Inner workings of certain spells

[davidme]

Hi,

I'm a longtime player from Kentucky.

I'm building a cube and want to include the unique cards like Aswan Jaguar from Shandalar, but I have questions about the inner workings of the program and how it handles the activations of the some of the cards. For example...

When a card like Pandora's Box says "deck", does it mean the deck as it was at the start of the game, or does it mean "library"?

Does Aswan Jaguar choose from all the instances of each card in a deck or just from each playset? (eg, Would 4 Prodigal Sorcerors, 4 Shivan Dragons, and 4 Serra Angels call for a 3-sided die because of 3 different creatures, or would you need a 12-sided die for each different copy?) And does "deck" mean "library" or does it mean the deck as it was at game start? (not including sideboard)

Does the computer choose linearly for Whimsy or is it a bell curve?

I'd be happy to buy this information or send paper cards if people can recommend someone that would know and be willing to answer? I messaged CirothUngol several days ago, but he apparently hasn't logged on in a few weeks.

Help? I've been thinking about this for YEARS!

-Dave (also, anyone with similar knowledge of the Japanese Sega Dreamcast game could be a big help too!)

[davidme]

Or if anyone has another strategy for finding this info, could you help me out, please?

[Aswan jaguar]

If you mean for Shandalar the (adventure part) play I don't know how Aswan Jaguar works(never played much) but in Duel-Gauntlet the original card choose a creature type from the ones in deck like it says on the card.If you put a creature card from outside the game like with Ring of Maruh I don't know if the new type would be hunted down, I never tested. According to wording Aswan Jaguar shuld be able to do so but I don't know if it is supported by engine.

How the card works now though is different from original in Gauntlet-Duel,..(in Shandalar there is a chance that works as it was originally set to work) as due to hacks the card hunts from all possible creature types of all cards coded.

About Pandora's Box have absolutely no idea,I played it just once.

[davidme]

Well, heck. I am really wanting to know the original. I guess this information is just too tough to get.

[jiansonz]

No hard evidence, but a lot of playing experience suggests to me that all possible creatures are equally likely to be picked by Aswar Jaguar or Pandora's Box, no matter if there is 1 or 4 copies of the creature in the deck. If it's in the deck, the chance to be picked seems to be '1 in (total number of different creatures)'.

[davidme]

Thanks jiansonz! Do you know if it ever picks cards that are already in play and not in library anymore? I'm thinking "deck" might mean "as it was at the start of the game"...?

[CirothUngol]

Here's an excerpt from a PM I just sent:

-=> questions about "Deck" vs "Library" here <=-

Oh wow... minor misconception time. You see, in times of yore, when MtG where just a wee CCG of few years, there was a rather loose standard for concepts like "Deck", "Library", "Discard", "Destroy", and "Play"... and even that loose standard was not obeyed across the board. As an MtG old-skooler (I bought my first few StarterDecks 2 months before Arabian Nights was released), I see where the problem is. Check out the revised Card Wording either in Manalink 3.0 or HERE on Wikipedia.
To answer the question, "Deck"="Library" and they choose randomly amongst the objects present:
4 card1 + 4 card2 = 8 sided die, likewise:
4 card1 + 2 card2 + 1 card3 + 1 card4 = 8 sided die.

To verify Aswan Jaguar, start a game with opponent's deck containing 3 or 4 creatures of different types and challenge with a deck containing 4 Aswan Jaguar + 4 Jester's Cap. The Jaguars should read "None" after removing all of the creatures from your opponent's Library with the Cap.

Suggestion for easy Randomness:
To select a random creature from Your Library, have Opponent cut Your Library and reveal cards from the the top until a creature appears. Shuffle afterwards. It's not exactly like the computer does it, but the effect is nearly the same and it's much more player-friendly

Does the computer choose linearly for Whimsy or is it a bell curve?

The User Messages for Whimsy, Faerie Dragon, etc. can be found in the "Prompts*.txt" files, so you could just load-up a couple of PlayDecks with them and track how often each one appears... shouldn't take very long. My experience with adding messages to the @DIALOG section of the "Text.res" file would suggest linear, but I've never actually monitored it.
...you did know that they only choose from about 20 different (and old) effects, right?

