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Sloth wrote:

lujo wrote:I'll post the decklists and a bit of analysis shortly, but first, please, anyone - how can I disable whatever is preventing the AI from putting cards it can't use very well into decks, so that I can actually see what that looks like and where it would be easy to fix? At least having insight into this is crucial.

You can edit the card scripts directly. The following line in the script will prevent the AI from putting the card into a deck:

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SVar:RemAIDeck:True

EDIT: And by the way. I've enabled the AI to use Deep Spawn today.

^ Very cool, ty! I was going to point out that he was one of the easy candidates! Gonna be interesting (Hope I finally get to have my ass kicked by a humongous lobster, that's worth trying the set out at least once XD)

Also, I spent better part of the afternoon getting to know eclipse and the way cards are scripted. I think I still couldn't build a version, but I could do the simplest things, and noticed that bit of code

Can that be edited without having to rebuild or whatever it is I have to do? Is this code stored in txt files where you can edit it safely?

(If someone told me I was going to be learning how to use java so I can port Merseine of all things into a simulation of MtG at the time I first saw that card I would've called him crazy, and with good cause XD)

EDIT: Oh, and could you also allow Necrite? The AI seems to be way too eager to sacrifice Mindstab Thrull every single time it goes though, and it plays Mindstab Thrull. If those two could check if the opponents hand had at least 2 cards in it (Mindstab Thrull) and that their target wasn't a token or a 1/1 or a 1/2 (Necrite) they'd both be pretty legit. Heck, they'd be legit if the AI never even used their abilities.

Also, I'm not seeing Zelyon Sword used, and it's basically equipment, and the AI can use those, right? I mean, it's 2nd pick, I sure hope it can.

For some strange reason I have a feeling somoene also allowed Derelor lately, as I've had a bout recently where everyone played him and that never happened before

lujo wrote:Can that be edited without having to rebuild or whatever it is I have to do? Is this code stored in txt files where you can edit it safely?

Each card should have a txt file in res/cardsfolder/. If you have a release version you have to unpack the big zip file there and delete the zip file, or edit the files in the zip file (otherwise your changes will not be recognized).

Awesome! I'll make notes on how the cards behave, this is gonna be so sweet! Always wanted to be a MtG dev (of some sort ^^)

Ok, ok, sorry for keeping you away from more pressing things, but I've come up with this for Merseine so far:

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Name:Merseine
ManaCost:2 U U
Types:Enchantment Aura
K:Enchant creature
A:SP$ Attach | Cost$ 2 U U | ValidTgts$ Creature | AILogic$ KeepTapped

T:Mode$ ChangesZone | Origin$ Any | Destination$ Battlefield | ValidCard$ Card.Self | Execute$ AddNetCounters | TriggerDescription$ CARDNAME enters the battlefield with three net counters on it.
SVar:AddNetCounters:AB$PutCounter | Cost$ 0 | Defined$ Self | CounterType$ NET | CounterNum$ 3

S:Mode$ Continuous | Affected$ Creature.EnchantedBy | AddHiddenKeyword$ CARDNAME doesn't untap during your untap step. | CheckSVar$ X | Description$ Enchanted creature doesn't untap during its controller's untap step if Merseine has a net counter on it.
SVar:X:Count$CardCounters.P1P1

A:AB$ RemoveCounter | ValidPlayer$ EnchantedController | Cost$ ??? | CounterType$ NET | CounterNum$ 1 | SpellDescription$ Remove a net counter from CARDNAME.

SVar:Picture:http://www.wizards.com/global/images/magic/general/dehydration.jpg
Oracle:Enchant creature
Merseine enters the battlefield with three net counters on it.
Enchanted creature doesn't untap during its controller's untap step if Merseine has a net counter on it.
Pay enchanted creature's mana cost: Remove a net counter from Merseine. Any player may activate this ability, but only if he or she controls the enchanted creature.

That would need NET counters added somewhere maybe, and I kinda pulled bits off Cocoon and Festering Wound and Dark Depths and probably some other stuff. If by some miracle this works it'd still need to be able to calculate the cost, could you possibly help me out with that, or at least maybe point me in the right direction?

Oh, and it'd need art and a proper place and stuff...

And god knows what else I messed up. I'm notoriously bad with coding. Only coding I ever did was Fallout 2 stuff

Sorry, cleaned it up a bit, posted leftovers from Festering Wound and complications, apologies.

So what I'm unsure of is whether it would count the counters right, whether NET counters need to be defined somewhere else and how to calculate the exact cost. And whether I used the right way to even put the counters on, as for example dark depths uses only:

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K:etbCounter:ICE:10

So it would be:

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K:etbCounter:NET:3

Except I'm not sure how that would interact with the enchant trigger for it being an aura.

