Avatar opponents? Or/and as actual cards? The AI uses them very poorly in fact, and they end up appearing a lot less menacing than they should, alas (I still hope in future AI improvements of course)
- I wouldn't use "fixed" prizes. The established system works with random (world specific) boosters: I think coherence in this regard would be better. If nothing else, you can't abuse too much of the random system.

That's it for now
Thank you for your work!

[Erazmus]

mastroego,

Come on, you gotta have some old deck lists!

Regarding core sets. I wanted to include two at most, but I don't think I could add M11 over 10E or M10 because they only overlapped in standard for 3 months. Then again, this world isn't exactly "standard." I'll put some more thought into it. But I can't really think of anything great that M11 offers that 10E or M10 doesn't, other than maybe the Titans, but that isn't really a deal breaker imo. I'd be more inclined on including M11 if some decklists were submitted with M11 cards in them.

Regarding Planeswalkers, you are correct. I am using creatures and Planeswalkers in the world as avatar opponents. I thought it would be more fun and immersive to have the them stay within the MTG universe and using the commonality of those creatures/PW to represent difficulty of the decks to the players. I hope it won't be confusing. When I did Lorwyn, I thought using Greek Mythos would be fun. But the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of keeping everything inside the existing pantheon. There is a lot to draw from, so no need to look externally.

I also agree about being carfeul about use of PW in the decks themselves. However, given that the AI is routinely worked on, I would be reluctant to not use them at all. Once this world is complete (after testing of course), I don't see myself going back into it to make deck changes unless something is really out of whack. All I can hope is, as you said, the AI will improve their use over time.

I see your point on fixed prizes. My main concern in building the world is replayability. Therefore fixed prizes really don't have any place.

Thanks for the input!

[mastroego]

Oh, I do have some decklists, but consider that:
1. I think I never acquired more than a single copy of a Mythic on MTGO
2. I had an even poorer grasp than I have now of concepts like mana curve and so on
3. I only played casually

Combining the above points, you see it's unlikely my decklists would provide much of a challenge...
THAT said, maybe they could be of some use to design a few easy opponents

I'll fire the client up again and see what I have.
I seem to remember an annoying "lockdown" deck with vigilance creatures, tapping effects, and Stoic Angels, for instance.
Yep, a few, usable rough concepts might even be found

I also had a somewhat clunky but fun control deck that intended to play Cloven Casting and go nuts from there. I did manage to cast double cascades and double Cruel Ultimatums sometimes (and the spell "cascaded into" can be doubled as well!). Now, I figure the AI would use it poorly. For instance, it had a recurring theme with Naya Charm selecting cards from the Graveyard (easily filled with Cascade), but you have to make the right choice at the right time, which the AI doesn't. E.G.: with an active Cloven, I used Naya Charm to get whatever spell and another Naya Charm, so I could do it again and again.
I remember this one since I made an improved version in Forge - it really benefits from having cards out of the Alara Block, like Plumeveil (that helps surviving the first turns and can be cascaded into from Kathari Remnant or Captured Sunlight).

You know, thinking about it, the base idea might work as a challenge... if you set the AI with Cloven Casting already in place!

Oh, and don't worry about M11, what you planned is fine

[Erazmus]

Perfect! See, that's what I'm talking about. You already gave me some ideas, and that's what I need, as well as complete 60 card deck lists . I have a tendency to make specific kind of decks/archetypes. With the aggressive amount of decks I want for this world, I don't want the home-brew ones to be all alike, that's why I wanted some ideas and lists to help prevent that. Thank you!

Yeah, even if you aren't confident in your old decks, I also need easy and medium decks. My deck construction has slowed yesterday and today cause I just got smacked with a big head cold. Hard to focus, so haven't been doing much on the world other than coming up with ideas and such.

Just an update. I have most of the avatar-opponents/icons done and ready. I am almost done with the easy decks (10/15). For the medium decks, I'll probably take quite a few of the easy ones and mod them to be more difficult and add a few home-brews. It's pretty much what I did in Lorwyn. I usually spend the most time building the hard/very hards.

Thanks again!

[mastroego]

Ok, give me some time, I'll try to salvage something.
The lockdown deck I mentioned before seems already in "decent" shape (though possibly not very AI friendly), so here it is:

2x Rampant Growth
2x Trace of Abundance
2x Silence
2x Honor of the Pure
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Hindering Light
3x Naya Charm
2x Kiss of the Amesha
2x Pithing Needle
1x Ajani Vengeant
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

3x Stoic Angel
2x Cerodon Yearling
2x Stun Sniper
2x Valiant Guard
2x Wall of Denial
2x Serra Angel
1x Meglonoth
1x Bull Cerodon
1x Meddling Mage

3x Seaside Citadel
2x Rootbound Crag
1x Jungle Shrine
2x Terramorphic Expanse
1x Rupture Spire
2x Sunpetal Grove
2x Glacial Fortress
2x Forest
2x Mountain
5x Plains
1x Island

I don't think the AI can really use the Needle or the Mage. So I guess one can consider other fitting cards like: Blinding Mage, Scepter of Dominance, Intimidation Bolt, Glory of Warfare, Skyward Eye Prophets, or more generic ones like Dispeller's Capsule, Bant Charm, or Safe Passage for more set-up time, etc.
Hope you can work something out with this

[Erazmus]

Yup, I can use it. It's too bad about the mage and needle, but we can work around it. It's a four color deck, so I gotta find a 4 or 5 color creature to be it's avatar.