...am I wrong?

[davidme]

Glad your here, Ciroth. I appreciate it!

I agree about badly worded cards over the years. Yes, "play", "destroy", and "discard" have probably all been used incorrectly on cards. I remember they would mean "destroy" and say "discard" for cards in play, sometimes.

But, believe it or not, they have never, not once, used "deck" incorrectly. Not even in Alpha, AN, etc. They only decided to use "deck" in Portal instead of "library" because it was simpler. "Deck" is on ante cards, subgame cards, "removed from game" cards in the early years to remind players to put them back in deck next game, Wishes and R./Ma'Ruf, and Relentless Rats. The 10 cards in the Sega Dreamcast computer game don't reference the word. It's never been used incorrectly on a printed card. So if this was wrong on Aswan, it's the only time they've ever done it, and I just don't wanna believe it!

Here's the thing: I think Aswan Jaguar could randomly select a single copy of a creature that's already in play. I think I vaguely remember this happening years ago when I played. And it would make it a slightly better card. Just wanting to get this one as right as I can. I know I'm probably putting way too much thought into it.

Also, if Aswan randomly selected from the number of creature TYPES, then the card would be worded exactly correctly. I recognize this is a separate issue though.

Are your ideas about Aswan from changed versions of the software that may have been reprogrammed and significantly altered over the years? I'm interested in the original, really. This is a mystery I've been wondering about for a couple of years.

I tried to load up the game to try to figure out how to test these ideas. It's been 2 or 3 years at least since I played it. But now it just has blank menus when I right-select to save a deck. I can't figure out how to fix it a.t.m.

Whimsy/Faerie Dragon effects: I did all that counting of effects manually a couple years ago! Noted and counted all the effects, but I couldn't determine conclusively if it was linear. I'm pretty sure it would be, even though some effects were chosen several more times than others (between 1 and 6 times). I'm not quite as concerned about this as Aswan, but was interested a bit.

I think I'm missing at least one of the choices for Faerie Dragon. Here's what I have:
casts Berserk!
...
casts Bloodlust!
casts Lifelace!
casts Purelace!
casts Chaoslace!
casts Lightning Bolt!
casts Jump!
casts Giant Growth!
activates Helm of Chatzuk effect!
casts Deathlace!
casts Thoughtlace!
activates Hurr Jackal effect!
...
activates Pradesh Gypsies effect!
casts Unsummon!
activates Rod Of Ruin effect!
activates Sorceress Queen effect!
casts Swords To Plowshares!
casts Orcish Catapult!
...

I'm pretty sure one is Tawnos' Wand and one is Twiddle. I think there's another...unless Twiddle has two separate lines like Whimsy, but I think it worked differently for the Dragon and let you choose "tap or untap" rather than that being random too, as in Whimsy.

Anyway, thanks a ton for your great responses! I feel I'm finally on the trail for answers! : )

Later! Must sleep...

-Dave

[jiansonz]

I've seen at least one more Faerie Dragon/Whimsy effect: Nevinyrral's Disk.

It has saved me from otherwise certain defeat twice. Once where I desperately cast a 7-point Whimsy the turn before enemy fliers would have killed me and once where the enemy's Faerie Dragon caused it the turn before I would have been killed by creature attacks.

[davidme]

I have Nevvie's for Whimsy, but never saw it for Dragon. Any way this can be confirmed, folks?

[CirothUngol]

But, believe it or not, they have never, not once, used "deck" incorrectly.

I seem to remember "Deck" as one of the terms that was used improperly somewhere, but as I cannot recall any specific examples on printed cards I'll have to concede that one.

Here's the thing: I think Aswan Jaguar could randomly select a single copy of a creature that's already in play.

