Is it possible to pause the stack while you do something?
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Re: Is it possible to pause the stack while you do something
by RanDomino » 31 Jan 2013, 21:36
I still don't think that would work. In addition to being a colossal amount of labor, all that interrupts ever did was create a window when a spell is cast, before that spell is put on the stack. Once something that was successfully cast (i.e. not interrupted) starts resolving, everything still resolves without an opportunity to intervene.
Pre-6th rules were awful and needed to die.
Pre-6th rules were awful and needed to die.
Re: Is it possible to pause the stack while you do something
by CirothUngol » 01 Feb 2013, 06:57
Correct.RanDomino wrote:I still don't think that would work.
Interrupts were processed exactly like Instants, only they happened on top of Instants (not in between). You could respond to an Interrupt with another Interrupt, but once both players passed, the Interrupts cascaded last to first just like Instants. Once they resolved, you could again cast Instants or Interrupts on top of that last Instant... kinda like a "Stack on a Stack".
While I'm a big fan of the new rules esthetically (they really do work better), I learned the game using the old rules... so they feel right to me. Hell, I'm the guy who wants to bring back ManaBurn! ^_^Pre-6th rules were awful and needed to die.
Just for the record, it appears that Manalink uses the 5th Edition Rules.
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Re: Is it possible to pause the stack while you do something
by KrNeki » 01 Feb 2013, 08:18
First of all, thank you for the replies since every time in the past this topic was brought up the conversation just died.
Second, I believe you that it would take a lot of work to achieve.
Having said that, I still hope something can be done about the issue, since some card interactions just do not work in the current state of the game. Would it be possible then to change all the interrupts into instants? Would counterspells work as instants in Manalink? That would reduce the amount of work needed I assume (since there are far fewer interrupts than instans) and enable us to use the cards and their interactions as in rl.
Second, I believe you that it would take a lot of work to achieve.
Having said that, I still hope something can be done about the issue, since some card interactions just do not work in the current state of the game. Would it be possible then to change all the interrupts into instants? Would counterspells work as instants in Manalink? That would reduce the amount of work needed I assume (since there are far fewer interrupts than instans) and enable us to use the cards and their interactions as in rl.
Re: Is it possible to pause the stack while you do something
by monopoman » 01 Feb 2013, 08:37
The odds of this happening anytime soon are slim to none it would basically take someone rewriting the entire game. Since no one has access to the source code things are limited on what can and can't be done.
So I wouldn't get your hopes up already the coders have done tons of work just trying to add cards worrying about combos that only work under the new rules are not their top priority. Its not as easy as just "making everything an instant" that change means a lot more to a human than a machine. The machine is the problem here...
So I wouldn't get your hopes up already the coders have done tons of work just trying to add cards worrying about combos that only work under the new rules are not their top priority. Its not as easy as just "making everything an instant" that change means a lot more to a human than a machine. The machine is the problem here...
Re: Is it possible to pause the stack while you do something
by CirothUngol » 01 Feb 2013, 13:36
That's because it simply won't work. It would require a major re-write of the game engine... very difficult without the Source Code. There has been discussion about properly disassembling the executable and converting all identifiable subroutines to C so that such progress could eventually be made, but unless it's a closed-door project, I don't think anyone is doing that.KrNeki wrote:...every time in the past this topic was brought up the conversation just died.
Of course, just like the 2000 card limit (which many said would never be broken), never say never.
Also, Instants can't target Spells or Effects, only Players and Permanents, so Counterspell would not operate as an Instant. There is no way to target spells unless they are the last thing on the Stack, and you can't interrupt the Stack once it begins to resolve.
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Re: Is it possible to pause the stack while you do something
by KrNeki » 01 Feb 2013, 14:22
It was not what I wanted to hear but at least I know now how things stand. Thank you for the explanation.
