Decks for Quest mode

[Chris H.]

Cap: It uses the panorama just fine. It searches for the first land it finds but it searched on turn 2. It looked ok.

You're right. My mistake.

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I have verified that none of the fetch lands include the "SVar:RemAIDeck:True".

[Sloth]

My reasoning for using Mana Leak was that it was in standard.

Why is this relevant?

I am trying to include more standard decks now the we have a standard card pool for quest mode. That and I would like to play against more of the current standard decks. Not testing but I want to see how my terrible deck will do against a competitive deck for the format that my cards are from.

I guess I would like Forge to have a gauntlet mode and I am trying my best to do that.

The problem is:
A. that standard constantly rotates and I don't think quest mode is the best place to test standard decks by updating the AI opponents all the time.
B. Since the AI can't use all cards very well, the number of possible distinguishable standard decks is rather small.

My conception of the quest mode opponents is that each of them has decks that:
A. Have one theme (for example BG Infect, W Soldiers, Domain etc.), so players can remember and distinguish them.
B. The AI can play them well (As a developer I don't like to see the AI doing stupid things).

So if you don't mind, i would like you to not only fix your decks concerning AI playability, but also reduce the number to those that can be distinguished and are memorable (at the moment there are more than six Jace, the Mind Sculptor + X opponents). Maybe you can post a list of planned opponents before revamping decks. (It's ok to keep the decks Standard legal as long as the possibilities for a theme are not trimmed too much)

[Corwin72]

Here is the AI fixes that I have done so far. I will try to come up with some criteria for the decks added. Jace has been changed to Jace Beleren for all decks. Jace is just such a defining part of standard and extended that it seems like he would be in a bunch of decks.

I will work more on this tomorrow.

[Chris H.]

Rev 8109:

- There may be or is cases where a card could have both the "SVar:RemAIDeck:True" and the "SVar:RemRandomDeck:True" SVars. Made some changes to the new AI column. Cards with both SVars will now display "No ?".

[Chris H.]

Here is the AI fixes that I have done so far. I will try to come up with some criteria for the decks added. Jace has been changed to Jace Beleren for all decks. Jace is just such a defining part of standard and extended that it seems like he would be in a bunch of decks.

`
Thank you Corwin. I have checked them and have 34 ready to merge into the SVN ... the SVN is not cooperating at this time. I am getting a server error.

These are the decks that I plan to merge once googlecode is working again:

Aquaman 1.dck
Aquaman 2.dck
Aquaman 3.dck
Ash 1.dck
Ash 2.dck
Ash 3.dck
Atomic Robo 1.dck
Atomic Robo 2.dck
Atomic Robo 3.dck
Bear 1.dck
Bear 2.dck
Cable 2.dck
Captain America 2.dck
Colbert 2.dck
Colossus 2.dck
Conan 3.dck
Darkseid 2.dck
Dick Grayson 3.dck
Dinosaur 1.dck
Dinosaur 2.dck
Dog 2.dck
En Sabah Nur 3.dck
Fin Fang Foom 1.dck
Fin Fang Foom 3.dck
Gambit 3.dck
Goblin Recruit 2.dck
Green Arrow 2.dck
Hulk 2.dck
Hulk 3.dck
Jack 2.dck
Jack 3.dck
Jason Todd 3.dck
Kang 2.dck
Kang 3.dck

[Jaedayr]

This may be a more general issue but since I noticed it while playtesting these decks I will post it here.

Playing against White Knight 1, the AI already had cast two Oblivion Ring and I had nothing but lands on my side of the board. It then cast a third ring, and exiled one of its own rings, thus returning my card to the battlefield. It seems to me that the ring should only be cast on an opponents cards. Is that a fair assumption and is there any way to enforce it?

[Chris H.]

Thank you Corwin. I have checked them and have 34 ready to merge into the SVN ... the SVN is not cooperating at this time. I am getting a server error.

These are the decks that I plan to merge once googlecode is working again:

`
The SVN is working again and I was able to move all 34 fixed decks.

[Chris H.]

We have several decks with the card Overgrown Battlement. The AI can not use the "Tap: Add G to your mana pool for each Creature with defender you control." ability at this time.

We need to find a replacement card. Vine Trellis, Wall of Blossoms and Wall of Vines seem to be good candadates as replacements. These are the decks that contain Overgrown Battlement:

Colossus 3.dck
Dr Doom 2.dck
Dr Doom 3.dck
Krypto 3.dck
Link 3.dck

[Corwin72]

Hmmm.
I was using that card to replace Lotus Cobra.
I will use Vine Trellis.

