Xyx wrote:Funny anecdote...
Here's an even funnier one - FE boxes were so cheap due to overprinting that every time I'd order a batch of cards from my dealer, he'd throw in a box of FE if my order was high enough. And that wasn't very high. Sealed is one thing, and playing sealed with a whole box is silly. In draft, Hand of Justice is bomby but it never actually dominates if your playgroup knows their stuff, and drafting goblins in sufficient mass at a reasonable table isn't viable for several reasons. The real problems are getting rid of Fungal Bloom , Goblin Kites or Draconian Cylix .
Xyx wrote: I'm sure it's all super nicely balanced for Limited, but for Constructed it was very disappointing at the time, and still is.
You know, this isn't actually true. The reason it's rather great for limited isn't becuase it was balanced for limited (there wasn't any official "limited" played back when it was designed), but because it was playtested by a bunch of guys in a manner very simmilar to how they test sets today. Sets today are mostly tested for limited and block constructed and standard just a tiny bit. And it's a tight, small set, so FE limited is very much the same thing as FE constructed except a bit more varied.
The reason it might have been dissapointing was because it's designers had an eye for balance, so they tried to do away with a lot of things which were later deemed too good anyway, but were staple at the time. They went and made you work for your removal and evasion, and since it was a set with a lot of creatures operating on the board most of it couldn't translate to tourney-level constructed... because nothing sane could. Removal was just too good, for one thing, and FE still had stronger cards on average than anything from Arabian Nighs (excluding them) to Alliances (which were basically a straight-up big power creep spike for the median card power).
Also, the cards were hard to read, and a lot of players were young.
Xyx wrote:Fallen Empires is full of bad cards, though.
And this, again, isn't true at all. It's got a few bad cycles, mostly design mistakes, a bunch of mediocre cards (better ones and fewer truly useless ones than sets of it's age), cards which had been improved upon in small ways a million times (meaning they inspired tons of stuff). And it's got really great cards which were simply never legal in any format which wasn't dominated by design mistakes, but would've been all over the place otherwise.
The "Only Hymn to Tourach and High Tide and maybe something or the other were good cards" is a myth and if someone is saying that they not only don't know what was going on, they don't even know what they're looking at.
Here's your playables:
Undisputably GoodIcatian Javelineers (Anyone disputing that this card shaped metas is talking nonsense. This kills mana dorks and leaves behid a body which gets pumped by Crusade , it was used, and worse cards than it based on it were also used. It was a holy terror.)
Seasinger (This is what Vedalken Shackles was before it was Vedalken Shackles , and you better believe it was used. Overlaps with several other categories. Reprinted recently.)
Hymn to Tourach (Much like Icatian Javelineers , worse cards than it based on it were used and cherished. It was a holy terror and noone who's opened a box of FE has regretted it as long as they got to play these things.)
Soul Exchange (Nothing at all wrong with this card and there never was. Reprinted recently.)
Goblin Chirurgeon (This is a very, very strong card. The fact that he isn't actually the clear strongest card in the set says that there are some really absurdly strong things in it.)
Goblin Grenade (One mana, one goblin - 1/4 of someone's life. Common. You could, and I certainly have, drop people down 10 life for 2 mana and 2 goblins you wouldn't need anymore since you've won. And there weren't nearly as many goblins as there were later.)
Spore Cloud (Was Tangle before Tangle powercreeped the effect up. None the less, Tangle took a long time to arrive, and this just made aggro cry and will just never stop being a fine card)
Thelonite Druid (Yes, MtG gets a dozen new mana sinks and things to do with a lot of lands out, but this guy always had a great capacity to just wtf murder people out of nowhere.)
Aeolipile (Protection weenies were a menace, and this thing was colorless burn. It saw plenty of use.)
Used in competitive decks:Sac Lands (Never was anything wrong with them, they got power creeped up in Masques, but they also got color-shifted in Invasion and they got made plain mana-fixers and graveyard fillers in Oddysey all used in competitive decks)
Goblin Kites (You want to fling a bunch of low-toughness red dudes at the other guy? There you go. 50% chance they live, too. You can also ask the person you're up against how much money did he pay for Moat. Also gets Ball Lightning through first strike.)
Derelor (Was certainly used as Ernham Djinn 5-8 in various decks. Never in black decks, but in places where the penalty was negligable.)
Order of the Ebon Hand (Black Pump knight, popular black weenie, couldn't get blocked by white or die to Icatian Javelineers which was considered a good trait for an agressive dude)
Order of Leitbur (White Pump knight, popular white weenie, culdn't get blocked by black guys, mana sink, sucked a bit in the mirror)
Farrel's Zealot (Banding. No, really, this was played. T1 Benalish Hero, T2 Crusade, T3 Farrel's Zealot. You block the band - you're screwed, you don't block the band - you're screwed.)
High Tide (Honestly, this card was only broken because of the very specific way Urza's "free" spells worked. Overlaps with "became really good". It was made for FE "limited".)