Re: Is it possible to pause the stack while you do something
by Aquillion » 15 Jun 2013, 04:13
Don't think it would work. My understanding is that interrupts were simply resolved before instants, but were still subject to the everything-resolves-at-once rule; there's no code in Manalink that would let you wait until one thing in the stack resolves and then cast something else.KrNeki wrote:Since we touched on the instant/interrupt debate, I would like to ask if it would be possible to code all instants and instant abilities as interrupts and interrupt abilities respectively? That way, the game would play more like in rl (rules nowdays). Also some cards interactions might work (counterbalance/top). Thoughts anyone?
Ultimately fixing this would require heavy ASM hacking (which is probably unlikely to happen.)
Re: Is it possible to pause the stack while you do something
by Korath » 06 Jul 2013, 11:03
Only moderate asm hacking. My main concern is how the AI would handle it.
What are the practical differences between the 5th edition and current versions of the stack? I know:
I haven't looked into B much, but since triggers do currently go on the stack, I don't expect much difficulty.
C can be done, but it would be clumsy for now - it'd ask you to respond again after each spell or effect resolves, without a separate button to resolve the whole stack.
D, I wouldn't know where to start, but the practical difference is small.
What else is there? Combat damage doesn't still use the stack, does it?
What are the practical differences between the 5th edition and current versions of the stack? I know:
- 5e interrupts work at instant speed, and can target any spell (or effect, if appropriate) on the stack.
- Triggered effects can be responded to. (Do they all have to go on the stack first before they can be responded to?)
- You can put more spells or effects on the stack after anything resolves.
- There's no damage prevention step; regeneration and damage prevention put shields on a creature or player before the damage they're preventing resolves.
I haven't looked into B much, but since triggers do currently go on the stack, I don't expect much difficulty.
C can be done, but it would be clumsy for now - it'd ask you to respond again after each spell or effect resolves, without a separate button to resolve the whole stack.
D, I wouldn't know where to start, but the practical difference is small.
What else is there? Combat damage doesn't still use the stack, does it?
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Re: Is it possible to pause the stack while you do something
by Aquillion » 21 Jul 2013, 20:47
Combat damage doesn't use the stack anymore, no.
Although the way Manalink handles damage prevention is still wrong -- it uses pre-6e rules where damage is dealt and then hangs there where you can direct damage prevention at it in a special pseudo-step. This isn't how it works now; currently, damage prevention has to be used before the damage is dealt, and is always of the form "prevent the next X damage dealt to target creature this turn" or the like. Unlike the stack rules (which break several combos and make some cards uncodeable), this doesn't usually make a big difference, though.
Same for regeneration, which under modern ruler is now always a regeneration "shield" that has to be activated before the creature dies to regenerate it the next time it dies this turn; instead, Manalink still uses early rules where a dying creature activates a special step in which you get a chance to regenerate it. I don't think this matters very often, but it does mean that if you destroy something with a Split Second effect (or with Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir out) your opponent will get a chance to regenerate it after your effect resolves; in modern rules, they wouldn't (they need to activate regeneration before your effect resolves, and Split Second or Teferi would prevent them from doing so.)
Although the way Manalink handles damage prevention is still wrong -- it uses pre-6e rules where damage is dealt and then hangs there where you can direct damage prevention at it in a special pseudo-step. This isn't how it works now; currently, damage prevention has to be used before the damage is dealt, and is always of the form "prevent the next X damage dealt to target creature this turn" or the like. Unlike the stack rules (which break several combos and make some cards uncodeable), this doesn't usually make a big difference, though.
Same for regeneration, which under modern ruler is now always a regeneration "shield" that has to be activated before the creature dies to regenerate it the next time it dies this turn; instead, Manalink still uses early rules where a dying creature activates a special step in which you get a chance to regenerate it. I don't think this matters very often, but it does mean that if you destroy something with a Split Second effect (or with Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir out) your opponent will get a chance to regenerate it after your effect resolves; in modern rules, they wouldn't (they need to activate regeneration before your effect resolves, and Split Second or Teferi would prevent them from doing so.)
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