[lazylockie]

I think you need to be careful with the tier 1 decks. Remember that early quest mode (the first 10-15 games) you'll be basically playing a sealed deck. While the starting Standard pool helps immensely (hello Titans!), it becomes a painful downhill when all the cards are available. You could get lucky and get a Maelstrom Pulse / Vindicate early, but chances are you'll be getting lots of Borrowing the East Wind.

I think as a rule of thumb, tier 1 decks can't have rares/mythics at all. For example, your Atomic Robo 1 has 4 All is Dust and 4 Brittle Effigy. While I agree having a singleton of both would give a fair chance for AI, 4 of each is just unfair for the player. Especially mass removal cards, such as Day of Judgment, Infest or Damnation, where it doesn't involve much thinking for AI.

[Sloth]

We have several decks with the card Overgrown Battlement. The AI can not use the "Tap: Add G to your mana pool for each Creature with defender you control." ability at this time.

We need to find a replacement card. Vine Trellis, Wall of Blossoms and Wall of Vines seem to be good candadates as replacements. These are the decks that contain Overgrown Battlement:

Colossus 3.dck
Dr Doom 2.dck
Dr Doom 3.dck
Krypto 3.dck
Link 3.dck

Sorry Chris and Corwin, you are putting a lot of effort into this, but I think it's really the wrong approach dumping 100+ decks into quest mode and fixing them afterwards.

Quality assurance is much easier, if Corwin (or others) will post only a few decks at a time and everyone can post concerns (about AI usability, balancing, existing similar decks, etc.) or suggestion for improvements.

Maybe we can use thread for new quest decks and have another for improving old decks.

[Chris H.]

Hmmm.
I was using that card to replace Lotus Cobra.
I will use Vine Trellis.

`
- Updated the following quest decks:

Colossus 3.dck
Dr Doom 2.dck
Dr Doom 3.dck
Krypto 3.dck
Link 3.dck


OK. I replaced the Overgrown Battlement with Vine Trellis. We also need to replace Deprive with something similar to Counterspell.

A couple of rules to try to remember, and I also at times have to try to figure out what the AI can handle.

The AI can not use abilities that produce more than a single point of mana.

I strongly suspect that the AI can (for the most part) only handle costs that deal with tapping the source card and/or mana payment.

Deprive has an additional cost of returning a land it controls, and I do not think that any of the devs has had enough free time to fix this situation.

I replaced the Deprive with a Cancel. This was in the Link 3 deck.

[Corwin72]

Here is part 2.
I will have to work on the Overgrown Battlement issue tomorrow. Portal 2 is waiting for me at home.

Any AI : No cards still included have been tested and the AI uses them well,or are fine as the generic cards without abilities.

[Chris H.]

Sorry Chris and Corwin, you are putting a lot of effort into this, but I think it's really the wrong approach dumping 100+ decks into quest mode and fixing them afterwards.

Quality assurance is much easier, if Corwin (or others) will post only a few decks at a time and everyone can post concerns (about AI usability, balancing, existing similar decks, etc.) or suggestion for improvements.

Maybe we can use thread for new quest decks and have another for improving old decks.

`
Yeah, hindsight is 20/20.

We may as well try to make the best of it at this point. This can be viewed as a learning experience for people.

A number of folks have had a blast adding in new cards via scripting. Some will now want to use these cards to create a few more opponent decks. I do not mind pitching in and helping.

The AI column that I recently added was on my todo list for a couple of years. At one point, Dennis tried but used the cards canPlayAI block and we got mixed results.

[Chris H.]

I think you need to be careful with the tier 1 decks. Remember that early quest mode (the first 10-15 games) you'll be basically playing a sealed deck. While the starting Standard pool helps immensely (hello Titans!), it becomes a painful downhill when all the cards are available. You could get lucky and get a Maelstrom Pulse / Vindicate early, but chances are you'll be getting lots of Borrowing the East Wind.

I think as a rule of thumb, tier 1 decks can't have rares/mythics at all. For example, your Atomic Robo 1 has 4 All is Dust and 4 Brittle Effigy. While I agree having a singleton of both would give a fair chance for AI, 4 of each is just unfair for the player. Especially mass removal cards, such as Day of Judgment, Infest or Damnation, where it doesn't involve much thinking for AI.

`
You make a good point.

Would you mind toning down this deck for us. We could use another set of eyes and hands.

`