My new low-power Quest: Choose sets for me!

[RumbleBBU]

Inspired by the lujo's Sarpadia/Fallen Empires thread and a wave of nostalgia, I've decided to embark on a new Forge Quest. Unlike previously, where I've tried to limit my Suests to specific eras, I've decided on a different theme for this Quest: this time, I'm trying to specifically limit my power by deliberately picking weak or 'underpowered' sets only, for added challenge and to force me to use cards I would never normally use.
Invasion block or earlier only. I don't want to pick Starter level sets, not because they are generally pretty low level (which is good) but because their mechanics are too simplistic. They don't challenge my brains or creativity enough. I don't mind low power but I want enough complexity.

Tentatively, I'm thinking of going with Chronicles, Fallen Empires, Homelands, Nemesis and Prophecy. Five sets for enough variety but no more. However - I'm letting YOU make my final choice. Use the voting buttons - I will try whatever you choose for me. I will pick the sets with the most votes for this Quest.

Unfortunately, the poll lets me list no more than 10 options, so I've selected 10 notoriously low-powered non-Starter sets from the early era for the poll (Planeshift may be a stretch here but the other options were not much better). Aside from a handful sets, I deliberately omitted large sets (such as Ice Age, Mirage, Urza's Saga etc.) because they tend to have enough variety to actually make them work. Legends is an exception because its Commons were terrible, the other two (CHR and MMQ) were relatively low power anyway.

Please vote!

Other things to consider:

Which opponents should I play? I don't want enemies with vastly more modern cards, so my first choices would be the stanrdard Shandalar or Jamuraa opponents, or my custom Encyclopedia opponents (basically Shandalar opponents and some extra Hard & Very Hard opponents that use all pre-Mirage sets) but I have designed private Worlds for every block from Mirage to Invasion.

Should I play these expansions only or add a core set for staple cards? Obviously, if I end up with 5 disparate small sets, that'll be much more of a challenge, so I guess that's the way to go. But against Hard and Very Hard opponents, it may be frustrating if I have no access of any kind to regular core cards. Maybe unlock a core set later on in the Quest?

How many sets should pick? Is 5 too much, maybe 3 only?

I don't want to pick my bias color yet - that will depend on which sets you give me. Or should I just pick random/balanced distribution and work it from there?

Quest log to follow later...

[lujo]

I flagged The Dark , Fallen Empires and all three from the Masques Block.

It ought to work. Masques has some core cards. You might want to unlock, a core set eventually though.

[dingbat1]

Why don't you just do Mercadian Masques block?

I'm always happy when someone goes out of their way to make more worlds, but XYX has done a very good job building some quest worlds for the older sets, and there already exist some for more modern environments like Lorwyn and Shadowmoor, but I don't think anyone's working on a Mercadian Masquest block.

Then, people will be able to judge for themselves how good/bad the block is.


I know you're looking to play, rather than build, but this will let you build a number of decks which someone could then adapt into creating a quest world.

[RumbleBBU]

Wow, it looks like I'm getting Homelands and Prophecy at least. That ought to be fun!

But behind those two, it's a big fat tie. Need more votes!

Homelands and Prophecy...well, those two at least meet the 'low power' requirement. Actually, the Homelands expansion has some quite interesting cards in it but the general problem is, like someone once put it, all cards have or too much in their mana costs.

As for Prophecy - and not just Prophecy but the Masques block in general - I think the biggest downfall of the block was its mechanics. I totally get that they wanted to introduce more interactive mechanics but it resulted in underpowered cards and mechanics.

Rhystic (i.e. "do something unless a player pays something") spells/abilities just make those cards too situational. Most of the time those spells and abilities are pretty much useless unless you can somehow force or lure opponent to tap out. Not the kind of cards I normally want to include in my playdeck, aside from a very few exceptions.

Mongers were the opposite case. I don't know how well the AI can use Mongers you play, but in many cases you could be shooting yourself in the foot if you play them.

And my least favorite of all - Spellshapers. Nice idea, but the actual cards tended to be underpowered, too slow and/or had terrible card economy. Most of the effects were too marginal to justify their inclusion in your deck instead of some genuinely strong cards. Aside from extra lands (when you already have enough), what would you discard to them anyway? If you are including spells that are as weak or weaker than the Spellshaper effects in your deck, there is something inherently wrong with the deck.

...sorry about the rant but that's just what I remember the Masques block being like.

So Homelands and Prophecy it is, probably, I'm just waiting eagerly what else you pick for me. Gah, I hope not Antiquities. It's not a horribly weak set, there are a couple of pretty strong cards in it, but its scope/theme is a bit limited and it wouldn't have much synergy with HML and PCY. (Aside from the Urza lands to power the overcosted Homelands cards, I guess...)