I suppose this looks hilarious to someone who actually knows how to do these things right.

Well, I guess SVar:X:Count$CardCounters.P1P1 should be SVar:X:Count$CardCounters.NET or something. But of course the main problem is Cost$ ???. Maybe use EnchantedManaCost like Elemental Resonance which also refers to full mana cost of the enchanted permanent? If that doesn't work, Back from the Brink might help.

Marek14 wrote:Well, I guess SVar:X:Count$CardCounters.P1P1 should be SVar:X:Count$CardCounters.NET or something. But of course the main problem is Cost$ ???. Maybe use EnchantedManaCost like Elemental Resonance which also refers to full mana cost of the enchanted permanent? If that doesn't work, Back from the Brink might help.

Ok, so there are 3 problems, not one.

This part is obviously fine, and works | Open

Code: Select all

Name:Merseine
ManaCost:2 U U
Types:Enchantment Aura
K:Enchant creature
A:SP$ Attach | Cost$ 2 U U | ValidTgts$ Creature | AILogic$ KeepTapped


This should be a replacement effect or something, and probably not use the stack which it currently does: | Open

Code: Select all

T:Mode$ ChangesZone | Origin$ Any | Destination$ Battlefield | ValidCard$ Card.Self | Execute$ AddNetCounters | TriggerDescription$ CARDNAME enters the battlefield with three net counters on it.
SVar:AddNetCounters:AB$PutCounter | Cost$ 0 | Defined$ Self | CounterType$ NET | CounterNum$ 3

Then this part works, thanks to changing the counter type to NET. | Open

Code: Select all

S:Mode$ Continuous | Affected$ Creature.EnchantedBy | AddHiddenKeyword$ CARDNAME doesn't untap during your untap step. | CheckSVar$ X | Description$ Enchanted creature doesn't untap during its controller's untap step if Merseine has a net counter on it.
SVar:X:Count$CardCounters.NET

-
-

But then here, whatever I try I can't get it to get the creatures manacost:

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A:AB$ RemoveCounter | ValidPlayer$ EnchantedController | Cost$ Mana<B B B> | CounterType$ NET | CounterNum$ 1 | SpellDescription$ Remove a net counter from CARDNAME.

I've tried various things, but maybe I'm messing the syntax up or something because it SHOULD work somehow if Elemental Resonance and Back from the Brink work, that means you can get the correct mana cost from a creature, and this should not be the problem, except I can't seem to figure it out.

And it's really weird, because I've had any immaginable ammount (including "1 snow mana" ???) appear as the cost except the casting cost of the enchanted creature o.O

The big problem is actually this bit:

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ValidPlayer$ EnchantedController

I've tried it out with changing the cost to a fixed number, and casting it on the other guys creature, but the other guy couldn't use it, and I still could.



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In other news, having enabled all the cards which should be interesting to the AI, and disabled a bunch which were getting into decks for no good reason, the improvement in deckbuilding is clearly visible - I just had a draft pod with 5 out of seven AI decks in 2 colors! And with pretty sensible cards, too.

There's still a crapton of work that needs to be done, but I have a better idea about what needs to be added to the deckbuilding and card code, and I've spoted holes which can use fixing. Plus, actually getting most of this stuff to work right can and should be used on other sets eventually, as getting some of these guys truly playable by the AI would make a ton of other guys work, too.

Making notes and trying to get Merseine in.

Also - figuring out how to change the draft format for FE to 6 boosters to try that out would help a bunch. I has it's pro's and cons, but it would help the AI decks not unreasonably splash due to a lack of playables.

Also, in the vein of "Disable of AI" tags, the tags I'm pretty certain about ATM which need to be in Forge are "Splashable"/"Nonsplashable", "LimitedColorIdentity" for nonbasic lands (as the AI tends to put any in there), and "Draft"/"RndDeck" + "Limit", which would make the AI only consider drafting or putting a limited ammount of a certain card in.

That's a bare minimum, the basic stuff. Maybe some is allready in and noone applied it to Fallen Empires, but that's absolutely necessary.

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Oh, and lol, now I've got a nonfunctional Merseine in the draft, gonna try a pod, see how it goes, and see if it's getting all the 4 arts (so far I've only seen one).

Argh, lujo. Merseine is not scriptable at the moment (none of the missing cards are, i guess). Don't waste your time trying the impossible.

I will try to add the missing script commands and add Merseine.

