World Deck Development thread

[Sloth]

I'm more or less done making sure the decks work, but there are still some AI related issues that I don't really want to solve by cutting those cards from all of the decks entirely. I would like to maintain a "100% card coverage". I'm not sure if that is acceptable.

Having cards the AI can't play in quest decks is not a good idea. Some players consider it a bug or they post about it in the AI improvement section of the forum. So anyway they are annoyed and expect us to fix it. Why do it in the first place when it can be easily avoided?

[Xyx]

Here it is. I still plan on doing some minor adjustments and pruning, but it's quite serviceable.

Needs this line in worlds.txt:

Code: Select all

Name:Block 30: Theros|Dir:30 Theros|Sets:THS, BNG, JOU

Having cards the AI can't play in quest decks is not a good idea. Some players consider it a bug or they post about it in the AI improvement section of the forum. So anyway they are annoyed and expect us to fix it. Why do it in the first place when it can be easily avoided?

I tried to avoid bone-headedness. The only truly egregious examples that remain are ones that should be fixed in the AI, not in the decks. Particularly the AI's propensity to dump all of its mana into mana sinks (Stormcaller of Keranos, for instance) before casting any spells.

[Fizanko]

Hello, i'm working on making an Innistrad quest world.

So far i have done the 15 "easy" AI opponents , that are using the intro decks of the 3 sets of the block.
Each of their have a custom icon.

I have done 6 challenges too, that are using the 6 event decks of the block (i exchanged the Divine Deflection of one of them because that card isn't yet supported by Forge, i'm using Divine Retribution card from the Mirage set instead)
Those 6 challenges have their icons too

The "medium" AI will be using the 15 same opponents, with better decks than the intro one, for the "hard" version i have no idea for now, maybe looking at what pro players have done with the block, but i don't wish to include cards that aren't from it (no mox by example).

If you have self-made Innistrad block-only decks feel free to share, i could use them for the "medium" level of the AI
If you know some pro-level Innistrad block-only deck, please give link, would make the completion of the world easier.

For now to play with that world, locate the file
worlds.txt
Open it with wordpad or any text editor and add after what is already wrote, the following
Name:Innistrad|Dir:innistrad|Sets:IDS, DKA, AVR|Banned:Chaos Orb; Falling Star
edit bad, it is :

Code: Select all

Name:Innistrad|Dir:innistrad|Sets:ISD, DKA, AVR|Banned:Chaos Orb; Falling Star

Then put the innistrad folder from the download attached to this post into
..\YourForgeDirectory\res\quest\world\

Finally if you want the challenges and quests opponents to feature their icons, put the jpg files of the icons folder from the attached download into
..\whereverIsyourForgeuserdata\Cache\pics\icons\

You'll then be able to travel to Innistrad and play against the current opponents and see the pictures.

edit : screwed up with the id numbers, fixed quest world in following post

[Fizanko]

fixed a bit the quest world
add to the worlds.txt

Code: Select all

Name:Innistrad|Dir:innistrad|Sets:ISD, DKA, AVR|Banned:Chaos Orb; Falling Star

[mastroego]

Looking forward to see Xyx's and Fizanko's worlds integrated into Forge

[Fizanko]

Worked a bit more on the Innistrad world.
As mentionned previously , to install, open the worlds.txt ( in ..\YourForgeDirectory\res\quest\world\ ) and add

Code: Select all

Name:Innistrad|Dir:innistrad|Sets:ISD, DKA, AVR|Banned:Chaos Orb; Falling Star

Then put the "innistrad" folder from the download attached to this post into
..\YourForgeDirectory\res\quest\world\

Finally if you want the challenges and quests opponents to feature their icons, put the jpg files of the icons folder from the attached download into
..\whereverIsyourForgeuserdata\Cache\pics\icons\


- 6 challenges, that are the Event Decks of the Innistrad block (Innistrad+Dark Ascension+Avacyn Restored)

- 15 "easy" AI, that are using the intro decks of the Innistrad block
- 6 "medium" AI, that are decks i build myself from the stockpile of cards i obtained with playing near to a hundred of duels ( rewards earned + spellshops) , so while they are better than the "easy" AI decks (as i could get several win streaks against the easy AI with them) they aren't broken.
Note that i tried to keep a theme for those decks so you're not going to see mix of most powerful cards of the corresponding colors.
- 9 "hard" AI, that are made from pro tour decks that were using the Innistrad block. Those decks were made to win tournaments so don't expect anything to be really in theme, they're just the strongest cards the competitor had, probably not very interesting thematically but at least it's harder than "medium".

