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General Rule Questions

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General Rule Questions

Postby Salbei » 19 Feb 2011, 07:39

Index

If you are unsure about a possible bug or simply got general rule questions please post those things here.

Example:
I was just about post a Bug Report regarding Phytohydra getting blocked by a Phyrexian Vatmother (got infest). My intuition told me that the Phytohydra should die, but it did not and got +1/+1 counters instead.

-> turns out the game did the correct interaction and this was not a bug and should have been handled exactly like this!
why? | Open
Phytohydra's ability replaces damage. Infect changes the result of damage. Phytohydra's ability will replace infect damage in the same way that it replaces any other damage, and it will get +1/+1 counters. The damage doesn't have the chance to put -1/-1 counters on Phytohydra since it's never actually dealt.


Sometimes weird situations like this one happen in this game and there are so many interactions going on that you sometimes loose the overview.

THIS IS NO REPLACEMENT FOR THE BUG REPORT FORUM !
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Re: General Rule Questions

Postby aww1979 » 19 Feb 2011, 09:32

Oh, I have one I just encountered about 5 minutes ago, and was thinking of posting about :p Guess this is a good place for it.

If a creature with lifelink damages a planeswalker, should the creature's controller gain life? Currently the engine does not give life for that.
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Re: General Rule Questions

Postby Salbei » 19 Feb 2011, 10:14

Had to google a bit for this one. I am not sure about this myself.
Here is what i found:
related | Open


Damage is still done, thus lifelink still works. When damaging a planeswalker damage is done in terms of removing loyalty counters as you said, but it is damage that causes the loss of these counters.
Yes, they gain life. Removing loyalty from a planeswalker is the result of damage, but the damage is still dealt. Just like a player losing life is the result of damage dealt to them.
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Re: General Rule Questions

Postby Salbei » 01 Mar 2011, 20:02

Here is something i "frequently" encounter and am not exactly sure what is supposed to happen.

I gain control of an opponents Creature (in my case via Keiga, the Tide Star, should not matter).
This is quite complex and i tried to cover a lot "whacky" scenarios.

What happens if that "stolen" Creature ... :
    a) ...got "champion a XYZ". Do i have to Champion another Creature ? What happens if it dies under my control ? (Wren's Run Packmaster)
    b) ...got Echo, do i have to pay for it ? (Goblin War Buggy)
    c) ...got any "enters the Battlefield" effects / things like "Kicker" or "Cascade"? Do they trigger again ? (Balduvian Horde)
    d) ...got any "is put into the Graveyard" effects ? The "stolen" Creature dies under my control - what happens ?(Yavimaya Elder)
    e) ...got any leaves play effects ? Does that trigger for the opponent when i steal the card ? Does it trigger for me or my opponent when it leaves play under MY control ? (Faceless Butcher)
    f) ... is enchanted ? Does the Creature keep the Aura (my opponent controls) ? (Rancor) ?
    g) ... got an equipment on it? Does my stolen creature still maintain the Equipped effect of the opponents Equipment? (Bonesplitter)
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Re: General Rule Questions

Postby Salbei » 01 Mar 2011, 20:19

Found on the net:

a) | Open
502.72. Champion
    502.72a Champion represents two triggered abilities. "Champion an [object]" means "When this permanent comes into play, sacrifice it unless you remove another [object] you control from the game" and "When this permanent leaves play, return the removed card to play under its owner's control."
    502.72b The two abilities represented by champion are linked abilities as defined by rule 217.7d.
    502.72c A permanent is "championed" by another permanent if the latter removes the former from the game as a result of a champion ability.

