Banned Cards

[drleg3nd]

Hey guys i would like to request to all modder's decks with unconditional dual lands,moxes,ancestral recall if its possible to remove them or make two versions ? i really like all these decks but since i been playing online with them they just feel cheap and overpowered. Been playing with multeyemeteor and nim-phizzet and we would like to do a tournament or some kind of event to promote all modders work and effort with these decks and also of course to have fun. As of the moment it is kind of a hindrance to play against these decks if you want to play for example,fireminds decks, which is geared toward balance. Thanks

[Scion of Darkness]

I don't want to disrespect and you have a valid opinion, but that don't look like a good idea, the best way is to skip them or remove the wads you dont like, i cant speak in the name of other modders, but for example in my Sliver deck if i take out for example the dual lands, it would become almost unnusuable

[RiiakShiNal]

Not to mention that tournaments have many different rule sets that can be followed each with their own lists of banned cards. For example in Standard and Extended all Slivers are banned (because they are not in sets that are new enough). Classic has no banned cards, but there are some restricted cards (which do not include those listed in the OP), Freeform has nothing banned or restricted. Ancestral Recall and the Moxes are restricted in Vintage and banned in Legacy, but neither of those formats bans or restricts the unconditional dual lands.

Because there are so many different rule sets and decks are built using a specific rule set there really is no way for the modders to make multiple versions of a deck just by replacing a couple of cards. If you want a deck changed to meet the specific rule set you want for your tournament then either you or the players in your tournament will have to make them because the modder who originally made the deck and released it is happy enough with it that they decided to release it.

Tournaments don't really work well with a game like DotP because there aren't really any surprises, everyone will know what everyone else has available (because everyone has to have the same wads or they can't play). About the only way it could work would be that each player would have to build and submit the deck they are going to play to the organizer (the organizer would not be allowed to participate in the tournament), the organizer then checks the deck and all cards used for bugs and to make sure they adhere to the chosen rule set, and marks down the deck that player is going to use. Once all players have built and submitted valid decks then the organizer finalizes the list and distributes all the wads to the tournament players. During the tournament each player would be required to use the deck they submitted to the organizer without changes (configuration via unlocks would still be allowed, but the wad can't be changed) or they are disqualified. Now as you can see it would be fairly difficult to hold a DotP tournament because not everyone is going to be able to make a deck and the organizer must be knowledgeable enough to check for bugs in the coding of the cards (new decks will more than likely need new cards to be coded).

[drleg3nd]

hey scion when i was talking bout dual lands i meant lands such as :tundra,tropical island,etc as opposed to shock lands or fetch lands.
i understand what your saying riiak, but as a fan of these mods and not a modder myself i cant understand why so many mods have these cards in this type of platform where they competely overrun alot of the other decks,after awhile it loses alot of the challenge and fun factor. I hope i didn't offend anyone i just wanted to put out my opinion on this matter and if possible they will be changed or at least future mods wont follow suit.

[Scion of Darkness]

You din't offend, no prob bro, what we can do is try to teach how to mod them and do the changes more suitable to your liking, now we have a open card database that im starting and i will clean it to be more easy to use, and if you or another user sees that even if the deck is great but have some cards i would change or for that tournament i want to take out the banned cards, it would be as simple as extract a wad and change some text in the deck .xm


I know my english is bad hehehe =P

[thefiremind]

i cant understand why so many mods have these cards in this type of platform where they competely overrun alot of the other decks,after awhile it loses alot of the challenge and fun factor.

You can't even imagine how much I agree with you. But I also find some combo decks boring (just waiting for a sequence of cards to draw is too similar to Bingo for me ), while other players find them funny, so who am I to judge?

If you want an idea for this tournament you want to organize, I thought about this: since decks are usually balanced when compared to other decks from the same mod (either they are all super-powered or all moderate), make the players use decks from only one mod for each tournament round. For example: all decks from my mod for the quarter finals, all decks from RiiakShiNal's mod for the semi finals, etc.

[drleg3nd]

that would be cool scion, if you say it is as easy as you say it is that would be great, since i have alot of decks ideas but didnt want to bother no one to make them.please link me to that site and/or tutorial.
thats a nice idea firemind thx for the input, i will try to set one up with ideas from you and riiak. anyone who is interested send me a friend request on steam:drleg3nd. these events are originally multeyemeteor idea and i just wanna get the ball rolling since it will be fun to do. Also modders and casual players alike chk out modded for greatness on youtube by mult,its pretty cool gameplay and commentary on these modded decks.

[RiiakShiNal]

You definitely did not offend me. I understand that you find the unrestricted dual lands unfair (so did WotC because they never reprinted them). I was merely pointing out that whether they are allowed or not depends on the format of the tournament and asking modders to make multiple versions of their deck just isn't reasonable. Banned lists vary depending on what format is being played or if there are specific rules for a specific tournament (Freeform for example has no banned cards). Modders may have included some of these cards (like the moxes) in their decks because the base game uses some of these cards in one or more of the decks (for example the Bolas revenge deck has 4 copies each of 3 of the moxes, Mox Jet, Mox Ruby, and Mox Sapphire).