Nope. I just checked using the original DotP\Manalink 1.3.2 install. Aswan Jaguar will find a single lone copy of a creature in an Opponent's PlayDeck only if it is in the Opponent's Library, and not if it is in their Hand, on the BattleField, in their GraveYard or if it was Exiled... seriously, just experiment with it. Make a PlayDeck something like this:

4 Aswan Jaguar
4 Clone
4 Unsummon
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Millstone
4 Howling Mines

...and then give the Opponent a PlayDeck with 39 Land and a lone creature. It took maybe 10 minutes to try the Aswan Jaguar in all of the Zones. So now we know.

Also, if Aswan randomly selected from the number of creature TYPES, then the card would be worded exactly correctly.

This could probably be determined by giving the Opponent's PlayDeck 10 creatures of one type and 1 creature of a second type. Does the greater creature type come up just as often or 10 times as often?

Are your ideas about Aswan from changed versions of the software that may have been reprogrammed and significantly altered over the years?

No... I just read the amended Card Rules Text for Aswan Jaguar in Manalink 3.0, and figured it was probably right. If I remember correctly, the Astral Cards have always been "hard-wired" into Manalink... just like Basic Lands their code has remained unaltered to this day. In fact, I don't think they can be altered or removed (...anyone?).

I tried to load up the game to try to figure out how to test these ideas...But now it just has blank menus when I right-select to save a deck.

I'm unsure of which version you're attempting to use, but most versions often require a re-boot before Images and Text appear correctly. If it still gives you issues, and you're looking for the original old-skool version, try the Manalink 1.3.2 install available in my MtG download folder. Check my signature and look for \Manalink 1.3.2\MtG_DotP_Manalink_132.rar.

As for Whimsy\Faerie Dragon, I built a PlayDeck around them and played it against itself until over 100 effects had been generated:

4 Faerie Dragon
4 Whimsy
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Clone
4 Time Twister
4 Howling Mines
4 Sol Ring
4 Forest
4 Island
4 Tropical Island

Whimsy seems to really favor Disenchant, Healing Salve, Fissure, Millstone, Bottle of Suleiman, Fog and Sinbad... they appear 2 to 3 times as often as all the other effects, which other wise seem random. Faerie Dragon doesn't seem to favor any of it's effects like that... or perhaps it is truly random, and that's just the nature of randomness. ^_^
However, either card only produced the effects listed under their respective Heading in "Prompts.txt"

I think I'm missing at least one of the choices for Faerie Dragon...

The next two headings beneath @FAERIEDRAGON_MESSAGES are @FAERIEDRAGON_TWIDDLE and @FAERIEDRAGON_TAWNOSWAND... they are selected in place of the two ellipses.

...but I think it worked differently for the Dragon and let you choose "tap or untap" rather than that being random too, as in Whimsy.

Exactly right.

[jiansonz]

OK, I must have remembered it wrong then.

Nice experimenting, and interesting reading.

[davidme]

Ugh...just lost a big reply after timing out. I'll get back to this. Bed calls.

But THANKS a TON!

-Dave

[CirothUngol]

OK, I must have remembered it wrong then.

Well... Nevinyrral's Disk is one of the Whimsy effects, but not one of the Faerie Dragon effects

Ugh...just lost a big reply after timing out

I always copy\paste my text before attempting to submit, but if you back-up to the page you were on and hit the "Refresh" button, it should allow you to recover it. Been there, done that... it sucks.

[davidme]

Finally rigged it to work! Logitech mouse is incompatible, for one thing, strangely. Had 3 different versions running, not sure which was which, but I think these results come from a rework. I got screenshots of the ones that showed my menus and played another, which would actually not crash.

Here's my findings on Aswan type-searching:

Deck
20 Elder-Dragon Legends (Legend counted as a type, E-L as another)
1 Wizard

During 50 iterations, Aswan imprinted these types:
Legend: 12
E-D: 18
Wizard: 20

So it appears that it searches every type equally, even tho one was found fewer times, average was about 17, so it wasn't far off.
I see Aswan will be so hard to simulate in a real deck! I may just have to fudge with something similar to the above suggestion. : )

Very, very late for bed. Sun is up! More later!