(found @ http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Champion
This covers the "leaves play" part of the initial question. When the Champion Creature leaves play it releases the "championed" Creature to the owners control.
This is currently NOT the case in Manalink!
Since the creature does NOT come into play you do not have to champion another creature.This is correctly implemented.


b) | Open
502.19a Echo is a triggered ability. “Echo [cost]” means “At the beginning of your upkeep, if this permanent came under your control since the beginning of your last upkeep, sacrifice it unless you pay [cost].
(found @ http://mtg.wikia.com/wiki/Echo)
So when i "steal" the card i would have to pay Echo for it, even when the original owner had already paid for it.
Did i understand this right ?


c) | Open
If a permanent has a targeted "enters the battlefield" ability that triggers if it was kicked, the target isn't chosen until the permanent enters the battlefield and the ability triggers (as opposed to when that permanent was cast). That means that sometimes you may wind up targeting something you don't want to. For example, say you cast a kicked Heartstabber Mosquito, which has the ability "When Heartstabber Mosquito enters the battlefield, if it was kicked, destroy target creature." In response to the Heartstabber Mosquito spell, your opponent sacrifices his or her only creature. When the Mosquito enters the battlefield, its ability triggers, and you must choose a target for it. If no one else controls any creatures, you must target one of your own -- possibly Heartstabber Mosquito itself.

(found @ http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Kicker)
If i understand it, then the card already entered the Battlefield and does not trigger the effect when the "control" changes.This should be correct in Manalink.
To trigger "Cascade" the card needs to be played from your hand - this should not trigger when you steal or revive a creature. In Manalink Cascade somehow triggers when you revive a Creature - that should NOT happen.


d)+e) | Open
410.10c Leaves-play abilities trigger when a permanent leaves the in-play zone. These are written as, but aren’t limited to, “When [this object] leaves play, . . .” or “Whenever [something] is put into a graveyard from play, . . . .” An ability that attempts to do something to the card that left play checks for it only in the first zone that it went to. (found @ http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Tr ... ility)
217.4a A graveyard is a discard pile. Any object that’s countered, discarded, destroyed, or sacrificed is put on top of its owner’s graveyard, as is any instant or sorcery spell that’s finished resolving. Each player’s graveyard starts out empty. (found @ http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Graveyard)
Now THIS is confusing. As far as i understand the card is going to the OWNERS (the actual card owner,right?) graveyard and triggers anything for the OWNER.
Otherwise it should be "controller" (or something like that) of the card if i got that right. I might be COMPLETELY off in that one.So please confirm.


f)+g) | Open
You take control of a creature, but Auras enchanting and Equipment attached to the creature do not change controller.
(found @ http://magiccards.info/query?q=control+ ... cname)
That is very clear and should cover both.
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Re: General Rule Questions

Postby aww1979 » 01 Mar 2011, 20:58

My understanding for these would be:

a) I've never come across this one, but then I don't own any cards with the champion an X ability, and I think only one exists in manalink right now. Can't argue with the comprehensive rules, though.

b) I would have thought that unless you stole it before the owner had a chance to pay echo, that echo would not need to be paid for, but that wiki site says you'd have to pay for it again.

c) Definitely not.
d) You'd do whatever death triggers it had, unless it said something like 'when it is put into YOUR graveyard', since it is being put into opponent's graveyard instead.

e) Definitely not for the first part; it's not leaving play. For the second part, you'd control whatever effects occur for leaving play if the creature leaves play.

f) The enchantments stay on the creature (or whatever permanent you steal) but are controlled by the opponent. Thus, if you steal a creature with a Firebreathing enchantment, only your opponent can pump it, but if you steal a creature with Flight, the creature still flies, even though your opponent still controls Flight.

g) Not 100% sure since I don't own any equipment cards IRL either, but I think that the equipment stays equipped on the creature even if you steal it. However, your opponent is likely to equip it to something else ASAP if they can, and of course you wouldn't control the equipment, so no using Jitte counters. (though if the stolen creature dealt damage, your opponent would get jitte counters on it :p)
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Re: General Rule Questions

Postby Salbei » 01 Mar 2011, 21:26

This is pretty much as complex as magic can get.
I´d like to point this Bug out:
When the Champion Creature leaves play it releases the "championed" Creature to the owners control.
This is currently NOT the case in Manalink!
Happened to me yesterday. I stole a champion creature and after it died i got the "championed" creature beneath it instead of my opponent.Forgot to create a savegame. Still have to report that one ...
---

Just to prevent misunderstandings - you do NOT steal the Equipment when you steal a Creature that is "equipped" with it.