Sloth wrote:Argh, lujo. Merseine is not scriptable at the moment (none of the missing cards are, i guess). Don't waste your time trying the impossible.

I will try to add the missing script commands and add Merseine.

Ty very, very much. Just seeing it in the pool felt wonderful, and I've used it in it's "non-functionality" of a pure blue removal and that also felt wonderful after so many FE drafts without it in there.

1) You should be using etbCounter not a trigger that adds counters. Additionally, the Aura attachment (which isn't a trigger either) shouldn't affect etbCounter at all. (Did you try it?) Notice how Cocoon, your reference card, is a trigger, but Merseine is just an ETB replacement ability.
2) If you just want to test if it's activatable, you can just do Cost$ 4, you don't need the Mana<> (that's for special activation costs)
3) You won't be able to use Elemental Resonance or Back from the Brink because they are both special cases. Ideally, Back from the Brink would need to be rewritten to be more flexible, and then Merseine could reuse some of the same code. (The whole pay mana cost of a defined element part)
4) Not sure where you got ValidPlayer from, but that probably has nothing to do with the ActivatingPlayer. We don't currently have a way to restrict this type of Player activation, you can use AnyPlayer$ True (like we use on Volrath's Dungeon) for your testing purposes, it'll let any player activate it. Ideally, all of these Player activations would be merged into an "ActivationPlayer" parameter which would then allow for Player.EnchantedController

lujo wrote:Also - figuring out how to change the draft format for FE to 6 boosters to try that out would help a bunch. I has it's pro's and cons, but it would help the AI decks not unreasonably splash due to a lack of playables.

res/blocksdata/blocks.txt

^ Wow, that's great help guys!

One more draft/deckbuilding tag I forgot to mention is "Chaff", it probably allready exists in some form, but it's a "never ever put this in a deck" for cards which don't work well within a set (but could work in constructed and are technically perfectly playable) so I don't have to stick a global "warning" label on a card, just because it shouldn't be in draft decks.

Or at lest I could use a pointer to where the existing tags are and what exactly they do (I've rounded up some, but I'm not sure about their scope).

All right, I've tried it with 6 boosters and a tweaked temporary Merseine and most cards allowed (only non allowed ones are the ones from the bottom of the pile which are playable but not worth playing).

6 boosters meant all of the decks could've been 2 colored - there's still plenty of strange splashing behavior and odd choices and the AI was mishandling certain cards (as was expected), but there's evident progress here. Heck, my deck ended up being more of a pile than any of theirs, now that I think about it

I've got 3 pages worth of various notes, here's some for now:

- Armor Thrull - seems solid and legit from what I've seen so far. Unless something comes up it seems like he could go into "playable by the AI category". The AI doesn't seem to sac him at every opportunity, quite the opposite, it does so only when he's about to die and this was actually so extraordinary that I'm interested in whatever is making him work this well to try to apply it to other stuff (like Homarid Spawning Bed use).

- Fog effects - probably need a global tweak to when they are used, at least all the fully symetrical ones. The AI uses Spore Cloud right before damage, but blocks and uses stuff to influence combat before that and it all goes to waste. You can really mess yourself up if you play it like this, with Spore Cloud in particular. They generally need to be used before declaring blockers, and probably cause the defender to not declare any. This is for ones which just globally prevent all combat damage, ofc.

- Does anyone know if it's possible to tag the Spore Flower effect as a "fog" of some sort? Is there such a tag already for fog effects? The AI had a well loaded Spore Flower and even chump blocked with it instead of ever using the effect, was very strange.

- Straightening out the whole fog bussiness might pay out grand in the long run because many limited formats (and some constructed decks) have nasty and important fog effects (like Constant Mists, Tangle or Moment's Peace to name the more notorious ones).

- Orcish Captain - has been seriously misevaluated by me. This thing is such a strong Orc Hoser that I'll have to reevaluate red quite a bit, and scripting him to be usable by the AI is basically just a matter of making the AI read his ability not as pump but as removal to be used EOT, repeatedly, until whatever it's targeting dies.

- Orcish Captain - Also, this thing + Imagecrafter or Amoeboid Changeling, or that blue enchantment which changes stuff's creature type for 1 mana (name escapes me right now) can totally wreck many creature decks in constructed. You don't even need Krak's Thumb. There, another REALLY cheezy thing to pick up in FE boosters for your quest.

- Splashing! The AI makes a big mess of it, and it needs case by case attention. Could someone pls point me to where the code for limited deckbuilding is?

- Mindstab Thrull, Necrite, Farell's Mantle and Farrelite Zealot should really have their effect prompts default to "no" rather than "yes" if at all possible. I'm curious about learning to do this myself, so I don't have to pester folks with it.

