Board index 
Programs with AI or Rules Enforcement Magic: The Gathering - Duels of the Planeswalkers New MTG Cards and Decks (2010, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, Magic Duels) 2014
Programs with AI or Rules Enforcement Magic: The Gathering - Duels of the Planeswalkers New MTG Cards and Decks (2010, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, Magic Duels) 2014
Help with Tokens and Manual Mana Tapping?
Moderator: CCGHQ Admins
7 posts
• Page 1 of 1
Help with Tokens and Manual Mana Tapping?
by AlphaMagnum » 22 Sep 2013, 23:34
First Question: Do you have these token files?
I got my hands on XML files for Wurmcoil Engine and Nest Invader, but can't seem to find the token files! The game runs just fine when I cast Nest Invader, but the token doesn't show up at all, which is kind of problematic. Would anyone be able to reply in this thread with the token files mentioned in the code? These are the ones I'm looking for:
"TOKEN_WURM_D_3_3_131554888"
"TOKEN_WURM_L_3_3_131552888"
"TOKEN_ELDRAZI_SPAWN_01SMA_972002"
I'm playing a deck that uses custom lands, particularly the manual mana basic lands made by RiiakShiNal. The lands in question:
These lands are awesome for one key reason: flexibility! If I don't feel like manually tapping lands, the game treats them like ordinary lands and will auto-tap them as required. Alternatively, I can manually generate the needed mana of the appropriate colors by using the lands' activated abilities. Furthermore, they show up in the basic land section, so I can actually see them when trying to pay the cost for an activated ability on the battlefield (e.g. an equip cost). All the nonbasic lands end up with my other nonland cards, and thus get covered up when I need to pay costs, making it impossible to choose which lands get tapped.
With all that in mind, I tried to add the same functionality to two Hideaway lands which feature prominently in my deck: Windbrisk Heights and Mosswort Bridge. These lands are especially key, since if they tap themselves to pay a cost I can't use their activated abilities!
Here's the original land:
I got my hands on XML files for Wurmcoil Engine and Nest Invader, but can't seem to find the token files! The game runs just fine when I cast Nest Invader, but the token doesn't show up at all, which is kind of problematic. Would anyone be able to reply in this thread with the token files mentioned in the code? These are the ones I'm looking for:
"TOKEN_WURM_D_3_3_131554888"
"TOKEN_WURM_L_3_3_131552888"
"TOKEN_ELDRAZI_SPAWN_01SMA_972002"
- Wurmcoil Engine 888207875 | Open
- Nest Invader 275261 | Open
I'm playing a deck that uses custom lands, particularly the manual mana basic lands made by RiiakShiNal. The lands in question:
These lands are awesome for one key reason: flexibility! If I don't feel like manually tapping lands, the game treats them like ordinary lands and will auto-tap them as required. Alternatively, I can manually generate the needed mana of the appropriate colors by using the lands' activated abilities. Furthermore, they show up in the basic land section, so I can actually see them when trying to pay the cost for an activated ability on the battlefield (e.g. an equip cost). All the nonbasic lands end up with my other nonland cards, and thus get covered up when I need to pay costs, making it impossible to choose which lands get tapped.
With all that in mind, I tried to add the same functionality to two Hideaway lands which feature prominently in my deck: Windbrisk Heights and Mosswort Bridge. These lands are especially key, since if they tap themselves to pay a cost I can't use their activated abilities!
Here's the original land:
- ORIGINAL Windbrisk Heights 444287338 | Open
- NEW Windbrisk Heights 444287338 | Open
- AlphaMagnum
- Posts: 37
- Joined: 15 Mar 2013, 18:21
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 0 time
Re: Help with Tokens and Manual Mana Tapping?
by AlphaMagnum » 22 Sep 2013, 23:34
And here are the two versions of Mosswort Bridge:
Also, if you notice any programming issues in the cards/modifications posted here, please let me know about them. I'm a total novice, so it's definitely possible that I've made a mess of things without knowing how or why. Thank you very much to anyone who can assist me here. I realize that you're busy people and taking the time to pore through the code here may definitely be tedious work.
~AlphaMagnum
EDIT: I realize that I've turned Mosswort Bridge and Windbrisk Heights into basic lands, which the original cards are not. This was a "blunt instrument" solution to my issue with where they appear on the battlefield. I would definitely check out a more 'Magic-legal' solution to this problem, if you have one.
- ORIGINAL Mosswort Bridge | Open
- NEW Mosswort Bridge | Open
- Razorverge Thicket 209407 | Open
- Noble Hierarch 627118 | Open
Also, if you notice any programming issues in the cards/modifications posted here, please let me know about them. I'm a total novice, so it's definitely possible that I've made a mess of things without knowing how or why. Thank you very much to anyone who can assist me here. I realize that you're busy people and taking the time to pore through the code here may definitely be tedious work.