Of course as usual with the quest worlds, it's recommended to use cards from the world block ( in that case ISD , DKA and AVR ) if you want to keep the challenge.

To be really finished, i hope to add more "medium" AI decks, but it's what takes the most time as i need to play several games to see how they can do against the "easy" AI to be able to call them "medium"

[Fizanko]

After more testings i managed to complete 3 more decks with some kind of theme instead of just "putting strong cards together" that will fit nicely within the "medium" difficulty, as i managed to make several streak against the "easy" ones with them.

So far it's then
15 "easy"
9 "medium"
9 "hard"

I would like to make 3 more "themed" decks for the "medium" difficulty and i'll then call this completed.
But that's going to be hard as i'm starting to get out of inspiration as i am trying to give some more unique decklist to each decks instead of having too many similar cards found in each of them, so the player will have some fun from the varied enemies.

Though with the "hard" decks coming from the pro tours, the variation fun will not be much there as there are several similar cards in those pro decks.

[Sloth]

Looking forward to see Xyx's and Fizanko's worlds integrated into Forge

Xyx Theros world is not ready for an official release yet. There are still many many cards the AI can't use in the decks.

@Fizanko: Should i take a look at your decks, to point out some AI incopatibilities?

[Fizanko]

If you want to give feedback on the AI and how it play the decks, please do so, i've been playing hundred of duels within the quest world itself while building it but i would sure could use more eyes and plays to see if something must be changed or if it's fine.

I attach 8 more "medium" decks for Innistrad (spent the whole day to make and playtest them against AI) to add to the 6 i had in the innistradwolrd3.zip download up there.

Put them in yourforgedirectory\res\quest\world\innistrad\duels\

Only 1 to go and the world is complete, after that tweaks will happen according to feedbacks if some people kindly provide some.

[Sloth]

If you want to give feedback on the AI and how it play the decks, please do so, i've been playing hundred of duels within the quest world itself while building it but i would sure could use more eyes and plays to see if something must be changed or if it's fine.

I've only played against Cultist 1 and Demonist 1, but those were already full of cards the AI can't use right.
Just play against them in a constructed match and a window will tell you which cards the AI can't use well.

[Fizanko]

I replaced the "main world" duels by the innistrad ones so i could easily assign the AI with the decks without having to write preconstructed version, here's the result with the AI "can't play those cards well" :

Cultist 1 - AI can't play 7 cards well
Demonist 1 - AI can't play 6 cards well
Demonist 2 - AI no problem
Demonist 3 - AI can't play 1 card well
Ghost 1 - AI can't play 1 card well
Ghost 2 - AI can't play 3 cards well
Ghost 3 - AI no problem
Ghoul 1 - AI can't play 1 card well
Guards 1 - AI can't play 3 cards well
Guards 2 - AI can't play 3 cards well
Guards 2 - AI no problem
Inquisitor 1 - AI no problem
Inquisitor 2 - AI can't play 2 cards well
Necro 1 - AI can't play 3 cards well
Necro 2 - AI can't play 3 cards well
Necro 3 - AI can't play 1 card well
Priest 1 - AI can't play 1 card well
Priest 2 - AI can't play 2 cards well
Priest 3 - AI can't play 2 cards well
Slayer 1 - AI can't play 4 cards well
Slayer 2 - AI can't play 3 cards well
Slayer 3 - AI can't play 1 card well
Sorcerer 1 - AI no problem
Specter 1 - AI can't play 1 card well
Specter 2 - AI can't play 2 cards well
Vampire 1 - AI can't play 1 card well
Vampire 2 - AI no problem
Warlord 1 - AI can't play 2 cards well
Warlord 3 - AI can't play 1 card well
Witch 1 - AI can't play 1 card well
Witch 2 - AI can't play 3 cards well
Witch 3 - AI no problem
Zombie 1 - AI can't play 3 cards well
Zombie 2 - AI no problem
Zombie 3 - AI can't play 3 cards well

the 1 decks are the innistrad "intro" packs, the 2 decks are the one i build myself, the 3 are the ones from the various pro tour 2012 i think.

What i find odd is that the majority of those cards aren't really complex (some that are complex are to my surprise not listed as the problem cards).

Not sure where to go from there as some of those cards have some "flavor" to help the deck themes.

