The near future of Manalink 2.0 (or 3.0)

[foolosopher]

Gargaroz thanks for the thanks, I wish I had more solid results to show on this and thanks for the GY mod (I am waiting for the masks mod.
Concerning the current dicsussion I had another idea. What about keeping the core of magic (C:/Magic/) folder and adding smaller folders and changing only the paths for each different mod, plus the folders holding the card pics. e.g.
C:/Magic/
core folders/files(PlayFace, SaveGame, *.map, *.pic, manalink etc)
mod-CardArt
mod-CardArtNew (might not be needed)
mod-manalink (magic.exe, cards.dat, manalink.csv and basically most files included in a new patch)

This way with a single installation we can have many different mods at least. We can update the core files once in a while and more frequently the various mods (mostly standard). We can even add a new mod quite easily, I think.
Temporary sollution but at least can give the various blocks, without too much overhead.

[Gargaroz]

Foolosopher, this could be done only via hacking, as the Magic.exe and drawcardlib.dll have the folder names hardcoded in them (very stupid way of doing things, but I guess it was okay at the time).
I haven't the slightest idea of how do it, but perhaps you and gmzombie could do it.

[foolosopher]

If development team agrees to go that way, we can look into this.

[Tattooedoni]

@Gargaroz: I haven't posted here in a long time, but I have kept up with all of your releases, and first want to say thank you. You have done an excellent job, and clearly you want to keep the party going. I appreciate it.

Back to your original Proposal:
I think it is a great idea if creating a third version option is possible. Anyone who loves programing and wants to try breaking the 2000 card limit, or customize their own card availability can feel free. As someone who simply downloads the latest patch and does the best with whats available I really am not interested in that at all. I do love recreating tournament decks as closely as possible and trying them out, but the problem has always been the difference between what is getting coded and what is getting played. You know as well as anyone.

The idea I really like (If you are interested in maintaining 3 versions):
Take the Limited/Custom system we have and add the third option. This is all theoretical to me so any coding/programing issues (Have to keep all the challenges intact) I have no way of knowing it now.

- Limited: Full Sets, Draft and Sealed Only. No Challenges/EDH/Vangaurd/PlaneChase/ETC (Called Variants from now on).

- Eternal Constructed: Vintage Card Pool (with a casual slant/tournament staples) includes Challenges/Variants.

- Modern Constructed: Card pool follows modern rotation (with a competitive slant). No Challenges/Variants.

The way I imagine it, a new set comes out (or there are some cards that aren't coded yet that you want in) and you make code them. Then you have to rotate things in and out of the slots for the existing versions under massive constraints. It would probably be a pain to initially set up the card pools at first for three versions, but then be easier to maintain at rotations because the card pools are very specific.

Truly if its easy enough to have 3 versions, you could have four.
Limited, Eternal Constructed (mix of tournament/casual), Modern Constructed, and Variants Only (Challenges, EDH, Planechase/Archenemy, Vanguard).

I know its easy for me to say since I am not going to be doing any of the coding for that proposal, but I think in the long run it will actually make it easier to maintain the card pools formats that make everyone happy. The 3 or 4 version split allows everyone to play the version they enjoy personally, without constraining the card pool for people who like other versions. At rotation time you just have to look at each version individually and make swaps based on what is relevant for that core of cards.

I like the idea.

[Tattooedoni]

Putting my money where my mouth is I started a little project starting strictly with the.csv files that exist for the most recent ML20 patch and the Deck Editor customization program and CSV to create card bases for new versions. Again, I don't have a clue how this would effect actual programing etc for the game itself, but I am creating a starting point if going that way makes sense. There is a lot I am leaving untouched, and a lot I will explain when I post the finished .csv files here later but basically my thought is:

We have Limited, Constructed, Custom and a switcher today, that keeps the strict limitations to please all of the different types of players who love this project.

When I am done I will have a .csv for:
Limited. (Drafting/Sealed Only)
Eternal. (Eternal Formats Legal Card Pool/No Variants/No Locked Cards)
Modern. (Modern Formats Legal Card Pool/No Variants/No Locked Cards)
Casual. (Eternal Format Card Pool/All Variants)
Custom. (For use with the Deck Editor Tool to create custom versions for player
choice)

This is basically splitting the Constructed version up in to two card pools, and moving the casual aspects to its own version. I am being very careful about card choices based on the goal of the version. I should have them finished up, and posted with some detailed explanations in a few days.

[0rion79]

I like this very much, especially if you can include the GY mod too and if you can refresh the Custom.exe file, since it misses Doran's code and maybe something else.

[Masaaki]

Putting my money where my mouth is I started a little project starting strictly with the.csv files that exist for the most recent ML20 patch and the Deck Editor customization program and CSV to create card bases for new versions. Again, I don't have a clue how this would effect actual programing etc for the game itself, but I am creating a starting point if going that way makes sense. There is a lot I am leaving untouched, and a lot I will explain when I post the finished .csv files here later but basically my thought is:

We have Limited, Constructed, Custom and a switcher today, that keeps the strict limitations to please all of the different types of players who love this project.

