P/T-setting effects and layers

[travolter]

dinghammer reported:

P/T adjustments from counters should always be applied after P/T-setting effects. They're not.

Godhead of Awe makes all Spike creatures 1/1, no matter how many counters are on them. They should instead get +1/+1, because they start out as 0/0. It doesn't matter whether they're on the battlefield when the Godhead is cast or are cast later.

Kicker cards work differently. If I have an Anavolver that had its blue kicker cost paid on the battlefield, then cast a Godhead of Awe, the Anavolver becomes 1/1. If the Godhead is already on the battlefield, then I cast an Anavolver and pay the blue kicker cost, it enters the battlefield as a 3/3, as it should.

Diminish makes Spike creatures 1/1. Just like with the Godhead, they should get +1/+1, because they start as 0/0.

If this has already been reported, I failed to find it in my search.

613.3. Within layer 7, apply effects in a series of sublayers in the order described below. Within each sublayer, apply effects in timestamp order. (See rule 613.6.) Note that dependency may alter the order in which effects are applied within a sublayer. (See rule 613.7.)

613.3a Layer 7a: Effects from characteristic-defining abilities are applied. See rule 604.3.

613.3b Layer 7b: Effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value are applied.

613.3c Layer 7c: Effects that modify power and/or toughness (but don't set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value) are applied.

613.3d Layer 7d: Power and/or toughness changes from counters are applied. See rule 120.

Notes
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(0000535)
dinghammer
2010-08-09 15:58
I've just tested Godhead of Awe and Diminish with Tarmogoyf and Dauntless Dourbark (characteristic-defining abilities, layer 7a) and with Sound the Call and Copperhoof Vorrac (effects that modify power and/or toughness, layer 7c).

Godhead of Awe and Diminish (layer 7b) should always apply after the characteristic-defining abilities of creatures like Tarmogoyf and Dauntless Dourbark (layer 7a). Instead, the creatures become 1/1, but then they get +1/+1 if a new card type appears in a graveyard, or if I play another Forest or Treefolk. They should always be 1/1.

Godhead of Awe and Diminish (layer 7b) should always apply before the abilities of creatures like Copperhoof Vorrac and Sound the Call's Wolf tokens (layer 7c). Instead, those creatures become 1/1, no matter how many +1/+1s they should be getting. If I play another Sound the Call, the Wolfs get the bonus from that one, but they shouldn't be altered at all, because they're 1/1s to begin with. Copperhoof Varroc seemed to always be a 1/1, no matter how many untapped permanents my opponent controlled, though it may have grown larger if my opponent played a new untapped permanent (BotArena crashes too often for me to keep testing this until that happens). The Varroc should only get an overall -1/-1, because it starts as a 2/2 before its ability applies.

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(0000609)
Hector
2010-11-01 04:41
Mirror Entity + Glorious Anthem P/T effects seem to be calculated in correct layer order, but somehow creatures get an extra point in Toughness from somewhere. Power is correct.

For example Mirror Entity {X=3} activation + Glorious Anthem on table yields a 4(2)/5(2) Mirror Entity. Final P/T is correct (except the additional 1 T).

Mirror Entity
Color= White Type= Creature - Shapeshifter Cost= 2W LO(R)
Text (LO): 1/1, Changeling. ; : Creatures you control become X/X and gain all creature types until end of turn.

Glorious Anthem
Color= White Type= Enchantment Cost= 1WW US(R)/7(R)/8(R)/9(R)/10(R)
Text (7th/8th/9th/10): Creatures you control get +1/+1.