@dingbat, a clarification: I'm not building a new World, I'm just starting a new Quest game and looking for a challenge.

The private Worlds I mentioned are just something I hacked up to have some variety...they are not well designed or balanced enough for public release. I simply Forge-ized some popular decks from the era, sometimes tried to make them a bit more AI-compatible, and sometimes didn't even bother with that. I also added some wacky designs of my own, like 'Green Control deck' or 'Blue aggro'...sometimes the results were actually surprisingly effective. Here's one such deck from my personal Invasion block world, a 40-card 'Brown Control' deck. I needed more Easy decks for the world, and thought that a pure 7th Edition Artifact deck without any attacking creatures would be a total pushover. How wrong I was! This deck can whip you good unless you are packing some heavy artifact destruction/control - which you often don't have access to early on in a Quest game. But obviously cards like Shatterstorm, Builder's Bane and Energy Flux would work well against this deck.

| Open

4 Aladdin's Ring|7ED
4 Disrupting Scepter|7ED
4 Ensnaring Bridge|7ED
4 Howling Mine|7ED
4 Millstone|7ED
16 Plains|7ED
4 Wall of Spears|7ED

The way my private Worlds figure into the Quest game I'm starting is that they allow me to choose which opponents to play in that Quest. That will obviously depend on the sets you pick for me - if I get the full Mercadian block, for example, I will probably choose Mercadia opponents.
(You can do this by adding a World definition to the text file that defines the opponents directory only and no format - then that World will just use those opponents and the format you select for your Quest.)

[RumbleBBU]

Hmm... Homelands, Prophecy, Mercadian Masques and... Antiquities?
Better and better.

But not Fallen Empires. Dang. I was kind of looking forward to giving that set a go after that wonderful nostalgia thread started by lujo.

I will wait a day or two and see if more votes come in, then launch a Quest using whatever 3-5 sets are leading the poll at the time.

Remember, you can vote for more than one set (up to 5)! So if you have already voted but for just one set, you can vote again and check more options.

[RumbleBBU]

Game on!

Okay, so Antiquities, Homelands, Mercadian Masques and Prophecy it is. Thank you for your votes! That should definitely be an interesting challenge. And should give me enough different cards to prevent the Quest starting pool generation from crashing or hanging.

For my opponents, I picked the Encyclopedia decks. I considered my personal Mercadia world (since I am getting two sets from the block already) but decided to use the Encyclopedia instead because 1) the other two sets (HML, ATQ) are covered by my Encyclopedia world, and 2) the readers of this will be familiar with most Encyclopedia opponents. 2/3 of the Encyclopedia decks are straight from Shandalar, including all Easy and Medium opponents.

I chose Fantasy mode but I don't plan to use any pets except perhaps in Challenges.

I enabled unlocking. I might later on unlock Nemesis (to complete the Masques block) and one core set, if possible. For the core set, the 5th Edition would be the obvious choice. I hope to see that listed as an option...

No color bias. I thought I could have used Blue and a 'Fish' theme deck but you didn't give me Fallen Empires (lots of Merfolk cards) or Nemesis (Seahunter), so that plan fell through.
Even with just two Mercadian sets, White bias and a Rebels build (albeit a little demented one, without NMS/Lin Sivvi) would probably have been a strong alternative. But too predictable. No, I didn't want to head down that route, not deliberately at least.

So I chose balanced distribution, strictly playing what I get. (Probably not Green, though...I hope!)

Embark!

Let's see what I've got...

Artifacts: Thankfully, two very nice cards that are usable in almost any deck: a Tetravus and Serrated Arrows.
Ornithopter, Primal Clay, Henge Guardian and Onulet might be usable in my early decks as well, and then there is the combo deck favorite, Candelabra of Tawnos. Sadly, I won't be getting many cards that allow me to abuse it. No Urza's block here. But at least it will fetch me a pretty penny once I get the 1000-creds limitation lifted. The rest of the artifact cards were forgettable, trash like Tablet of Epityr, so I'll probably sell them.

Lands: A full set of Urza lands, two Mines and Power Plants and one Tower. Good if I choose to go Artifact-heavy. Or for powering those silly Homelands casting costs. The rest were rubbish or unusable, like a Koskun Keep and a Castle Sengir.

White: A handful of Rebels. Ramosian Sergeant, Task Force, Thermal Glider, Ramosian Captain, Pious Warrior, Trenching Steed, Jhovall Rider, Cho-Arrim Bruiser...ok, make that a bit more than a handful. The tutoring caps are not ideal but this could work as the core of my deck if I manage to get a few more Rebel tutors. Also, a couple more usable cards like a Glittering Lynx, a Diving Griffin and Noble Purpose. An oh yeah, everybody's favorite, the Ignoble Soldier just couldn't resist crashing the party. But in general, looks like White will at least play a part in my deck. Maybe a major part.

