Collectible Card Game Headquarters

Xander9009 wrote:As far as lands go, the rarity rule wouldn't prevent mana fixing too badly. Khans of Tarkir and Return to Ravnica both had a 10 card cycle of common dual lands (Thornwood Falls and Azorius Guildgate), Eighth Edition had a 5 card cycle of uncommons (Salt Marsh), and assuming that we go with the main expansions, not special ones, then Dissension had (Simic Growth Chamber). The snow lands like Boreal Shelf are common, but are also only a 5-card cycle, not the full 10.

For triple color production, the only ones I know of are at least uncommon, but you've got the full 10-card cycle between Shards of Alara (Seaside Citadel) and Khans of Tarkir (Sandsteppe Citadel).

It's also possible to get some 5-color production at common level for a cost such as Rupture Spire, Shimmering Grotto (sort of), Transguild Promenade, or Unknown Shores, but that would mostly require either using your rare slots, going for the common dual taplands, or using artifacts.

Also, what should we do about cards that have multiple rarities available? I think I'd prefer to be more lenient: you can use the least rarity it's been available as (excluding possibly Alpha, Beta, Revised, and Unlimited since they were still working out the kinks back then).

Agree with you Xander, we could totally make it work with those types of lands. I have come around.

I'm going to miss my beloved Siege Rhinoes

someone could play with CW finally?

nachonal986 wrote:someone could play with CW finally?

Haven't tried again, actually. Just discussing it.

addict insane wrote:I hope I don't sound too harsh in m criticism to Nivmizzet's decks, so I'll start with the one I liked.

I beat my own record of maximum damage with the Elfrakul deck. I reached 6000, then realized I could reach more than that, but that it would imply a lot of tapping and untapping of creatures.

I liked it because even though it had the clunky Priest of Titania it still was a solid turn 3-4 win. As I remember it, I consistently won with it turn 3.

There were other decks that had a lot of illegal cards such as 4 Mox Sapphire and I don't like playing cards that aren't legal in any format, not even Vintage.

Most of the other decks die to Avacyn's Glory, and die hard to it. I don't remember beating Avacyn's with decks other than the ones you considered broken. Me being a Spike, I only play against Avacyn's, and hate losing to it.

Did you put your new decks into the CW decks? Maybe those are nice. Do they beat Avacyn's?

EDIT: Also, how will we handle sideboarding?

Actually, I'm pretty sure all my decks can wipe the floor with Avacyn's Glory (except maybe a couple slow starters which would still have a reasonable W/L against it). Are you using Avacyn's Glory against my decks (i.e. with AI using my decks), or vice versa? If the former then you can blame that on the AI not being able to play the decks because of complicated mechanics, if the latter then you're doing it wrong. It's funny that you mention this actually, because I used to use Goblin Gangland as my test deck -- if I couldn't consistently beat my optimised build of GG with a deck then I'd go back to the drawing board; when I started modding 2014 I started using my optimised version of AG as the test deck. Eventually, through a lot of experience I developed a good instinct of whether a deck was balanced in my mods meta without testing (like I've mentioned before, most are just powerful modern-legal decks with some tweaks that make them slightly more powerful).

There's only 1 deck that uses moxes and it's flagged as OP because it *is* stupidly OP and can win T1 (and is illegal in all sanctioned formats of mtg). I built it because I just wanted to have a little fun; I released it because people asked me to. Two decks use a full set of Sol Rings, one of them being another of the OP decks; I don't see a problem with the other deck using Sol Rings because they don't make it OP (its' all about context!)

Yes, the new decks are in the CW -- you might like the vampire deck 'A Horrible Night' and another deck 'Police State 2013' (based on world championship winning deck). You should also check out one of the older decks -- 'Life's Blessing'.

I also overhauled a few of the decks, and made other changes to many of the decks, so it may be worth having a look at them all again. I'm planning to change up the land base for 'Experiments in Grafting Hydra' too which should make it more streamline.