- In a similar vein, what's the exact way to put in a "safeguard" on part of a card, as in, prevent the AI from using one ability on a card and not the whole card?

General grumbling, not as important | Open

- Goblin Flotilla shouldn't trigger if you don't have any possible sources of red mana (it's a REALLY annoying card to play in Forge, yet you have to play it in this format because it's creature type is so rare, and the evasion comes in handy.) And you can't auto-yield it, either, because when the opponent does have blockers you do want to pay it.

- Goblin Kites should automatically sacrifice the creature, most likely. Right now that uses the stack and you then get asked to manually target the creature you're meant to sacrifice for each creature, and you can only ever select THAT creature. Not sure about it all, but it looks and plays really weird.

- Anyone know how I could get the AI to not prioritize say Ring of Renewal over Fungal Bloom when deciding what to do? It had several Thorn Thallid s which would've murderd all my weenies, and it's perfectly capable of pumping them with the bloom, but it also had a Ring of Renewal and kept tying up all it's mana with it and lost the game. What's funny is that Ring of Renewal wasn't tagged as problematic (I think).

- I've seen Hand of Justice and Thrull Champion go last pick, gotta figure out what was going on there XD Also, Thrull Champion is certainly higher than I placed him, since you can lift other people'd Derelor s. I tried to lift an Armor Thrull with him and the AI made me jump by saccing it in response. Prompted a respectful slow clap on my part, that was a damned fine move and served me right.



And finally (for now, and I might redistribute some of above mentioned ones into appropriate threads):

- Anyone know of a way to draft the 6 FE boosters with 2 opened at the same time? If it's a matter of creating special FE draft boosters consisting of the added contents of 2 boosters, would that be doable somehow?

- If I wanted to enable a "promo coupon" in place of the tricky to code up Raiding Party, which I very much do, would the right way to go about it be to make a file for Raiding Party, make it unusable and undraftable by the AI and just have it use art for a custom made promo coupon?


Crap, ment to just post the broader, easier and obvious ones, turned into a big old texwall -.-

EDIT: Edited stuff for ordering, typos, links and stuff.

lujo wrote:- Goblin Flotilla shouldn't trigger if you don't have any possible sources of red mana (it's a REALLY annoying card to play in Forge, yet you have to play it in this format because it's creature type is so rare, and the evasion comes in handy.) And you can't auto-yield it, either, because when the opponent does have blockers you do want to pay it.

People mention this idea (for different cards) all the time, and each time I strongly disagree. Just because you might not have a red mana source when it would trigger, doesn't mean you couldn't find one in response to the trigger. Additionally, triggers should ALWAYS go onto the stack unless there are no legal targets.

Maybe there should be a way to clear out auto-yielded triggers from a menu that way you can interact with the Flotilla when you want to interact with it, and yield when it doesn't matter.

Oh, I'm absolutely with you on that, that one was more of a bit of exasperation with the absurdly annoying trigger XD Just wanted to throw it out there in case someone had a really creative solution. I can strike it off the note list (as well as the Goblin Kites one) the other ones are much more interesting and important.

Ran another sim, decks looking better than ever. I post some comparisons and illustrations later tonight or tommorrow. However...

Two things I forgot to mention but are kinda important and I'm interested in looking into them, as they might be causing some other stuff that stumps me ocassionaly:

- The AI is really terrible at spotting activated abilities which give first strike. Currently the easiest way to "game" it is to bait it into situations where you can pump something and give it first strike. Not sure what can be done about it, but I have to make a note of it. The other thing, however...

- Banding! There's a concrete problem with it that goes beyond "dumb AI can't deal with banding": it doesn't recognize a band as a single attacker when it's defending. So it'll make blocks as if it's blocking individual creatures in a band and almost always get it's ass kicked.

I've had situations where I attack with something the AI would never block with a 0/2 creature banded with a 1/1 which it would always block with a 0/2. And the AI would block the whole band and get the 0/2 dude killed. What can also happen is that you attack in the same way, a 1/1 + whatever bigger, and the AI will gang block with stuff including 0/2 creatures which add nothing to the fight - because I think it thinks it's safely blocking the 1/1 with them.

Not to mention there's some other odd stuff going on with 0 powered creatures which I'm trying to put my finger on.


EDIT: On a "props to the coder side" I've repeatedly been bushwacked by saprolings jumping out of tapped Thallid Devourer s. Just when you think it's safe to attack with your 1/1 guys... XD

Very interesting read about Fallen Empires. I have a thing for old-days Magic, and this was a nice surprise.