[Fizanko]

While there are cards i may be able to replace without hurting the deck, there are cards that i really can't see how to replace them (due to their play within the deck) without making such deck weaker

Civilized Scholar , really great one that can transform into much stronger creature for the card 3 mana low cost while provide some card picking in the same time, you'll need to discard a card after the card picking but when you have a bad hand, it's very helpful

Emancipation Angel , a very good 3/3 angel + flying (and so that has some synergy with some angel-boosting cards) for a small 3 mana white cost. It will eject another of your deployed creature back to your hand as a balance, or if you have no creature deployed and didn't paid attention it will eject itself back to your hand

Fettergeist , 3/4 + flying spirit for only 3 mana, a very strong card that require you to pay 1 mana each turn for each other creatures you have on the battlefield. Very powerful if you can land it early.

Fiend of the Shadows , a vampire with Flying that can force a player hit by it to exile cards from his hand (that you can then play from their exile), and it can regenerate if you sacrifice a human type creature.
Its cost is a bit high for 3/3 (5 mana) but the flying and exile cards makes up for it to hit the opponent hard.

Grimgrin, Corpse-Born , powerful dual colored card that get +1/+1 by automatically destroying a targetted card blocking and can get +1/+1 from sacrifying another creature.

Selfless Cathar , a 1/1 with cost 1 white, useful in early game to have early attack/defense, but the main good point is that you can sacrifice it anytime to give +1/+1 to everyone on your side until end turn

Skirsdag Flayer , a 1/1 for 2 mana that does not sound good of course, but it has an ability to destroy an enemy creature by sacrificing a human-type (or itself as it's human type) and paying a mana cost, very useful

Treacherous Pit-Dweller , a powerfull ( 4/3 ) for its cost (2 mana) with a twist : it's undying but when it comes back from graveyard due to it, it will then play for the opponent side.
It's then a big risk , but for its cost it can be very rewarding when it land early.

Any idea because i simply can't see how to replace those card (ability+cost+P/T equivalence) without weakening decks ?

[Pux]

I think you'll have to take it in stride that the AI can't play some bomb-y cards. I think the only option is to replace them with something weaker. I don't think that it's a problem with easy or medium decks because the player doesn't have access to a lot of cards and will have to play a combination of random ones. Thematic decks with 4-ofs are generally much stronger.
The main problem are hard decks, really. If you can't keep the power level high the only option is downgrading them to medium in my opinion.

[Fizanko]

Looks like indeed weaker replacement are going to be the only option unfortunately.
Hopefully in the future the AI will be able to handle those cards better, and i'll be able to re-adjust the decks for that world.

But for now i'll have to use slightly weaker cards to lower the amount of "can't play well" ones.

I hope i'll find alternative for the hard AI, there are already not much of them that are truly different (a lot of the "pro tour" decks for that block are too similarly built, making too few variety for the player fun, as it's like playing against the same deck all over again)

[Fizanko]

All the tier 1 decks are fixed, was easier than i thought as fortunately the decks aren't very strong and do not rely on specific combos of cards.

Added to this post are the 15 "easy" AI decks, the AI does not have any "can't play very well" cards in those decks. Just replace the ones of the same names in
..yourForgedirectory\res\quest\world\innistrad\duels

For the medium and hard, it will not go that easily sadly.

Maybe i'll just limit myself to max 2 "can't play very well" card to avoid breaking those decks. After all "main world" has several decks with 2 "can't play very well" cards too and it does not really have an impact on the AI deck difficulty.

so now we're at
Cultist 1 - AI no problem
Demonist 1 - AI no problem
Demonist 2 - AI no problem
Demonist 3 - AI can't play 1 card well
Ghost 1 - AI no problem
Ghost 2 - AI can't play 3 cards well
Ghost 3 - AI no problem
Ghoul 1 - AI no problem
Guards 1 - AI no problem
Guards 2 - AI can't play 3 cards well
Guards 2 - AI no problem
Inquisitor 1 - AI no problem
Inquisitor 2 - AI can't play 2 cards well
Necro 1 - AI no problem
Necro 2 - AI can't play 3 cards well
Necro 3 - AI can't play 1 card well
Priest 1 - AI no problem
Priest 2 - AI can't play 2 cards well
Priest 3 - AI can't play 2 cards well
Slayer 1 - AI no problem
Slayer 2 - AI can't play 3 cards well
Slayer 3 - AI can't play 1 card well
Sorcerer 1 - AI no problem
Specter 1 - AI no problem
Specter 2 - AI can't play 2 cards well
Vampire 1 - AI no problem
Vampire 2 - AI no problem
Warlord 1 - AI no problem
Warlord 3 - AI can't play 1 card well
Witch 1 - AI no problem
Witch 2 - AI can't play 3 cards well
Witch 3 - AI no problem
Zombie 1 - AI no problem
Zombie 2 - AI no problem
Zombie 3 - AI can't play 3 cards well