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[confirmed]Convoke + sac for mana

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[confirmed]Convoke + sac for mana

Postby Korath » 09 Feb 2017, 13:46

Describe the Bug:
If you tap a creature to pay for a spell with convoke (I used Fallowsage, Hollowsage, and Chant of Vitu-Ghazi, none of which should matter), you can also sacrifice it to generate mana for the same spell (I used Phyrexian Altar).

(And if you do this, any triggers they get for becoming tapped, like Quest for Renewal, don't happen.)

Which card behaved improperly?
Convoke mechanic.

Which update are you using? (date, name)Which type? (duel, gauntlet, sealed deck)
Dev b98edab.

What exactly should be the correct behavior/interaction?
Under modern rules, you have to finish generating mana before you start paying a spell's cost; and convoke (and delve and improvise) neither change a spell's cost nor generate mana, but give you another way to pay a mana cost.

601.2g If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a chance to activate mana abilities (see rule 605, "Mana Abilities"). Mana abilities must be activated before costs are paid.

702.50a Convoke is a static ability that functions while the spell with convoke is on the stack. "Convoke" means "For each colored mana in this spell's total cost, you may tap an untapped creature of that color you control rather than pay that mana. For each generic mana in this spell's total cost, you may tap an untapped creature you control rather than pay that mana." The convoke ability isn't an additional or alternative cost and applies only after the total cost of the spell with convoke is determined.

This specific case (though it follows from the comp rules quoted above) is specifically called out in rulings for most/all convoke and improvise cards:
7/18/2014: If a creature you control has a mana ability with {T} in the cost, activating that ability while casting a spell with convoke will result in the creature being tapped when you pay the spell's costs. You won't be able to tap it again for convoke. Similarly, if you sacrifice a creature to activate a mana ability while casting a spell with convoke, that creature won't be on the battlefield when you pay the spell's costs, so you won't be able to tap it for convoke.

Are any other cards possibly affected by this bug?
Ashnod's Altar, Priest of Yawgmoth, Orcish Lumberjack, Lake of the Dead, Soldevi Adnate, Jungle Patrol, Diamond Kaleidoscope, Squandered Resources, Phyrexian Tower, Rain of Filth, and Skirk Prospector all sacrifice things as a cost to activate for mana. (For some of them, you need other effects like Living Lands to turn the things they sac into creatures, of course.) There's plenty more, but I stopped looking after that. It's not the fault of the sac outlet anyway.

Sacrifice, Burnt Offering, Culling the Weak, and Infernal Plunge are slightly different cases than the above, but again, it's not their fault.

Plenty of other cards triggering on creatures becoming tapped, too, but that's still not their fault.
Last edited by Aswan jaguar on 10 Feb 2017, 12:51, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: confirmed both bugs
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