Please Read: Keeping Things Organized!

[Bog Wraith]

I'm pretty sure that the abandonware version has both Duels of the Planeswalkers & Spells of the Ancients in the zip file, but as I say I haven't installed that version for years so I'm not certain.

It does. It has all official updates.

OK, thanks for confirming that!

[franjoal]

¿Will you create a manalink that includes all the new cards as the manalink 2.0.1?

[jatill]

Is it me, or did all the moderators' names get colorized recently? Boy is that distracting!

[franjoal]

I am sorry, it(he,she) is that not if it(he,she) is here or in another forum but if you know the response I would help myself very much

[Huggybaby]

¿Will you create a manalink that includes all the new cards as the manalink 2.0.1?

Maybe you mean an updated Shandalar? I don't know, nobody seems to know whats going on. We're suffering from chaos right now. We have a lot of people contributing to the project what they want, when they want, to the point that they're breaking preexisting code. In fact this project doesn't need more cards right now but that's what it's getting.

Yes, Bog Wraith and I have had a rank change and a color change because I didn't think my previous subtle approach was working, so I'm glad you noticed. I toned down mine as it is, you should have seen it when it was truly bright red.

[jatill]

I don't know, nobody seems to know whats going on. We're suffering from chaos right now. We have a lot of people contributing to the project what they want, when they want, to the point that they're breaking preexisting code. In fact this project doesn't need more cards right now but that's what it's getting.

That's kind of harsh. I think what the project needs is whatever people are willing to contribute.

[Huggybaby]

It's an accurate description. Tell me how a new user (someone who only wants to play the game) comes here and gets any update besides 2.01? I think the project needs what best serves the end user experience, not what best serves a contributor's ego. If no new users enjoy playing the game, then the purpose of having a game in the first place has been ignored.

[Bog Wraith]

jatill, no one appreciates more then me what you guys are doing. You know that for a fact.

The problem is exactly as Huggy points out. New users or users that don't participate,'Lurkers' which are the majority of people at any forum, are completely lost as to where begin to know how & where to get all the updates necessary and the accompanying art work for them. Do you know how many PM's I get from these folks asking these very questions? This is precisely the issue I have posted not once, but twice about asking you programmers to get together and A) figure out a leadership team or what constitutes a new update, and B) organizing things into easily found areas so anyone, especially the new user or "lurker" can find, get & understand what & how to install all the great content you guys keep coming out with!

Almost none of you guys have responded to any of this!

I fail to understand why this isn't understood. Look it, what good is all the work that huggy & I are doing behind the scenes that few of you know about if we can't at least communicate to you how important all this is? I'll repeat what I said in a PM to some one else here just today:

None of us gets paid to do this, being a Mod is pretty much a thankless job. That's fine, I'm not doing this for a pat on the back. I do this because I Love this game and I am so grateful to you incredibly talented people that have broken the code lock that was here after Mok left. This is the best way for me to do my share to pitch in to this project because I don't have the knowledge to code.

I spend an inordinate amount of my free time on this project. Just doing my mod duties is very time consuming. On top of that, I do some of the art work from within Photoshop for the new cards. I am in the process of discussing with a person or 2 helping me go through each and every card art jpeg and replace the inferior images with ones from the unbelievable HQ scans available right here at CCGHQ, courteous of Huggy and his AWESOME HQ Imaging team. I hope to do this during the Summer months.

On top of that, I am re-learning Flash, which I have version 6 of and haven't used in 8 years, as I want to rebuild the interactive portion of the original MicroProse tutorials that Hip63 so graciously and time consumingly did for us in the other project some of us are working on which is the all in one CD install testing and bug reports!

So yes, we all appreciate the effort, passion and time you guys are putting into this. Just realize there is allot more going on in the background then you might know!

Bottom line, this place is better organized and has better resources both digital and in human terms than any thing even close to what the old forum did. All this after a mere 4 weeks since the old place went Kablamm!

It's a work in progress. Sometimes we're gonna get on each others nerves. It happens even when friends mean well and try to do things together. I believe in this team and in what were all doing. ManaLink has NEVER been in better hands then it is now with ALL of us .

I'm so damn proud of all you guys and this place.!

Just work with us and try to see where we're coming from!

[Incantus]

It's an accurate description. Tell me how a new user (someone who only wants to play the game) comes here and gets any update besides 2.01? I think the project needs what best serves the end user experience, not what best serves a contributor's ego. If no new users enjoy playing the game, then the purpose of having a game in the first place has been ignored.

I think you're missing the point a bit. Since people are doing this in their free time, they will contribute to whatever interests them most (and for most people, that is making their favorite sets of cards). For example, in my project, I don't care so much about having lots of implemented cards, but more so having a kickass base engine that makes it easy for anybody to implement a valid card (and be easily extensible every time a new expansion comes out and they decide to change the comprehensive rules a bit). But most of the people helping me care more about having lots of cards. And, it may seems a bit counterintuitive, but I'm not too concerned if nobody else uses my program - it's more a learning experience for me. Everyone here appreciates what you guys are doing with these forums, but if no one is interested in stepping up to organize everything for a particular program, then unfortunately no cajoling is going to change that.

[Bog Wraith]

I appreciate your point of view, but folks have shown an interest in keeping things organized. You should have seen the old forum we came from. This place is much more organized then the old place was, and it's not from my doing alone by any stretch.
There have been excellent examples of doing things the right way here by many people here!

