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Thieves' Auction

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Thieves' Auction

Postby FranAvalon » 17 Nov 2012, 09:53

It let me pick an Enchant Creature Aura as my first pick. It didn't come into play, but it also never appeared in the list again. The rulings on Gatherer contradict each other (one says it can't be chosen; another says it can be chosen but doesn't enter play and remains available to be picked later), but they agree that that shouldn't happen.


Quote:
10/4/2004 You can't pick a card that can't legally be returned to play. If there are no cards that can be legally returned, then you can't pick one.
8/1/2005 If you choose an Aura, you can put it on any permanent it can legally enchant. If there is nothing it can legally enchant, it remains removed from the game, and it can still be chosen by you or another player later in the auction. If there comes a point where only Auras and no legal permanents left, they stay removed from the game permanently.


But! The same rulings appear on MagicCards.info, but with different dates:


Quote:
# If you choose an Aura, you can put it on any permanent it can legally enchant. If there is nothing it can legally enchant, it remains removed from the game... and it can still be chosen by you or another player later in the auction. If there comes a point where only Auras with no legal permanent are left, they stay removed from the game permanently. [MM FAQ 1999/09/22]
# You cannot pick a card that cannot legally be returned to play (see Rule 413.2c). If there are no cards that can be legally returned, then you cannot pick one. If no player can pick one, the effect ends. [D'Angelo 2003/12/13]


In that one, the more recent one refers to an actual rule number:


Quote:
413.2c If an effect offers any choices other than choices already made as part of playing the spell or ability, the player announces these while applying the effect. The player can't choose an option that's illegal or impossible, with the exception that having an empty library doesn't make drawing a card an impossible action (see rule 423.3).


So I'm pretty sure that's the right one. That means I shouldn't be able to pick an aura at all if there's nothing it can legally enchant. [FIXED - sort of]

Third, any ability that triggers during the resolution of Thieves' Auction (either leaving play or entering play) doesn't go on the stack until it's finished resolving, so targets aren't chosen until everything's come back into play. This means a Nekrataal should be able to target a creature that comes into play after it does, for example.

Finally, the card shouldn't go to the graveyard until it's finished resolving.

1.5.2

The Aura thing has a different bug now. I posted more about that in the Open the Vaults topic, because it might be related to that.

The triggered ability bug is still there. When I pick an Anarchist (with no Sorceries in my graveyard yet), I can only ignore the trigger, but I should be able to target the Thieves' Auction after it finishes resolving. The ability shouldn't go on the stack until then.

Notes
________________________________________
(0000458)
John Doe
2010-07-18 10:05
(edited on: 2010-07-18 10:07)
[I just tried Thieves' Auction with Agility and Cinder Wall. I couldn't choose the aura as my first pick (it wasn't in the list) and after there was a creature on the battlefield it appeared in the list and as I selected Agility I could choose which creature it should enchant. (And I could select opponent's cards and put them on my battlefield-side as well as mine.)
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Re: Thieves' Auction

Postby Snacko » 18 Nov 2012, 16:54

This a very convoluted case of rules, which many people don't understand.
The main keywords here are:
enter the battlefield
priority
static abilities
aura coming from any zone except stack

By no means those 2 rules are contradictory to each other as you suggested.
First you check whenever the card type can enter the battlefield. You need to consider static effects like: Lands can't enter the battlefield.
This is the step "chooses one of the exiled cards", Auras under normal conditions are able to enter the battlefield. Then when an Aura is chosen you need to chose target for it to enchant, this step fails so it doesn't leave exile zone. (303.4f and 303.4g)
This also means that static effects take place immediately, which can prohibit you from getting some cards back into battlefield.

Why abilities don't trigger ?
Well they do however while the spell is resolving no player has priority meaning that all triggered abilities haven't been put onto stack. (116.2a)

Also you need to remember both players can't repeatedly chose "illegal auras" due to fragmented loop rule (716.3).

So in short, yes you can chose auras which don't have valid targets, but you can't create a loop.
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