When I am done I will have a .csv for:
Limited. (Drafting/Sealed Only)
Eternal. (Eternal Formats Legal Card Pool/No Variants/No Locked Cards)
Modern. (Modern Formats Legal Card Pool/No Variants/No Locked Cards)
Casual. (Eternal Format Card Pool/All Variants)
Custom. (For use with the Deck Editor Tool to create custom versions for player
choice)

This is basically splitting the Constructed version up in to two card pools, and moving the casual aspects to its own version. I am being very careful about card choices based on the goal of the version. I should have them finished up, and posted with some detailed explanations in a few days.

You might want to take a look into the development section:
http://www.slightlymagic.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=5505&start=45
I have uploaded the .csv file for the next release, which covers all cards that are legal in standard. It's not the final version, because we will move some slots, but it might help your project.

[gmzombie]

Gargaroz thanks for the thanks, I wish I had more solid results to show on this and thanks for the GY mod (I am waiting for the masks mod.
Concerning the current dicsussion I had another idea. What about keeping the core of magic (C:/Magic/) folder and adding smaller folders and changing only the paths for each different mod, plus the folders holding the card pics. e.g.
C:/Magic/
core folders/files(PlayFace, SaveGame, *.map, *.pic, manalink etc)
mod-CardArt
mod-CardArtNew (might not be needed)
mod-manalink (magic.exe, cards.dat, manalink.csv and basically most files included in a new patch)

This way with a single installation we can have many different mods at least. We can update the core files once in a while and more frequently the various mods (mostly standard). We can even add a new mod quite easily, I think.
Temporary sollution but at least can give the various blocks, without too much overhead.

since i havent been on here to much lately ive missed this. what you want is to be able to have 1 magic.exe to run different mods? or does this matter how many magic.exes there are as long as they are in the same c:\magic folder and then from there ex. c:\magic\gymod\magic.exe? is this how you would want it? you couldnt use the same cardartnew folder because of the different images for each mods but im sure you already knew this. getting the switcher option much like what is in the current edition to switch from constructed,limited, and custom is something that jatill did i believe but it shouldnt be to hard to decode. actually Jatill if your reading this how did you do it? we could then add in as many as needed.

[foolosopher]

actually many magic.exes to run the various mods, or the 2nd option that you mention.
The images need to be in different folders e.g. CardArtMod1, CardArtMod2. The magic.exes, csvs, dat must probably be in different folders per mod also.
We will probably have to edit binaries to change some paths.

[Tattooedoni]

Okay, so I finished my little project. I had hoped to include updated card art too to make it an easier transition if its picked up, but it took long enough to hand edit the CSV files that I am saving that for another time.

Disclaimer: I am not a programmer, and I do not know if what I did breaks anything in the existing program. I don't even know if what I am proposing can be done, is too hard to do, or is some type of development nightmare. My plan was all based on my understanding of the different versions of ManaLink Available right now through switching (in game or with the switcher). In my mind its just an expansion to that system. I do not know what it takes to disable the various variant versions currently hard coded into the game, or unlock all the challenge cards.


What I actually did: I took the CSVs for the constructed and limited versions of the latest patch v4. I did nothing to the limited version, Gargaroz and crew have a plan for it that I totally agree with. I left the constructed version alone too, to me that is the new casual version. I did copy the constructed CSV and updated them by hand to create two new ones Constructed Eternal and Constructed Modern. I removed all cards not legal in modern, and all the slots that were avatars, or special variant games, or horrible but required for the challenges. I then hand added already coded cards from other versions I thought would be good inclusions.

Whats in the .zip attached is the four new CSVs, and a text list of cards I hope get coded one day (Greedy!).

The goal:
A)To make room in the 2000 cards available for new cards to be coded and easily updated. To make rotations easier when patches are released.
B)To separate the different "types" of experience, so users could decide which they wanted to pursue without carrying the baggage caused by the variants.

The vision:
Currently you can use the switcher to load one of 3 distinct versions Limited, Constructed, and Custom. Each gives you a slightly different experience. My idea was to expand the switcher, and customize the versions to very experinece specific. In the end you would be able to switch between 5 versions.

1. Limited - This would be strictly for drafting and sealed deck. There are some very cool plans in development for this to bring it up to date, but it would cut all the chaff like the Variant Versions and their required slots. No challenges, no locked challenge cards.

2. Casual - This would cover all of the different variant editions, challenges, and cards that poeple love to play casually, but take up slots more valuable to other types of users. All the cards and code necessary for EDH, Archenemy, Planechase, Momir, Vanguard, SPAT, and the Challenges are here.

3. Constructed Modern - This would be strictly for creating constructed decks using the modern card pool. It is geared more towards competitive play, but there are plenty of causal options. There would be no variants, or cards taking up slots because there are necessary to support variants. No challenges and the cards necessary to support them (freaking Kobolds), any challenge prize cards start unlocked. If you miss things like your wall deck or your Kobold deck you can use them in the casual version. A lot of slots are freed up in the version just because there are plenty of cards that are not modern legal.