212.2k An Equipment's controller is separate from the equipped creature's controller; the two need not be the same. Changing control of the creature doesn't change control of the Equipment, and vice versa. Only the Equipment's controller can play its abilities. However, if the Equipment adds an ability to the equipped creature (with "gains" or "has'), the equipped creature's controller is the only one who can play that ability. (found @ http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Equipment)
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Re: General Rule Questions

Postby monopoman » 29 Feb 2012, 22:36

When a creature is taken via something like Control Magic all it is doing is switching who controls it.

It does not leave play and then reenter play that would be something like Momentary Blink targeting the creature.

The game is playing control magic effects for the most part perfectly.
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Re: General Rule Questions

Postby BAgate » 26 Mar 2014, 10:21

Time to resurrect the thread.

If you have 2 cards that affect maximumhand size they are to be applied in time stamp order (Library of Leng ruling). But how does that apply to Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur and Library of Leng? If the Library is in play first there is no maximum hand size, so what effect does reducing maximum hand size by 7 have?
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Re: General Rule Questions

Postby Korath » 26 Mar 2014, 10:50

Consensus of google (e.g. 1, 2) says there's no maximum hand size no matter which has the earlier timestamp.
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Re: General Rule Questions

Postby BAgate » 09 May 2016, 06:42

This thread doesn't get used enough, so...

If an ability says tap target permanent, can you target a tapped permanent? I ask since I was looking for something else and found rule 701.17, a and b of which say you can only tap an untapped card and untap a tapped one. So can you target something that won't be affected? i.e. for Ral Zarek 's 1st ability can you 'burn' one of the effects on something that won't be affected?
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Re: General Rule Questions

Postby Korath » 09 May 2016, 10:37

Yes. Whether the permanent is tapped or not isn't part of the targeting requirements unless it's worded like Royal Assassin or Backlash, so it isn't checked during announcement. See the rulings for Icy Manipulator, for example. The permanent won't "become tapped" for the purposes of triggers like Psychic Venom's, though; and you can't pay a {T} cost by tapping a tapped permanent (107.5, and templating on cards like Heritage Druid that tap cards besides themselves as a cost).
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Re: General Rule Questions

Postby Korath » 21 Nov 2016, 23:20

So I've got a Karoo Meerkat and a Kelsinko Ranger on the battlefield, and activate the ranger targeting the meerkat. If I respond by casting Sleight of Mind to change the meerkat's protection from blue to protection from white, or Thoughtlace targeting the meerkat so it's no longer a green creature being targeted, the ranger's ability fails to validate the target during resolution and the ability is correctly countered. (That's the bug that was reported and fixed here.)

I'm currently, however, finding conflicting answers to what happens if I either
  1. Thoughtlace the ranger, or
  2. Sleight of Mind the ranger from "target green creature" to "target white creature", or
  3. just change the ranger into an Air Elemental or whatever with Mirrorweave or similar (so that it's both blue as in A, and no longer has the offending rules text in its ability as in B)
while the ranger's ability is already on the stack.

Is there a judge in the house?
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Re: General Rule Questions

Postby Draggamor » 22 Nov 2016, 12:38

Your thoughts are correct on points B and C.

Thoughtlace is blue, so, it can't target Karoo Meerkat.
On the points B and C the ability gets countered.
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Re: General Rule Questions

Postby Korath » 22 Nov 2016, 16:16

Re Thoughtlacing the Meerkat, yes, brainfart - but that example's just as easily substituted with a Deathlace or such, anything so that it's no longer green at resolution.

But for B and C, a rules citation, please? If the ability on the stack really tracks changes to its source like that, it would then follow that if I put the Ranger's ability on the stack, Mirrorweave'd the Ranger to a Sengir Vampire, and then Sleight of Mind'ed the Vampire from green to white, it would still change the text of the ability even though it's not on the object the Sleight is actually targeting. And that can't possibly make sense.
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