EDIT: okay, "wipe the floor with" is a bit of an overstatement, but I've just played six games against an optimised Avacyn's Glory (i.e. better than revenge AG), using a different deck each game, and I won every game. I guess my overstatement was a reaction to the gross mistruth in your post "and die hard to it". seriously?

nivmizzet1 wrote:
EDIT: okay, "wipe the floor with" is a bit of an overstatement, but I've just played six games against an optimised Avacyn's Glory (i.e. better than revenge AG), using a different deck each game, and I won every game. I guess my overstatement was a reaction to the gross mistruth in your post "and die hard to it".

Maybe it's because you're playing a custom game vs a deck you made. I was talking about playing against the Revenge campaign, where the AI gets fixed draws sometimes. I too tried to make an improved version of Avacyn's, but it seems in Revenge mode it gets better draws. You can see this if you make a replica of Avacyn's Revenge deck and play against it on custom game mode, you'll notice the draws become consistently worse.

Also, many of your decks have no way to answer Angelic Overseer, and even some of them don't have enough removal to deal with a Baneslayer Angel turn 5 or turn 4 accelerated with a Path to Exile. I know Baneslayer Angel is a problem card even in Legacy, which is why I don't play UR Delver since it only uses Lightning Bolt as removal, so decks like Vizkopa Mafia, if it doesn't draw removal, has no way of dealing with it because the Lifegain from the Angel is bigger.

So, yes, I do remember Angelic Overseer turn 5 was basically a scoop with many of your decks, as well as the nut draw of Champion of the Parish into Gather the Townsfolk into Fiend Hunter into another human into Angel bomb turn 5. I could try them again to see if maybe you made changes to them lately, anyways. But I'm pretty sure an improved version of Avacyn's in custom game mode does not get the sick draws that Revenge mode gets.

And I'm currently playing Vintage Storm, so as of right now turn 1 win doesn't sound so broken to me .

addict insane wrote:Maybe it's because you're playing a custom game vs a deck you made. I was talking about playing against the Revenge campaign, where the AI gets fixed draws sometimes. I too tried to make an improved version of Avacyn's, but it seems in Revenge mode it gets better draws. You can see this if you make a replica of Avacyn's Revenge deck and play against it on custom game mode, you'll notice the draws become consistently worse.

Also, many of your decks have no way to answer Angelic Overseer, and even some of them don't have enough removal to deal with a Baneslayer Angel turn 5 or turn 4 accelerated with a Path to Exile. I know Baneslayer Angel is a problem card even in Legacy, which is why I don't play UR Delver since it only uses Lightning Bolt as removal, so decks like Vizkopa Mafia, if it doesn't draw removal, has no way of dealing with it because the Lifegain from the Angel is bigger.

So, yes, I do remember Angelic Overseer turn 5 was basically a scoop with many of your decks, as well as the nut draw of Champion of the Parish into Gather the Townsfolk into Fiend Hunter into another human into Angel bomb turn 5. I could try them again to see if maybe you made changes to them lately, anyways. But I'm pretty sure an improved version of Avacyn's in custom game mode does not get the sick draws that Revenge mode gets.

And I'm currently playing Vintage Storm, so as of right now turn 1 win doesn't sound so broken to me .

I've played against revenge and my custom build and I haven't seen what you're describing. My custom build definitely feels stronger. Also, to my knowledge, the revenge decks don't get fixed hands -- it may seem like that from time to time, but that's just because the decks are well built. If you doubt this, have you ever seen the AI get mana screwed in revenge? I have. Why would that happen if the decks are fixed?

My decks have plenty of ways to deal with overseers and baneslayers, and those that don't usually can win before or soon after they hit the table so they're not an issue. FYI In those games I played, the AI played at least 1 overseer in every game, and on some occassions both an overseer and baneslayer (or two overseers, and sometimes even all three). I've now played using about 10 of my decks and I've lost a couple of times due to mana screw and things like that, but every time I lost with a deck I went best of 3 and won (2 of 3).

I'm getting the feeling you're just not familiar enough with the decks in the mod. There's no problem with that; you don't have to play the decks, and you don't have to like the decks. But please try to refrain from saying things that are untrue, it's not a good look.