It is this one main area that seems to be a sticking point.

And I'm sorry but I don't agree, cajoling is part of what it means to be a mod. I know, I've been one in a few places covering different subject matter for years now. Just because you meet resistance or misunderstandings doesn't mean you give up trying to do these things. Please try and remember that we are serving EVERYONE who comes here, not just the active member who posts and also participates in any development of the app he is interested in. That is a very small representation of the total membership. That is the side of this point that you folks that don't deal with all the PM's from members who are confused and lost as to where to even begin, don't seem to understand or appreciate!

I have seen the results of sticking with a point many times in the past, already here as well in the short time since we moved here. So, we keep going and we keep trying to communicate with everyone. That is what we do!

[Incantus]

OK, I stand corrected. I've never had to maintain a forum, and this is probably the first one I've really participated in (except for programming mailing lists).

Anyway, thanks again for all the work you and Huggybaby put into modeerating/maintaining this place! It's definitely been a nice place to aggregate all the magic programs that seem to be popping up.

[Bog Wraith]

Thanks for all you do with your program.

And thank you for your above comment, it is very much appreciated!

[Huggybaby]

I'm using quotes from incantus to help me clarify my position, it's nothing personal I assure him and you.

Since people are doing this in their free time, they will contribute to whatever interests them most (and for most people, that is making their favorite sets of cards)...But most of the people helping me care more about having lots of cards.

Oh yes, I know this all too well, and it's the same in the MTG Forge forum, so that's three forums here where most energy is expended toward card creation, everything else be damned. That is certainly the prerogative of those involved. I haven't told anybody to quit doing what they're doing, and I haven't told anybody to do anything different than what they're doing, and I haven't said that card creation is any more or less important than any other part of the process.

There are three parts to this equation. The developer, the contributors, and the end user. I am an end user. I'm partial to end users and noobs. I can't stand forums that have become incestuous and insular, and I won't stand for that happening here. So when I see new people come here and ask questions only to be ignored, it bothers me a great deal. I didn't start the HQ Team or the HQ Pics project so that I could keep the best collection of pics around to myself, I did it to share, and on the back of that MWSData and then this forum were built. And that collection of pics has been shared hundreds of thousands of times. Nobody here has done anything that can compare to that.

Without the end user then everything else is, pardon the expression, a lot of masturbatory self-interest. Great, X number of guys coded X number of cards. If someone really cares about what they're doing then they will want to proudly share it with others, and they'll do it so others can enjoy it, not so everyone can see how clever they are. It's neurotic not to want to share something you're proud of, to want to keep it to yourself.

...if no one is interested in stepping up to organize everything for a particular program, then unfortunately no cajoling is going to change that.

You're exactly right about that! I'm not cajoling, I'm not begging, and I'm not apologizing or patting anyone on the back either. We've done enough of that. All I said was that these projects would be a lot better if only the tiniest bit of organization were implemented. Bog Wraith and I could set up the best organizational structure in the world, but we wouldn't be able to make anybody follow it. I didn't call anybody out or point any fingers, not because I knew it would do no good, but because I honestly find no blame to assign. So, if anyone is offended then they have no right to be and they should figure out why. As far as I'm concerned the hit dog hollers, but it's not me wielding the stick.

I know for a fact that even some of the coders are frustrated with the way things are, it's no secret, it's been posted. What needs to be changed is clear. So we asked for someone to come up with a plan and we're still waiting to hear some ideas, since ours don't seem to be good enough. We can't lead and we're waiting to follow.

[jatill]

I really don't understand what the issue is, so maybe you can try to explain it once more. If people can't find the most recent update, why doesn't the mod make the very top thread (in the announcements section I guess) just be a link to the latest stable version? Isn't that the first place people look? I don't really care how you define latest version, and neither do the lurkers you're talking about. Anything less than a couple weeks old is going to be huge for them.

The thing that really irks me about Huggy's post if the tone. I understand that these things are not best conveyed in writing, but from reading what he wrote today, I was insulted. It implied that we are doing this just for our own egos and as a community are in chaos. How demeaning, and by the way, wrong. I can tell that BW definately has the best of intentions and wants things to work. That's why I'm receptive to his suggestions, and I'm now more likely to ignore anything from Huggy.

Huggy-
I just do not understand where you're coming from when you say that we are just coding this for ourselves. What coder in the world doesn't want his work used by the largest number of people. I really think you should reconsider your stance on that issue.

[Incantus]

Without the end user then everything else is, pardon the expression, a lot of masturbatory self-interest. Great, X number of guys coded X number of cards. If someone really cares about what they're doing then they will want to proudly share it with others, and they'll do it so others can enjoy it, not so everyone can see how clever they are. It's neurotic not to want to share something you're proud of, to want to keep it to yourself.

I strongly disagree. Not everything is done with the intention of satisfying the most people. A lot of open source code is created to "scratch an itch" (and then the developer realizes that other people might find use out of it). Sharing (and getting appreciation) is fun, but for me it's definitely not the primary motivation.

I just do not understand where you're coming from when you say that we are just coding this for ourselves. What coder in the world doesn't want his work used by the largest number of people. I really think you should reconsider your stance on that issue.

Sometimes I just enjoy building something cool, and sharing it with others is a side benefit. Plus, with the liability issues surrounding all these programs, I'm not sure I would want my program to become popular enough that it enters Wizard's radar (although it already has at the lower levels).