As for having people make their own decks for a tournament, if we have a very simple tool that allows people to make decks out of existing cards (or even a list of cards as defined by the people organizing the tournament) then it very well could be possible for them to make their own decks. If the decks are made from existing cards that are known good then the need to check for bugs would be eliminated. I haven't really looked at any of the deck creators in detail from the utilities section so I don't know if they would fit the bill as a simple tool for non-modders or not.

If the tournament is simply to show off the modding community and the mods that are available then using thefiremind's idea of using only decks from a single modder (or a single pack) for each round sounds good to me because I believe he is right that the decks are generally balanced against each other. The decks from my mod (as currently released) were actually designed by WotC (from DotP 2010, even bearing the same names) I just re-coded them for DotP 2013 so I can't really take creative credit for them.

[NEMESiS]

I find some the "12 mox and 4 Ancestral recall" decks a bit boring myself. I too have made some overpowered decks so I hope I don't offend anyone. I prefer the balanced theme based decks A LOT more because to me that shows a lot more creativity and deck building skills rather then a "Turn 1, Land, Mox, Sol Ring, Tinker, I win next turn." I never posted this because I am not one to tell anyone what to do with their decks or how to build them.

[Scion of Darkness]

You could start on this topic have lots of info on deck edition viewtopic.php?f=62&t=9566, if you need more help just ask

[multeyemeteor]

Hi,

I wanted to join in on the discussion, since Dr. Leg3nd brought my attention to his thread, and since I felt partly responsible for initiating the discussion (if that's not too pompous of me to assume). I made a video about this on my channel a short while back, because while I felt that your work (you being the modders) was amazing and almost entirely well done, that I started seeing larger scale implications, which I felt weren't being considered. Now, there's no doubt that no one should tell you guys how to do the things you do, and one of the liberating things about modding communities is that they tend to be a melting pot of creativity and great ideas. So, don't get me wrong, I never felt like you guys should be restricted in your work and hobby that is, modding for the DotP games. What I originally appealed to you guys about (sorry for not taking the discussion on this forum, rather than on Youtube), was that I felt that it would be mutually beneficial (for the modding community and for us, the people who appreciate and use the mods you create) if we could nip some of the issues in the bud, before they become actual problems, which will end up discouraging people from trying out the modded versions of DotP.

I originally made my video, while being a tad annoyed at what I saw as fundamental flaws in the creations of some of the decks made available. Some of these flaws were: a) hosting banned or restricted cards just for the sake of ramping or for their efficiency, without consideration paid to how they would influence of the gameplay environment in general - an environment almost entirely made up of default decks, which do not enjoy the luxury of e.g. super efficient ramping or even conditional dual lands. b) being build around too efficient combos, which leaves the opponent with no means of response.. bear in mind that this is not a constructed environment that allows people to play the metagame and/or sideboard in cards made to respond to prominent threats in standard play. c) some decks seem like they are made to test out wacky ideas... outside of the confines of a multiplayer environment, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Some players might even enjoy playing against each other with decks, which are either too OP or a bit silly. However, for the most part, we should perhaps be careful to scrutinize new decks and inform the people who download a little better.

Now, to make my point a little clearer and more concise, what I would like to do is to try to establish a connection between the modding community, and the people who play the decks, without being active, deck-creating members of the community, and perhaps try to create a set of deck-creation principles, and perhaps lists, which all deck-creators and players can consult, so that we can build a community, e.g. with tournament-events, who can enjoy both DotP2013 and your great work in a multiplayer environment, and feel safe that the community at large is interested in securing that the general pool of decks is well enough made and balanced to the point that they can serve as a standard, where all decks stand a chance against each other. Again, this appeal has nothing to do with trying to tell you guys how to do your work, and I'll be the last person to try to force any restrictions on your creativity (not that I could if I would). Instead just consider this a proposition, where I hope that we together can forge a strong community, which can encompass the already existing community of modders, and those of us (a growing number), who aren't modding-savvy, yet enjoy playing with your creations, whereas some of us (myself for example) see a lot of people every week, asking me how they can take part in it, because they like what they see in my "Modded for Greatness" videos.

I hope you won't take my post the wrong way, because I mean no offense. I'm very grateful to be able to have DotP2013 be extended in its longevity, and I and my subs on Youtube love playing with the decks you make, so thanks for your great work!

[thefiremind]

I'm sure that the message wasn't directed to me, since my decks are already quite balanced comparing to the official ones (well, more or less... good deck building has never been one of my features ), and that's because I don't like to build decks that drift away too much from the original ones, also rule-wise (i.e. I don't make cards that need to implement a mana ability as an activated non-mana ability because mixing auto-tapping and manual tapping feels ugly to me). Anyway I want to let you know that you have my support, and if some day you come up with those guidelines, feel free to ask me to adapt my decks to them when needed. While modding, the deck list creation takes away very few time: most time is spent coding cards (which is something I enjoy especially when the card is challenging) and making textures for deck boxes, avatars and preview cards (which is something I hate ), so changing some cards on the deck lists wouldn't be much of a burden.

[Scion of Darkness]

I agree to a certain degree, and even if my work isn't that great compared to thefiremind and other great modders some of my decks are overpowered but I don't think that that is too bad it's more a question of lack of information but that's why I make my wads individually, that way you could remove a deck if you don't enjoy it and keep the others, but tonight ill try at least to make a better intro on my decks