If you're after turn-1 win decks, then fair enough, you definitely won't find them in my mod (well, except for that one deck). Personally, (most of the time) I don't enjoy knowing I can win turn 1-2 against a deck I know can't win until at least turn 4-5; it's a forgone conclusion -- what's the point in even playing when you know the result before you start?

One last thing, it's interesting that you mention Vizkopa Mafia; that's one of my least favourite decks, possibly one of the weakest, and it's synergy isn't the best. Having said that, I made some fairly major changes to that deck a little while ago; it's still probably one of the weaker decks, and not among my favourites, but it's definitely stronger than it was.

EDIT: well whattya know; I just thrashed Avacyn's Glory with Vizkopa Mafia. Baneslayer and all.

Ok, I'd like to give your decks a try again. Maybe all I tried were the weaker ones.

Also, there's a thread here about how Campaign matches are fixed. I think it was Riiak who gave the final answer on how they are coded. You can look it up it's called something like "about avacyn's strength in Revenge mode" or something like that. But strength is mispelled, I remember that little detail 'cause I started the thread.

I'm playing Vintage because I'm tired of my Rhinoes getting Fiend Huntered and because I need to increase my usage of black and blue spells. Hope you can recommend me some of your decks in colors not green

Don't feel pressured into it on my account. I recommend you try cerebrum exhauriunt, flash point, ascension storm, fire & lightning, life's blessing, the meaning of life, sustained concussion, stream of consciousness, hell rising, and the decks I mentioned earlier; they're some of my favourite decks and are all pretty powerful. Unfortunately I don't have a storm deck (although ascension storm can feel like one when it gets going). I almost made one during my recent spurt of inspiration, but it didn't come together in the end. I was trying to exploit heartless summoning, harvester of souls, and a bunch of low health cheap artifact creatures -- you can see why it didn't come together. I could just look up a successful storm deck, but I enjoy the creative aspect of deck building.

EDIT: I can't find that thread -- I searched 'avacyn revenge' and only three threads showed up, one of them being this one, and the other two definitely weren't it.

I'd also recommend the zombie deck 'grimgrin's mortician', it's also one of my favourites, but I think it might be a bit slow for you, even though I just beat AG with it before.

Here is the thread: viewtopic.php?f=62&t=16848

Just re-downloaded CW decks. Will try them tonight.

EDIT: And here's a deck abusing Heartless Summoning http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/bud ... -summoning

addict insane wrote:Here is the thread: viewtopic.php?f=62&t=16848

oh right, I remember now. I think I've actually seen the code. But I thought it was that certain cards were 'held back' in easier modes, whereas in harder modes all cards become 'fair game'. i.e. rather than stacking the deck in the harder mode, it 'unstacks' the deck in easier modes. I could be wrong though. If you want I can put the custom version of avacyn's I've been using into the CW if you want to compare the difficulty/consistency between that and revenge.

nivmizzet1 wrote:

addict insane wrote:Here is the thread: viewtopic.php?f=62&t=16848

oh right, I remember now. I think I've actually seen the code. But I thought it was that certain cards were 'held back' in easier modes, whereas in harder modes all cards become 'fair game'. i.e. rather than stacking the deck in the harder mode, it 'unstacks' the deck in easier modes. I could be wrong though. If you want I can put the custom version of avacyn's I've been using into the CW if you want to compare the difficulty/consistency between that and revenge.

But I think we would need to wait for a repack, which is what we do when a new card is added to the CW. If so, you could just post the decklist you're using and we'll see what it's like.

EDIT: Also, getting back on topic, could we get a rarity rule that is lenient? That is, a rule that allows at least, I don't know, eight rare cards. A single rare card sounds like too little for deck builders, It's just going to be Pauper 2.0. We wouldn't be able to use any of the decks we normally build. Hell, Biovisionary is rare, and he's the dictionary definition of casual.

addict insane wrote:But I think we would need to wait for a repack, which is what we do when a new card is added to the CW. If so, you could just post the decklist you're using and we'll see what it's like.