Blue: Some usable cards like Thwart, Foil, Rethink, and Gush, and of course, the Blue Homelands card, Merchant Scroll. An Energy Flux, a solid sideboard card against Artifact-heavy opponents, and an Avatar of Will, a potential finisher which will simply mow through many Encyclopedia creatures (if I manage to cast it). Also a Marjhan. An unimpressive overcosted HML Rare but I make a mental note - the Marjhan really loves to be everybody's idol. So if you see a Charisma in the store, buy it! Too bad there wasn't one in the store or in my starting pool, And finally...drumroll...Bribery! Oh yes! Blue is a strong contender for my second color.

Black: Boring, boring Black. A Skulking Fugitive, a Silent Assassin and a Deathgazer. That's about it. Never mind the rest. Nothing to write home about.

Red: Pretty much horrible. Overcosted, underpowered, and situational cards. Warmonger would be okay if I had a Charisma...but I don't. That Shatterstorm and a Hammer Mage are solid sideboard cards against Artifact-heavy opponents and that Avatar of Fury could be a nice surprise drop in certain situations - but other than that, meh. And I got almost as good alternatives for those from Blue. Won't be going Red this game.

Green: Almost as horrible as Red. Weak creatures and useless noncreature spells. Thresher Beast and Spectral Bears are just about the only Green creatures I would even consider playing. Kind of sad, really.

So...UW looks like the way to go. Now I just need to sell off the rubbish and see if I can get anything to significantly improve my deck from the shop. I actually have enough playable White and Blue cards already, I just need to see if there is anything better available.

There isn't. So I just buy two more life with the excess cash. (I plan to get it up to 20 but no higher than that.)

Time to build my initial deck. First I stash in all White, Blue and colorless cards that I think could be usable. Then I weed out cards that are too overcosted, too situational or do not fit the overall scheme, to make room for enough land. Since I have cards that require more than one or , I want to try a 17/23 land/spells ratio. This is what I come up with:

| Open

Creatures:
1 Glittering Lynx
1 Cloud Sprite
1 Ramosian Sergeant
1 Mesa Falcon
1 Crossbow Infantry
1 Diplomatic Escort
1 Drake Hatchling
1 Diving Griffin
1 Ramosian Captain
1 Task Force
1 Thermal Glider
1 Pious Warrior
1 Tetravus
1 Avatar of Will

Spells:
1 Cho-Manno's Blessing
1 Last Breath
1 Rhystic Study
1 Rethink
1 Serrated Arrows
1 Foil
1 Thwart
1 Gush
1 Bribery

11 Island
10 Plains

First duel: Sea Dragon

Blue-White vs Blue. The Sea Dragon has a relatively slow deck that will eventually kick your rearside if left unchecked. My basic game plan is to keep hitting him with my cheap creatures and disrupt his play so I win before he gets any big meanies out. Let's see how that works out...

Game 1. A promising start. I get enough land and a Ramosian Sergeant in my opening hand. Ooops - I have nothing that the Sergeant could tutor for in my deck! How embarrassing! I had already cut Rebels that were too expensive for both of my two Rebel tutors but forgot to check if there was a gap between the Sergeant and the Captain. Well, never mind.
My first real game choice comes on my fourth turn: cast a Rhystic Study or a Thermal Glider? Card advantage or aggro? The Sea Dragon has expensive spells so he will probably tap out sooner or later. I decide to see if the Rhystic Study is any good. Unfortunately for my opponent, though, he gets stuck at 3 lands. Two turns later I draw a Thwart so I cast the Thermal Glider too. He counters it, as expected. I Thwart the Counterspell.
Hmm, Rhystic Study doesn't seem to be doing much except forcing my opponent to tap out.
He doesn't draw more land. My army of 3 weenies (Ramosian Sergeant, Cloud Sprite, Thermal Glider) slowly but inexorably grind him to death.

Game 2. No one-drops in my hand but a decent mix of lands and spells anyway, I keep it. The Sea Dragon drops a Mana Vault. This could be bad news.

It is.

A turn 2 Water Elemental.

There is absolutely no way I can answer to that until I get Serrated Arrows out. At that stage, I'm down to 7. I put a -1/-1 counter on the Elemental and effectively trade my Thermal Glider to it, letting my Crossbow Infantry deal the required one more damage. It was either that or a very short game for me.
Then...the tide of the battle slowly turns. The Sea Dragon cannot untap his Mana Vault and doesn't cast any more creature spells. I drop a Diving Griffin, then a Tetravus...by the time the Sea Dragon has all his Islands and the Mana Vault untapped, he is down to 1 life. He summons a Jasconius but it is too late...I have 4 attacking creatures. I march to an easy victory, after an unpleasant start.