~AlphaMagnum
EDIT: I realize that I've turned Mosswort Bridge and Windbrisk Heights into basic lands, which the original cards are not. This was a "blunt instrument" solution to my issue with where they appear on the battlefield. I would definitely check out a more 'Magic-legal' solution to this problem, if you have one.
- AlphaMagnum
- Posts: 37
- Joined: 15 Mar 2013, 18:21
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 0 time
Re: Help with Tokens and Manual Mana Tapping?
by RiiakShiNal » 23 Sep 2013, 02:09
There are advantages and disadvantages to all solutions for mana.
Auto-Tap:
Manual-Tap (using my functions):
I do understand the allure of having lands show up at the bottom of the screen. I would love to have non-basic lands show up there, but making them "Basic" is wrong and would add even more cons while not really adding many pros (cards that target non-basic lands would no longer work, cards that leave basic lands alone would also leave the non-basic lands alone). This would just cause too many problems.
I also understand that it would be nice to have the lands also be able to be auto-tapped, but this causes problems with lands that have other non-mana abilities on them which requires carefully considered availabilities and can lead to other problems. Auto-tap abilities can be added by using the MANA_ABILITY block though that tends to add many of the cons from auto-tapping then for a land like Razorverge Thicket you would have to add another activated ability to allow the user to choose which colour to produce when auto-tapping making the card even more complex.
Ultimately, the best solution would be engine supported MANA_ABILITY blocks with complex costs and results that can be auto-tapped or manual tapped at the user's option. Unfortunately, this is not possible (engine doesn't support it) so I opted to use the best possible solution I could, if someone can think of a better solution then I am all ears because I don't see one.
Auto-Tap:
- Pros:
- Computer can use it without problem.
- Simplistic for the user to use.
- Quick.
- Works with the mana select button.
- Does not require tapping the land before casting a spell or using an ability.
- Cons:
- Does not allow tricks like tapping a land for mana, then untapping it and tapping it for mana again such as using an Arbor Elf.
- Can only properly be used to produce 1 mana (if producing more than 1 mana it can't be split up, all mana must be used for a single cost or spell) like trying to use a Sol Ring to cast a Basilisk Collar and The Rack.
- Does not support costs other than tapping self like Ancient Spring.
- Can't handle multi-colour lands (anything more than 1 colour) like Razorverge Thicket.
- Does not fire BECAME_TAPPED_FOR_MANA so can't make Mana Flare.
- Can't do extra effects like take damage after producing mana, or return to hand in the mana ability like Adarkar Wastes and Ancient Tomb.
- Many cards can't be coded like Apprentice Wizard.
- Engine can't properly handle some abilities that require mana on a card that can produce auto-tapped mana like Academy Ruins.
- Can't handle producing mana at other times like Altar of Shadows.
Manual-Tap (using my functions):
- Pros:
- More rule compliant.
- Allows for complex costs.
- Works fine for multi-colour lands.
- Works fine for producing more than 1 mana.
- Will fire BECAME_TAPPED_FOR_MANA.
- Allows for complex results (doing more than just producing mana).
- Allows for mana tricks like tapping a land for mana, untapping it, then tapping it for mana again.
- If a land produces more than 1 mana it can be split up and used to cast multiple spells or use multiple abilities.
- Cons:
- Uses an activated ability instead of a mana ability to do the work (requires workarounds for some features/cards) which can interact with Burning-Tree Shaman (I made one using a workaround so my Burning-Tree Shaman will work properly with cards properly using my mana functions).
- Game does not recognize them as mana abilities which can lead to certain "mana" abilities not working properly. I try to compensate with a fallback to a mana ability when I can. Not all cards can have an auto-tap backup for example Apprentice Wizard can't have a fallback auto-tap ability.
- AI does not fully understand how to use manual tap mode (will often not cast spells that it actually does have the mana for). For example it won't cast a Tidehollow Strix even though it has two untapped Drowned Catacomb cards in play.
- Requires user to manually tap mana before using a spell or ability which requires more knowledge of the game and how mana works. This can lead to issues with not being able to use some card abilities even though technically you have the mana available (like the Miracle ability of Temporal Mastery).
- Even simple mana abilities require more code to be implemented properly.
I do understand the allure of having lands show up at the bottom of the screen. I would love to have non-basic lands show up there, but making them "Basic" is wrong and would add even more cons while not really adding many pros (cards that target non-basic lands would no longer work, cards that leave basic lands alone would also leave the non-basic lands alone). This would just cause too many problems.