You don't have to wait for a repack with decks. Having said that, I just played against revenge, and it does actually seem a bit rigged (I still won though). So I guess it must've been that certain cards have a higher chance of being drawn in the harder modes rather than less in the easier modes (relative to probability based on cards in deck).

nivmizzet1 wrote:You don't have to wait for a repack with decks. Having said that, I just played against revenge, and it does actually seem a bit rigged (I still won though). So I guess it must've been that certain cards have a higher chance of being drawn in the harder modes rather than less in the easier modes (relative to probability based on cards in deck).

You're talking about card bias, which is what I thought at first, but here's something else that's interesting and that Riiak mentioned near the end of the thread:

"Some of the matches are randomized in their draws because they are set up as "two player duel" matches, while others are set in what they will draw each turn and are set as "mini duel" with a mini_duel_id which points to an XML structure which contains additional information to load up the game. For example the final fight with Ramaz using D14_URG_BOSS_DECK with Chandra helping uses mini_duel_id 30 which specifies that the game should load saved game encounter_3.XYL, AI Must Attack set to false (0), Turn Limit set to no limit (0), Starting Turn of 0, and Maintain the top 8 cards of the Library.

Since the game is "saved" with the exception of the player's deck (which is not stored allowing the player to choose any deck) it guarantees what will be drawn until a library (other than the player's) is shuffled by a card effect. Things like this can be looked up fairly easily by examining the XML files in the game WADs."

addict insane wrote:

nivmizzet1 wrote:You don't have to wait for a repack with decks. Having said that, I just played against revenge, and it does actually seem a bit rigged (I still won though). So I guess it must've been that certain cards have a higher chance of being drawn in the harder modes rather than less in the easier modes (relative to probability based on cards in deck).

You're talking about card bias, which is what I thought at first, but here's something else that's interesting and that Riiak mentioned near the end of the thread:

"Some of the matches are randomized in their draws because they are set up as "two player duel" matches, while others are set in what they will draw each turn and are set as "mini duel" with a mini_duel_id which points to an XML structure which contains additional information to load up the game. For example the final fight with Ramaz using D14_URG_BOSS_DECK with Chandra helping uses mini_duel_id 30 which specifies that the game should load saved game encounter_3.XYL, AI Must Attack set to false (0), Turn Limit set to no limit (0), Starting Turn of 0, and Maintain the top 8 cards of the Library.

Since the game is "saved" with the exception of the player's deck (which is not stored allowing the player to choose any deck) it guarantees what will be drawn until a library (other than the player's) is shuffled by a card effect. Things like this can be looked up fairly easily by examining the XML files in the game WADs."

yeah, I'm pretty sure that doesn't apply to the revenge decks. And just to make sure, here's the code to prove it.

Code: Select all

<node id="1" core="true" type="two player duel" name_tag="D14_HUMANS" locked_description_tag="CAMPAIGN_NODE_DESCRIPTION_LOCKED_GENERIC" available_description_tag="CAMPAIGN_NODE_DESCRIPTION_AVAILABLE_GENERIC" complete_description_tag="CAMPAIGN_NODE_DESCRIPTION_COMPLETE_GENERIC" x="500" y="150" small_x = "500"  size = "3" plane = "1" >
      <opponent name="PLAYER_NAME_SIGISMUND" deck="D14_REVENGE_HUMANS" planeswalker_desc = "PLANESWALKER_DESC_GARRUK_WILDSPEAKER_1" />
   </node>

Back to decks that I recommend, if you like life gain (or if you just like decks that beat AG) then you might also want to try 'the high life'. The thing about AG is that it hates lifegain because it fizzles out after about 5 turns, and it doesn't do great against good burn because all it's key creatures are burnable, control because control is control (bounce, cancel, exile, etc.), or decks that can win before it. It does best against slow starters and creature-heavy decks (it's actually the reason I used to run creatureless dodge & burn back in the day, when I was playing the vanilla game.) Speaking of which, if you want to test yourself/decks it might be worth broadening your scope; the AI is equally as punishing with mind maze (I actually rate MM as better than AG) and deadwalkers if you want to try them out, but it gives slightly more variation (although they're all some form of aggro).

EDIT: also, I'm not sure why you don't want any green, but if you were willing to splash for a little green then 'She's a Maniac' is an awesome deck, definitely one of my favourites. I just absolutely wrecked revenge avacyn with it too.