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Tidehollow Sculler and return-to-hand effects

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Tidehollow Sculler and return-to-hand effects

Postby travolter » 16 Nov 2012, 21:34

Dinghammer reported:

I've only tested this with Tidehollow Sculler and Master Transmuter, but I think it might also affect Oblivion Ring and all other cards that exile cards, then return them later. If it's just the Sculler, this can be changed to a card bug. A partial log with commentary is in Additional Information.

When a card with one of these abilities leaves the battlefield before its "exile X" ability resolves, it attempts to return the exiled card, but there's nothing to return. When its "exile X" ability resolves, X gets exiled and will never return. If the card with the "exile X" ability returns to the battlefield and leaves it again, that first exiled card shouldn't come back -- the Sculler or Ring or whatever is a new object now. The "return" ability is linked to the "exile" ability, so it only returns the card that was exiled by the "exile" ability on the same object (not the same card). When a card moves from one zone to another, it becomes a new object.

607.1. An object may have two abilities printed on it such that one of them causes actions to be taken or objects to be affected and the other one directly refers to those actions or objects. If so, these two abilities are linked: the second refers only to actions that were taken or objects that were affected by the first, and not by any other ability.

607.2a If an object has an activated or triggered ability printed on it that instructs a player to exile one or more cards and an ability printed on it that refers either to "the exiled cards" or to cards "exiled with [this object]," these abilities are linked. The second ability refers only to cards in the exile zone that were put there as a result of an instruction to exile them in the first ability.

400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence. There are six exceptions to this rule:

And none of the exceptions apply to this.

dinghammer's Beginning phase
=============== Computer (11) ====================================== Turn: 9 ==
|Library (43) |
| Wilt-Leaf Liege2(4/4) Brushland2 Knotvine Paladin2(2/2) |
|Graveyard ( 5) |
| Treefolk Harbinger3(0/3) Nameless Inversion Maelstrom Pulse2 |
| Maelstrom Pulse Path to Exile |
|Battlefield ( 7) |
| (T)Wooded Bastion2 (T)Forest2 (T)Forest |
| (T)Llanowar Wastes4 (T)Noble Hierarch2(0/1) Wooded Bastion4 |
| (T)Forest3 |
|Hand ( 2) |
| BGW:Doran,...Tower2(0/5) W:Path to Exile3 |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=============== dinghammer (19, Active, Priority) ================== Turn: 9 ==
|Library (40) |
| Tidehollow Sculler2(2/2) Wall of Omens(0/4) Island |
|Graveyard ( 5) |
| Path to Exile6 Path to Exile7 Sphinx Summoner4(3/3) |
| Sharuum th...gemon2(5/5) Path to Exile5 |
|Battlefield (11) |
| (T)Fieldmist Borderpost (T)Plains5 (T)Swamp4 |
| (T)Island2 (T)Plains4 Wall of Omens4(0/4) |
| Master Transmuter2(1/2) (T)Fieldmist Borderpost3 Pithing Needle |
| Prophetic Prism (T)Island4 |
|Hand ( 3) |
| 2W:Oblivion Ring2 Swamp5 Arcane Sanctum2 |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(dinghammer drew Tidehollow Sculler2)
dinghammer played Arcane Sanctum2
dinghammer cast Tidehollow Sculler2
dinghammer put triggered ability of Tidehollow Sculler2 on the stack (Tidehollow Sculler2)

--> This is the Sculler's "exile a card in hand" ability being put on the stack.

dinghammer activated Master Transmuter2 and moved one card
dinghammer put triggered ability of Tidehollow Sculler2 on the stack (Tidehollow Sculler2)

--> This is the Sculler's "return the exiled card" ability being put on the stack. Because the first ability hasn't resolved yet, nothing is returned.