I also understand that it would be nice to have the lands also be able to be auto-tapped, but this causes problems with lands that have other non-mana abilities on them which requires carefully considered availabilities and can lead to other problems. Auto-tap abilities can be added by using the MANA_ABILITY block though that tends to add many of the cons from auto-tapping then for a land like Razorverge Thicket you would have to add another activated ability to allow the user to choose which colour to produce when auto-tapping making the card even more complex.
Ultimately, the best solution would be engine supported MANA_ABILITY blocks with complex costs and results that can be auto-tapped or manual tapped at the user's option. Unfortunately, this is not possible (engine doesn't support it) so I opted to use the best possible solution I could, if someone can think of a better solution then I am all ears because I don't see one.
Just getting started: Xander9009's DotP 2014 Community Wad
Need a deck builder: DotP 2014 Deck Builder
Problems Modding: DotP 2014 Frequent Modding Mistakes
Need a deck builder: DotP 2014 Deck Builder
Problems Modding: DotP 2014 Frequent Modding Mistakes
- RiiakShiNal
- Programmer
- Posts: 2188
- Joined: 16 May 2011, 21:37
- Has thanked: 75 times
- Been thanked: 497 times
Re: Help with Tokens and Manual Mana Tapping?
by AlphaMagnum » 23 Sep 2013, 02:56
Thanks for chiming in!
Honestly, for basic lands, I think your manual mana functions are strictly superior to the original implementation. As I said in the OP, basic lands made with your functions do indeed auto-tap if I don't want to use the activated ability, and if I do want to control the mana more precisely then the functionality is there.
It's the dual lands, Razorverge Thicket in this case, which must be causing problems, I think. As I mentioned, using its activated ability caused the auto tapping to work as intended, so I'm guessing the problem didn't lie with my odd modification of the Hideaway lands, which functioned quite normally from my observation.
As a point of curiosity, how does the game handle Eye of Ugin, which was included in the original release? Does that land sit with the basics? Or out ahead with the nonland cards?
Honestly, for basic lands, I think your manual mana functions are strictly superior to the original implementation. As I said in the OP, basic lands made with your functions do indeed auto-tap if I don't want to use the activated ability, and if I do want to control the mana more precisely then the functionality is there.
It's the dual lands, Razorverge Thicket in this case, which must be causing problems, I think. As I mentioned, using its activated ability caused the auto tapping to work as intended, so I'm guessing the problem didn't lie with my odd modification of the Hideaway lands, which functioned quite normally from my observation.
As a point of curiosity, how does the game handle Eye of Ugin, which was included in the original release? Does that land sit with the basics? Or out ahead with the nonland cards?
- AlphaMagnum
- Posts: 37
- Joined: 15 Mar 2013, 18:21
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 0 time
Re: Help with Tokens and Manual Mana Tapping?
by RiiakShiNal » 23 Sep 2013, 12:31
In some respects the auto-tap functionality of the basic lands is a problem (sometimes a major problem). Because the auto-tap can't be removed from the basic lands the basic lands suffer from several of the cons of auto-tapping and don't interact with some other cards properly. For example Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger has an ability that says when an opponent taps land it shouldn't untap during it's controller's next untap step, but when mana sources are auto-tapped it doesn't work. Another example is Mana Flare, when land is auto-tapped the extra mana which should be produced isn't.AlphaMagnum wrote:Thanks for chiming in!
Honestly, for basic lands, I think your manual mana functions are strictly superior to the original implementation. As I said in the OP, basic lands made with your functions do indeed auto-tap if I don't want to use the activated ability, and if I do want to control the mana more precisely then the functionality is there.
I can't speak for all dual lands, but I can guarantee that Razorverge Thicket does work properly. In your original post you mentioned that the game was highlighting 3 mana sources including Razorverge Thicket, but that can't happen with my Razorverge Thicket because it doesn't have an auto-tap mana ability for the game to select (unless activated abilities were shut down, but in that case you wouldn't be able to manually tap it). So my guess is your problem lies elsewhere because the game can't select to tap lands for mana that have no MANA_ABILITY blocks currently available.AlphaMagnum wrote:It's the dual lands, Razorverge Thicket in this case, which must be causing problems, I think. As I mentioned, using its activated ability caused the auto tapping to work as intended, so I'm guessing the problem didn't lie with my odd modification of the Hideaway lands, which functioned quite normally from my observation.
Eye of Ugin does not sit with the basic lands; it sits on the main battlefield along with all other non-basic lands and permanents. Since Eye of Ugin has no mana abilities it is never selected for mana tapping and auto-tap/manual-tap has no meaning for it because it has no mana abilities.AlphaMagnum wrote:As a point of curiosity, how does the game handle Eye of Ugin, which was included in the original release? Does that land sit with the basics? Or out ahead with the nonland cards?