4. Constructed Eternal - The same concept as above in every way but including the eternal legal card pool (includes commander cards). These are chosen to represent more competitive decks and historical decks, but includes casual cards as well. Again if there is something missing from this version that you like (walls, kobolds, sleight of mind effects) you can find it in Casual, or by using Deck Editor to make your own version.

5. Custom - The card pools you create on your own using Deck Editor or My2000. Either way you are getting the card pool of your wildest fantasies.

So there is an explanation of my response, concept, whatever,to Gargaroz's original post. I think this is a good way to give everyone the experience they want with no baggage, keeps the card pools a little looser for new released cards, and unchains constructed magic from casual magic which really are two totally different things.

So that's my idea and my kernel to get it started if people who develop want to pick it up and run with it.

[0rion79]

Pals, this project looks awesome: can't wait to see it completed!

Just a couple of questions:
1 - there is a bunch of cards that has been "lost" during the splitting from Constructed to Limited, years ago. It would be nice to see them back again, since they are still coded but no longer included into any CSV file. They are playable cards that are nothing extraordinary but enjoyable in some specific case: Algae Gharial, Abbey Gargoyles, Darkslick Drake, Yavimaya Dryad and something more. If you want, I may post here my CSV file so that you may take a look, since it is very old.

2 - before releasing this whole project, what about checking all cards, including text format and creature type? EG. there are many creatures with hexproof that don't use that keyword but the whole ability's description.

3 - shall we get rid of 8th edition? It has been a so nice set but it also host some big junk that doesn't have any reason to exist, not even in sealed deck. I would be much happier to have its slot reserved for Zendikar block and 8th edition's cards placed back in their original 1st-print sets (eg. Hammer of Bogardan back in Mirage block).

4 - do you think that it is possible to edit the original Deck Build as Mok did? He was skilled enough to add the button for 8th edition so I wonder if we can do it again. Also, it would be great if we could add some more sub-menus: as we can right-click on Unlimited set to access to revised, 4th and 5th edition, I would like to do the same with other buttons. Since space is few, I would like to propose you the same solution that I've used with my Custom version: regrouping cards into blocks really helped me to quickly browse among them, improved sealed decks and was of aid while recreating old tournment decks.

5 - Is it possible to code a deck-converter utility? It should simply open the decks in text format, seek the cards' ID and update it accordingly with the most recent Manalink.dat file(s). This would help importing decks from Limited and Custom versions into the new incoming Constructed.

6 - Just to know, how are you listing cards in the first CSV file from 0 to 1999? Since you are going to re-include all cards, it would be a deal to use their original slot in order to prevent conflicts with Ante & hard-coded slots.

7 - since this escamotage of splitting cards among several CSV files looks great, is there any hope to get back indipendent tokens?

[Sonic]

OK, just before we get ahead of ourselves, lets think about this proposed project realistically.

Has anyone actually considered the amount of work and time involved in coding and regularly maintaining the files and artwork folders of 'five' separate versions of the game concurrently?

[Gargaroz]

Not to be harsh, but I want to state this clear : I'm more to willing to mantain Costructed - New Limited and Golden Years, but I won't do anything more. If you really want to do this kind of splitting, someone else have to do the editing of Magic.exe by himself : it's a long, boring job and there's no utility besides the editor to do it.
As for the coding, my main priority is finishing New Limited. After that, I hope I could find enough motivation to start my "Time Warp" mod again. But you could still ask for specific cards, normally it's no big deal.
Doesn't misunderstand me : it's a cool idea, but as Sonic said, it would be an hell of data-entry work and maintainance to do. If someone else will volounteer, I'll wrote a small guide to Magic.exe editing, as Orion did for CSV.

[gmzombie]

4 - do you think that it is possible to edit the original Deck Build as Mok did? He was skilled enough to add the button for 8th edition so I wonder if we can do it again. Also, it would be great if we could add some more sub-menus: as we can right-click on Unlimited set to access to revised, 4th and 5th edition, I would like to do the same with other buttons.

i think right now the only person that could add buttons would be snacko as he is versed in asm. Snacko and Fools have put in alot of effort to recode cardartlib.dll and are doing well right now. my only hope is that deckdll is recoded next and hopefully a source will be with it so we can add in more buttons and such.

[0rion79]

Not to be harsh, but I want to state this clear : I'm more to willing to mantain Costructed - New Limited and Golden Years, but I won't do anything more. If you really want to do this kind of splitting, someone else have to do the editing of Magic.exe by himself : it's a long, boring job and there's no utility besides the editor to do it.

Gargaroz, if it is really possible to have Magic.exe run several CSV files at once and so to have all coded cards in a single game, I think that we can do the job *IF* we split it into several workgroups. You just have to tell us if this can be done.
I've also pushed Aww1979 a little to ask about his bro, but there are no news yet...