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General Rule Questions

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Re: General Rule Questions

Postby drool66 » 22 Nov 2016, 18:13

In "A" you're referencing Thoughtlacing the Kelsinko Ranger (not Karoo Meerkat) so that now Karoo Meerkat has protection from the Ranger. This is covered by 608.2b under resolving spells & abilities - abilities check if their targets are legal on resolution. Since part of Pro:Blue is "this permanent cannot be the target of blue spells or effects from blue sources," the ability is countered.

I think this is what you're getting at in "C" also; if the Ranger became an Air Elemental, Karoo Meerkat would have protection from the ability since on resolution, its source is a blue creature. (although in the specific case of Mirrorweave, the Meerkat would also be an Air Elemental, and would lose Pro:Blue, but I don't think that's what you're trying to get at)

"B" is tricky, but I think it is the same as changing the text of a spell. 602.2a reads in part:

"[An activated ability] is created on the stack as an object that’s not a card... It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics."

and 602.2b reads

" The remainder of the process for activating an ability is identical to the process for casting a spell listed in rules 601.2b–i. Those rules apply to activating an ability just as they apply to casting a spell"

The relevant part of 601.2 is:

601.2i "Once the steps described in 601.2a–h are completed, effects that modify the characteristics of the spell as it’s cast are applied, then the spell becomes cast"

Furthermore, the ruling for Sleight of Mind is:

"Changing the text of a spell... will (probably) cause it to be countered since the targets will be illegal."

So changing the text of the activated ability is probably the same as changing the text of a spell, and therefore will cause the target to be illegal and the ability to be countered.
Not 100% on that one, but those are all the rules I could find that apply. I suspect even most judges would have a hard time with that one.


EDIT: I've been thinking about that last one, and now I think I'm wrong above - I bet there's no way to change the text of an activated ability once it's on the stack since it's not a spell.

EDIT 2: Checked it out at the Magic Rules chat and they are saying "Changing the text of the Ranger won't do anything to the ability that's on the stack. The ability will still resolve targeting the Meerkat (although you won't be able to activate it in the future targeting the Meerkat)."

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Re: General Rule Questions

Postby Korath » 27 Jul 2017, 02:31

Just saw your edits above. Edit 2 was how I thought it should work from reading the comp rules; I'd seen a ruling on I think Gatherer that implied your first interpretation.

Academic question/nightmare fuel, since the way Manalink implements Sleight of Mind and Magical Hack effects can't support non-permanent changes:
  1. I've got a Kelsinko Ranger on the bf.
  2. I cast a Whim of Volrath or Crystal Spray or Swirl the Mists to change "green" to "blue". The Ranger can now target only blue creatures.
  3. I cast a Sleight of Mind on the Ranger to change "blue" to "black". The ranger can now target only black creatures. OK.
  4. The effect from step 2 goes away: end of turn comes around for the first two, or I Disenchant the Swirl the Mists.
What color creature can the Ranger target? If "green", what if I'd cast another Sleight of Mind to change "green" to "red" in between steps 3 and 4, while it had the text "target black creature" and green didn't appear anywhere in its rules text?

---

Also, and the reason I clicked on this topic again in the first place, a second opinion please:
Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker's oracle text currently reads "Whenever a creature with power 1 or less is put into your graveyard from the battlefield, you may return that card to the battlefield at the beginning of the next end step if Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker is still on the battlefield."
There's two triggers here: an immediate trigger when a low-power creature you own dies, which at resolution creates a delayed trigger that in turn resolves at the start of the next end step. During the resolution of which of those triggers does their controller decide whether to return the card to the bf?
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Re: General Rule Questions

Postby drool66 » 27 Jul 2017, 17:36

Academic question/nightmare fuel, since the way Manalink implements Sleight of Mind and Magical Hack effects can't support non-permanent changes:
I've got a Kelsinko Ranger on the bf.
I cast a Whim of Volrath or Crystal Spray or Swirl the Mists to change "green" to "blue". The Ranger can now target only blue creatures.
I cast a Sleight of Mind on the Ranger to change "blue" to "black". The ranger can now target only black creatures. OK.
The effect from step 2 goes away: end of turn comes around for the first two, or I Disenchant the Swirl the Mists.
What color creature can the Ranger target? If "green", what if I'd cast another Sleight of Mind to change "green" to "red" in between steps 3 and 4, while it had the text "target black creature" and green didn't appear anywhere in its rules text?
Relevant rules:

Code: Select all
613.7. Within a layer or sublayer, determining which order effects are applied in is sometimes done using a dependency system. If a dependency exists, it will override the timestamp system.