[Erazmus]

Ok, so I've been thinking about the structure of the decks and imposing format standards on what makes the deck difficult. As we know, with the AI, some decks thought to be easy can be quite hard, and some hard decks turn out to be very easy. These particular standards will speed up the deck creation process, and will hopefully give people a clear picture of how "difficult" the deck will be. At least, that is my hope.

For Easy decks I will impose the standards already applied by Wizards for the intro/theme decks. These standards are as follows.

Deck Minimum: 41 cards
Rares: Maximum 3, Multiples 1
Mythic Rares: Maximum 0

Medium
Deck Minimum: 60 cards
Rares: Maximum 8, Multiples 2
Mythic Rares: Maximum 1

*NOTE* Limits for Hard and Very Hard have been removed.

Let me know if any of these seem too restrictive. I don't think they should be. I mean, when I think of an easy deck, it should be, well - easy!

[Marek14]

What are the restrictions for mythic rares?

[Erazmus]

What are the restrictions for mythic rares?

You know what, I didn't even think about the mythics. I'm still getting over a head cold. I'll adjust the post above and let me know how it sounds.

[friarsol]

I think the nomenclature would be better as:

Deck Minimum: 41 cards
Rares: Maximum 3, Multiples 1
Mythic Rares: Maximum 0

Also, if easy decks have a minimum of 41 cards, won't they be much more consistent? Anyway, I think these limitations are much too stringent. If a deck is focused around a particular card, there should be 4 of them, no matter what difficulty it's in. There's nothing stopping you for enforcing these rules for your own World, but I think you might be unnecessarily binding your hands. Plus rarity doesn't equate card power.

[Erazmus]

I think the nomenclature would be better as:

Deck Minimum: 41 cards
Rares: Maximum 3, Multiples 1
Mythic Rares: Maximum 0

Also, if easy decks have a minimum of 41 cards, won't they be much more consistent? Anyway, I think these limitations are much too stringent. If a deck is focused around a particular card, there should be 4 of them, no matter what difficulty it's in. There's nothing stopping you for enforcing these rules for your own World, but I think you might be unnecessarily binding your hands. Plus rarity doesn't equate card power.

I'm glad you posted this, because you raised some concerns I had. I can't disagree with anything you've said above. I originally was thinking about these limitations to speed up deck creation and really curb difficulty. So far, it has actually increased deck creation time. One silver lining is that it is making me a better deck builder because I have to think more about card synergies and combinations while limiting scope. It is blatantly true that a lot of rares have virtually no power, while some common/uncommons have tremendous power. What the rare limitation does is constrain me from using specific powerful rares in multiples. Then again, if I am going to do that, why not just make easy decks singleton altogether? Something to think about.

With regard to the deck minimums, you are correct that a deck would be more consistent and efficient at 41 cards vs 60, but that holds true more so for decks with no other restrictions imposed. For easy decks I am using intro decks and keeping additional easy decks within the same vein as those intro-decks from Wizards. I think this will keep the difficulty at a minimum.

Anyway, nothing is written in stone. I started this thread while I worked on this world because I want to take time and get it done right.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll make adjustments above.

[mastroego]

Another deck from my old collection.
Keep in mind, again, that I had to make do with the cards I owned... then again, that might work for easier opponents, and I'm sure you can find the well known and tested competition-worthy decklists anywhere, after all.

The following deck was supposed to work in two different stages.
In the first stage, the artifact "engine" is supposed to keep you alive while you build an eclectic mana base (all the borderposts and 4 kaleidostones are present too, in fact).
Notice that the creatures can be sacrificed for a block with a light heart... you can recall them with Sharuum or the Gargoyles, and they're not much needed otherwise anyway (of course, nothing against an Esperzoa win, when possible).
Once you have the mana base you can hopefully cast the big threats - which mostly depart from the artifact theme.
Even more hopefully cast them for free with the Angel.
Other "regular" artifacts (like Obelisk of Alara) are there also because they can be cast for a reduced cost - with the help of some Sculptors on the field.
Not sure why I included the sigil. Maybe I assumed the discount worked for that too.
Anyway, here it is:

2x Path to Exile
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Rampant Growth
2x Trace of Abundance
1x Tezzeret the Seeker

4x Sanctum Gargoyle
4x Etherium Sculptor
4x Esperzoa
1x Sharuum the Hegemon
3x Fusion Elemental
1x Maelstrom Archangel
1x Progenitus
1x Platinum Angel
1x Darksteel Colossus

1x Fieldmist Borderpost
1x Mistvein Borderpost
1x Veinfire Borderpost
1x Firewild Borderpost
1x Wildfield Borderpost
4x Kaleidostone
2x Obelisk of Alara
2x Sigil of Distinction
1x Pithing Needle

3x Seaside Citadel
1x Savage Lands
1x Arcane Sanctum
2x Forest
2x Plains
2x Mountain
2x Swamp
2x Island
2x Terramorphic Expanse

Of course a deck like this can't even be compared to the ones currently used on Quest mode. It was a much slower format after all: sometimes the plan did come together
And it could be fun since when people saw sculptors and esperzoas they didn't expect to be attacked by a Maelstrom Archangel a few turns later...
Well, if it's any use, feel free to work from this. Add and remove stuff at will (it goes without saying).

[Marek14]

According to rules, the discount DOES work for Sigil of Distinction. Forge has problems with it, IIRC.