Kitchen Table / Quest in Progress / Was Fine:Spirit Shield and Zelyon Sword (Were equipment, and as long as things werent overly competitive it was usable as it's, well, equipment)
Elven Lyre (Is a clorless Seal of Strength. Was certainly playable.)
Conch Horn (Was colorless card draw, of sorts, and is today considered the most powerful in it's cycle as it's a colorless way to manipulate Miracles)
Thelonite Monk (Well, it used to be either forestwalk against anyone if you want unblockable green dudes, or a mana denial lock-out if you've got tokens.)
Fungal Bloom (Yes, it is niche, but combining it with Spore Flower is and was Turbo Fog for tapping GGGG.)
Elvish Hunter (Hey, it keeps two guys tapped down as long as it's in play, it's better than it looks)
Orcish Captain (It's undisputably good, but it needs to be combo'd up with anything that changes creature types on the other side, so it's more of a case of "became good" rather than "was always good", even though it's quite mean in draft.)
Goblin Warrens (It's 2R for a goblin token, but back in the day having a straightforward way to make any kind of tokens was a big deal. Took the card advantage price out of Goblin Grenade)
Goblin War Drums (Since when is giving all your guys menace a bad thing? Reprinted a lot.)
Homarid Spawning Bed (Always a terror of kitchen tables, but it became downright ugly when faeries were printed in Lorwyn. They were never available in a non-degenerate format, if they were, it would likely be really widely known.)
Dwarven Armorer (You discard something to him, and then you reanimate it. Discarding things was actually quite a pain in the nethers way back in the day, and you could put togather a reanimator in FE draft all along with him and Soul Exchange. There are a million other discard outlets now, but this wasn't always the case.)
Brassclaw Orcs (Mediocre and unimpressive... but wth, it used to be a fine beater you could then chuck to Goblin Kites)
Tourach's Gate (Either it's a Sorcery +2/-1 for your dudes for 1BB and tapping a land, or you can sacrifice a Thrull to keep it going for a bunch. Depending on what creatures you were playing this was easily a fine card.)
Thrull Retainer (Totem Armor , cheap and nice , what's not to like)
Mindstab Thrull (Mindstab, basically a love leter to this card, was a fine card much later. This guy was around when Dark Ritual was around, and things could get hairy for the opponent if at any point turns 1-4 they got hit (3 for 5 with Hymn to Tourach). Also, as opposed to a lot of discard, he was a dude if you drew him later which is kinda nice.)
Initiates of the Ebon Hand (Laundering mana into black was a sought after thing way back in the day as plenty of black things you'd want to play was prone to screw you over with double or even triple mana symbols. This was used more than one would think.)
Breeding Pit (Back in the day, making a token every turn was a rare and precious thing, and Breeding Pit was a sought after card)
Armor Thrull (Was always a fine card - stopped aggro, made your dude beat up the other guy's dude, could be sacrificed to Soul Exchange , lovely card).
Vodalian War Machine (Believe it or not, this used to be used as a budget option for blocking and killing. Because of it's low power it was easy to make it unblockable in several ways and then have it hit for a lot. Overlapping with "became good", it kills someone instantly with intruder alarm and that merfolk which spawns tokens when you tap it.)
Deep Spawn (Way back in the day, he was a rather good budget reanimation option. He could dodge Terror and Swords to Plowshares , was bigger than anything that was likely to see play, trampled and filled the graveyard. Handily came in the same set as Soul Exchange.)
Icatian Phalanx (Yes it's worse than Serra Angel , but a 2/4 banding guy was pretty nasty thing.)
Farrel's Mantle (Put it on a Birds of Paradise turn 2, if you untap with them alive the other guy is in serious trouble if his plan involves creatures.)
Combat Medic (Was and is insuferable. It was slow, but it can completely shut the opponent down on it's own. It's also the main player of the Hand of Justice limited strategies)
And the cards I haven't mentioned mostly weren't bad, just mediocre, even tough there were genuinely bad ones like the original storage lands. Or were used fine enough and do tons of work in draft, but look a bit funny now (like most things do). But saying Fallen Empires was bad because it didn't radically stir up the metagame dominated by vintage staples... that just means most cards in it are in the same category of pretty much 95% or more of all MtG cards ever. And it has a fine count of cards which did shake it up, and an even nicer one of cards which would've played ball in any standard. This they actually did do via their slightly tweaked or slightly better templated or slightly powered up clear descendants.
Anywho, I gotta write the set up, how it's supposed to work for limited and block, make a nice little map of what's being put in decks and what isn't and where it's not going the way it should be. If anyone decides to help out by enabling things that can be enabled and looking into the things that just need some AI tweaks that'd be swell. If limited works as intended, "set constructed" is just a matter of making constructed decks out of all the archetypes.
Posted: 30 Sep 2016, 17:54
It's just that Fallen Empires is forever branded in my mind as a contender for the Worst Set Ever. You speak of power creep, but there was never actually a time when it wasn't a contender for that title.