Computer resolved triggered ability of Tidehollow Sculler2
dinghammer resolved triggered ability of Tidehollow Sculler2
(Select card interface)
dinghammer put Tidehollow Sculler2 to Battlefield
dinghammer put triggered ability of Tidehollow Sculler2 on the stack (Tidehollow Sculler2)
dinghammer selected Path to Exile3 for the triggered ability of Tidehollow Sculler2

--> That's the ability of the Sculler that was just put on the battlefield and is still there.

Computer revealed Doran, the Siege Tower2 in Computer's Hand
dinghammer selected Doran, the Siege Tower2 for the triggered ability of Tidehollow Sculler2

--> That's the ability of the Sculler that was bounced by the Transmuter. The "return the exiled card" ability triggered earlier and returned nothing. Doran should now be exiled forever.

Computer's Beginning phase
=============== Computer (11, Active, Priority) ==================== Turn:10 ==
|Library (43) |
| Wilt-Leaf Liege2(4/4) Brushland2 Knotvine Paladin2(2/2) |
|Graveyard ( 5) |
| Treefolk Harbinger3(0/3) Nameless Inversion Maelstrom Pulse2 |
| Maelstrom Pulse Path to Exile |
|Battlefield ( 7) |
| (T)Wooded Bastion2 (T)Forest2 (T)Forest |
| (T)Llanowar Wastes4 (T)Noble Hierarch2(0/1) Wooded Bastion4 |
| (T)Forest3 |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--> Computer now has no cards in hand. Later...

dinghammer activated Master Transmuter2 and moved one card
dinghammer put triggered ability of Tidehollow Sculler2 on the stack (Tidehollow Sculler2)
Computer resolved triggered ability of Tidehollow Sculler2
dinghammer resolved triggered ability of Tidehollow Sculler2
00:00:05
(Select card interface)
dinghammer put Tidehollow Sculler3 to Battlefield
dinghammer put triggered ability of Tidehollow Sculler3 on the stack (Tidehollow Sculler3)
00:00:04
Computer cast Path to Exile3 and targeted Master Transmuter2(1/2) and moved Master Transmuter2 to Exile
dinghammer Search your library
(Select card interface)
dinghammer selected Plains6 and put it into dinghammer's Battlefield
dinghammer selected Doran, the Siege Tower2 for the triggered ability of Tidehollow Sculler3
Computer revealed Knotvine Paladin2 in Computer's Hand
(Order card interface)

--> Notice how the computer casts Path to Exile3, then I pick Doran, the Siege Tower2 for the new Sculler. This shows that both cards were returned to the computer's hand, but only the Path should have been.


Notes
________________________________________
(0000400)
dinghammer
2010-06-16 03:29
Edited the description a bit to make it clearer that the abilities are linked to each other, not to the object, though the end result is the same. May have made it less clear.

________________________________________
(0000646)
dinghammer
2010-11-28 23:11
This also affects Mesmeric Fiend, which uses the same code, and Faceless Butcher, which doesn't. I believe it affects all cards that have similar abilities.

To test it, you just need an opponent with two nontoken creatures. Cast Faceless Butcher, choose a target for its enter-the-battlefield ability, then Unsummon it. Cast it again, and exile a second creature. Then either Unsummon it or kill it somehow, and both the exiled creatures will come back. Only the second one should.

________________________________________
(0000648)
dinghammer
2010-11-29 02:44
The remaining cards this affects are: Admonition Angel*, Faceless Devourer, Hypnox, Journey to Nowhere, Oblivion Ring, Petradon, Petravark, Realm Razer, Saprazzan Bailiff, Slithery Stalker, Worldgorger Dragon, Wormfang Behemoth, Wormfang Crab, Wormfang Drake, Wormfang Newt, and Wormfang Turtle.

* This bug is what lets Admonition Angel work the way it does now -- if this ends up being an engine fix, it might have to be changed to work properly again, though it's also affected by this bug. Play a land, put the trigger on the stack, and Momentary Blink her. That should exile the target permanent forever, but if she leaves play again, that permanent will return, even though it was exiled by a different object. So she might need two fixes.
travolter
 
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