Again, my Rhystic Study was totally useless. I probably need to swap it out. It was just sitting there, simply making my opponent pay more for spells. Exactly the reason why I always thought Rhystic spells sucked.

2-0. I get to choose between Homelands and Antiquities boosters. Whoopee.
I choose Antiquities. At least those cards tend to sell for more money.

I get a second Tetravus, an Atog, Drafna's Restoration, Reconstruction and stuff.
Plus...a random rare!

It is...

...a Willow Priestess. Whoopee-doo!
Sell.

Nothing particularly interesting in the store. But I now have just enough money to raise my life to 18.

Out goes Rhystic Study, say hello to our newest memeber, Tetravus #2. I consider swapping out the currently useless Ramosian Sergeant but don't have any better 1 or 2-drops so she can stay. At least she is a 1/1 for 1.

Game on...

[lujo]

Here's a tip which might serve you well - Prophecy actually has servicable black cards. Bog Glider looks harmless and awful but he can get you Agent of Shauku who's way better than he looks (like, seriously way better). Since you've got Mercadian Masques, you can also get Snuff Out , Vendetta , Cateran Brute and Misshapen Fiend (who's Bog Imp , but if it's tutorable and has Agent of Shauku ready to pump it for "tap swamp do damage" so it's not that bad). Also, Steal Strength is rather good if you need a combat trick, Greel's Caress is fine cheap removal for small stuff (of the kind blue gets and uses in drafts but it's strangely fine in low-powered constructed, too). Soul Strings is also kinda nice.

With Dark Ritual being common in Masques, I'd probably be angling for black in that quest. Antiquities have strangely good and somewhat unique black cards, too.

[RumbleBBU]

@lujo: Oh, I totally agree - there are some quite usable Black cards and strategies in the Masques block. The problem is that I didn't get any in my starting pool. If I had got a single decent Black creature removal spell in that pool, I would have definitely at least minored in Black. No such luck.

But yes, I'm keeping all Black cards that could be useful. Maybe build a Black deck later...

[RumbleBBU]

And here's the next chapter in my Quest log...

Next opponent, Seer. Monoblue opponent but very different from the Sea Dragon. Her cheap fliers will put some early pressure you and stop your weenies.

This was a much closer duel than the first one. She had me on the ropes in both games (in early/midgame) but I managed to recover both times. Duel #2 was largely decided by my successfully Bribery-ing one of her Time Elementals, after which I just kept bouncing her Tetravus to her hand and she kept recasting it, while I unloaded one of my Tetravi and my Avatar of Will that eventually did her in.

2-0, choice between Homelands and Prophecy.

I choose the Prophecy booster, and again get a random rare, Squee. Nothing great in the booster, I sell most cards (including a useless foil Green Rare) and still have the money for 18 life. I do get some potentially useful PCY cards, though, a second Rethink and one more Rebel (Sword Dancer, can be tutored for with the Sergeant). The store is offering a Story Circle. I sell two more cards I'm not using so I can afford it and 18 life.

Swap out the Mesa Falcon for Sword Dancer, Last Breath for Story Circle, and Foil for a second Rethink. The last swap might not be wise but with a two-color deck, I just didn't seem to have an excess Island in my hand, like ever, so the alternate CC of Foil seemed very much pointless. We'll see...

I pick a different opponent again, the Elvish Mage. I fear this duel could be a bad matchup, aggro Elves vs my mostly-weenies and slower control part. I get a decent start, though, Cho-Manno's Blessing on a Diving Griffin before the Elvish Mage starts attacking. That allows me to attack and stop any one attacking Elf. But I draw only land after land after land and the Elves keep piling up. I have 8 lands and there are several Elven Riders on the Battlefield already. Not good. But at least my Sword Dancer will keep the hurt to a minimum. I manage to stall until I get a Tetravus out (I have 6 life), then it's bye-bye, Elvish Mage.

Game 2. Problematic starting hand. 2 Islands, 5 White spells. Mulligan down to 6. Better: a Story Circle but only one Plains.
My Task Force holds off most attackers until I can cast the Circle. After that it gets boring. I just need to keep some available. Then the Elvish Mage makes the rather absurd play of casting Hurricane for 15, taking himself to 1 life while I just Story Circle the damage away. He is tapped out with 6 untapped blockers, I have 7 attackers. End of story. 2-0 again.

Antiquities booster, nothing spectacular...but that Rocket Launcher sounds nice for weenie control. Or for finishing off opponents. Colorless DD is always nice to have.
I buy a Devout Witness. Unlimited Disenchant can't be all bad.

To be continued... (the further log entires might be less verbose than so far)