613.7a An effect is said to “depend on” another if (a) it’s applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect (see rules 613.1 and 613.3); (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.

613.7b An effect dependent on one or more other effects waits to apply until just after all of those effects have been applied. If multiple dependent effects would apply simultaneously in this way, they’re applied in timestamp order relative to each other. If several dependent effects form a dependency loop, then this rule is ignored and the effects in the dependency loop are applied in timestamp order.

613.7c After each effect is applied, the order of remaining effects is reevaluated and may change if an effect that has not yet been applied becomes dependent on or independent of one or more other effects that have not yet been applied.

613.8. One continuous effect can override another. Sometimes the results of one effect determine whether another effect applies or what another effect does.
Example: Two effects are affecting the same creature: one from an Aura that says “Enchanted creature gains flying” and one from an Aura that says “Enchanted creature loses flying.” Neither of these depends on the other, since nothing changes what they affect or what they’re doing to it. Applying them in timestamp order means the one that was generated last “wins.” The same process would be followed, and the same result reached, if either of the effects had a duration (such as “Target creature loses flying until end of turn”) or came from a non-Aura source (such as “All creatures lose flying”).
Example: One effect reads, “White creatures get +1/+1,” and another reads, “Enchanted creature is white.” The enchanted creature gets +1/+1 from the first effect, regardless of its previous color.
Since they're continuous effects, they keep trying to apply, but they may do nothing. When the hack in your step 2 goes away, Kelsinko ranger returns to targeting green creatures as a state based action, with Sleight of Mind trying to change "blue" to "black," but seeing no "blue," so it's just waiting for a "blue" to show up.
In your alternate scenario, the second Sleight of mind is initially waiting for "green" to show up and seeing nothing. Once the hack from step 2 goes away, it sees "green" and changes it to "red." Kelsinko Ranger therefore targets red creatures.

What is also interesting is if you, say:
1. Sleighted "green" to "blue"
2. Sleighted "black" to "white"
3. Sleighted "blue" to "black"
in that order. Kelsinko Ranger would target black creatures, not white, since the effects are dependent on each other, and they therefore apply in timestamp order. This scenario might happen if, say you disenchanted a "blue" -> "black" Swirl the Mists that was cast between steps 1 & 2.

Now say you had the above, but then sleighted "black" to "green." Since they now form a loop, you ignore the loop and apply them only in timestamp order, so Kelsinko Ranger targets green creatures.

If you Sleighted like this:
1. Green to red
2. Green to black
Kelsinko would target red creatures, for the same reasons above.

---
Like you said, Shirei's ability itself is a triggered ability, that creates a delayed trigger whenever a qualifying creature dies. The delayed trigger says "you may return this card to the battlefield at the beginning of the next end step if Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker is still on the battlefield." and then rule 603.5 applies:
Code: Select all
603.5. Some triggered abilities’ effects are optional (they contain “may,” as in “At the beginning of your upkeep, you may draw a card”). These abilities go on the stack when they trigger, regardless of whether their controller intends to exercise the ability’s option or not. The choice is made when the ability resolves. Likewise, triggered abilities that have an effect “unless” something is true or a player chooses to do something will go on the stack normally; the “unless” part of the ability is dealt with when the ability resolves.
So the secondary/delayed trigger is put on the stack at the beginning of the next end step regardless of whether or not the player intends to bring the creature back (and I think, technically, even whether or not Shirei is still on the battlefield - it just can't do anything in this case because of its if clause), and then the choice is made.
Note that if Shirei is blinked, creatures that die before that happens can't be resurrected since Shirei comes back as a new card.
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