Just getting started: Xander9009's DotP 2014 Community Wad
Need a deck builder: DotP 2014 Deck Builder
Problems Modding: DotP 2014 Frequent Modding Mistakes
Need a deck builder: DotP 2014 Deck Builder
Problems Modding: DotP 2014 Frequent Modding Mistakes
- RiiakShiNal
- Programmer
- Posts: 2188
- Joined: 16 May 2011, 21:37
- Has thanked: 75 times
- Been thanked: 497 times
Re: Help with Tokens and Manual Mana Tapping?
by AlphaMagnum » 23 Sep 2013, 14:59
I noticed another odd situation today. This time it was Temple Garden, Noble Hierarch, two Windbrisk Heights, and one Mosswort Bridge. The Temple Garden is below, and the other cards are in the two opening posts of this thread.
Do you have any idea as to what happened? Does the auto-tap feature actually cycle through all possible combinations? Or only a few?
- Temple Garden 627864 | Open
Do you have any idea as to what happened? Does the auto-tap feature actually cycle through all possible combinations? Or only a few?
- AlphaMagnum
- Posts: 37
- Joined: 15 Mar 2013, 18:21
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 0 time
Re: Help with Tokens and Manual Mana Tapping?
by RiiakShiNal » 23 Sep 2013, 16:18
The auto-tap cycling only goes through combinations of colours not combinations/permutations of lands. Even then it will prefer lands of a specific colour that were put on the battlefield later. So for example if you have lands come into play in this order:
Windbrisk Heights, Plains, Forest, Mosswort Bridge, Forest, Plains, Forest, Temple Garden, Forest.
And the Temple Garden is set to green and you try to cast a
casting cost spell then no combination on auto-tap will tap Windbrisk Heights or Mosswort Bridge as the only combinations it would give would be:
If Temple Garden is set to white then the combinations would be this:
If you do a compare on the combinations using the available colours it becomes obvious:
Which given the available lands in the example are the only three ways to cast a casting cost spell.
I guess you could say that this is yet another con of auto-tapping. Manual tapping allows the user to tap any specific lands they want without having to worry about such the combinatorial rules used by the DotP engine on colours of mana. Having only manual tap on non-basic lands also allows you to save the special lands for when you actually want to use them rather than being forced to use them due to the engine's combinatorial rules.
Edit: Also due to these same rules you can get some odd situations where it will use land in play instead of mana tokens for a spell. For example you have a Forest in play and using my manual mana functions you tap it for a mana token, then put another Forest in play, then cast Llanowar Elves, the engine will tap and use the untapped Forest instead of using the mana token since the Forest entered the battlefield after the mana token entered the field even though a human player would want to use the mana token leaving the Forest untapped and usable for later.
Windbrisk Heights, Plains, Forest, Mosswort Bridge, Forest, Plains, Forest, Temple Garden, Forest.
And the Temple Garden is set to green and you try to cast a
casting cost spell then no combination on auto-tap will tap Windbrisk Heights or Mosswort Bridge as the only combinations it would give would be:- Forest, Temple Garden, Forest, Forest
- Forest, Temple Garden, Forest, Plains
- Forest, Temple Garden, Plains, Plains
If Temple Garden is set to white then the combinations would be this:
- Forest, Forest, Forest, Mosswort Bridge
- Forest, Forest, Forest, Temple Garden
- Forest, Forest, Temple Garden, Plains
If you do a compare on the combinations using the available colours it becomes obvious:
- , , ,
- , , ,
- , , ,
Which given the available lands in the example are the only three ways to cast a
casting cost spell.I guess you could say that this is yet another con of auto-tapping. Manual tapping allows the user to tap any specific lands they want without having to worry about such the combinatorial rules used by the DotP engine on colours of mana. Having only manual tap on non-basic lands also allows you to save the special lands for when you actually want to use them rather than being forced to use them due to the engine's combinatorial rules.
Edit: Also due to these same rules you can get some odd situations where it will use land in play instead of mana tokens for a spell. For example you have a Forest in play and using my manual mana functions you tap it for a
mana token, then put another Forest in play, then cast Llanowar Elves, the engine will tap and use the untapped Forest instead of using the mana token since the Forest entered the battlefield after the mana token entered the field even though a human player would want to use the mana token leaving the Forest untapped and usable for later.Just getting started: Xander9009's DotP 2014 Community Wad
Need a deck builder: DotP 2014 Deck Builder
Problems Modding: DotP 2014 Frequent Modding Mistakes
Need a deck builder: DotP 2014 Deck Builder
Problems Modding: DotP 2014 Frequent Modding Mistakes
- RiiakShiNal
- Programmer
- Posts: 2188
- Joined: 16 May 2011, 21:37
- Has thanked: 75 times
- Been thanked: 497 times
7 posts
• Page 1 of 1
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 35 guests