Quest Mode: Guide to Formats, Worlds, and everything

[RumbleBBU]

Thanks for your well thought-out post, serrasmurf!

Pretty difficult to start there and develop a proper deck though.

Yeah, I know. In my test run, I lost my first 2 duels by a pretty big margin. Then won one duel, then again lost 2 before my second win. My starting pool was pretty bad, though, and the pathetic excuse of a BG deck I played with until I got some better cards (the only semi-playable deck I could build out of my starting cards) would have been scoffed at by Golgari enthusiasts...

• It should be a bit easier to get 2 or 3 copies of a certain important rare. It is tough now to develop your deck properly without going over the top with something as ante. (with ante you can easily win a lot of high value rares but you always lose that 1 rare you are building around).

I agree this is something of a problem when playing a World with a relatively large cardbase and you want to build a specific type of deck. I remember my earlier 'Encyclopedia' Quest that covered all sets up to Alliances and I wanted to make a Necro deck...I was buying Ice Age boosters and starter packs like crazy and won something like 250 duels before I had 3 copies of The Skull.

Bazaar is one solution but somehow, I feel that getting a duplicate of an existing card should something more special. In Microprose's Shandalar game, you could sometimes get a "duplicate card of your choice" as an extra reward for beating certain opponents...Mind Stealer was one of them, maybe Elementalist was another. At least I remember 'farming' Mind Stealers for extra copies of the P9 cards years ago. (I.e., loiter around the Black(?) Castle, and enemies would spawn to drive you away...among them, Mind Stealers. Or was it Blue Castle? Mind Stealers have a deck.)

In a similar fashion, maybe 'duplicate card of player's choice' could be a special reward that you could specify in a Quest challenge? I've been thinking of adding more options than just "n rares" to challenge rewards for some time now, and this is definitely a possibility. (Can't promise how soon, though.)

Sol already replied to the starting pool comment, so I'm skipping it.

• Card prices. The game is off balance with a lot of old cards having high value not related to card power. You have to restrain yourself for not going a route to collect these cards and generate a lot of cash. On the other hand are normal good cards from these sets unbuyable.

The card prices reflect (to a degree) the actual 'market value' prices of certain cards, not their play value...which results in some counterintuitive issues like the different editions of the same card having different prices. Yes, you can abuse this in some ways. For example, if you have 4 copies of a first printing card, sell them, and buy white-bordered reprints of the same card. They work just as well, and you probably made a profit here.
That's just how the Quest mode works ATM.

Do we need a special thread for worlds building so we see can see where others are working on? I could start a topic under quest decks, but maybe we need separate area.

I think that the Decks subforum is a good place for World decks development discussion (it's not a high-volume forum anyway). There probably should be a single sticky thread in the Decks area to collect completed Worlds that are ready for inclusion in Forge.

[timmermac]

Ask, and ye shall receive. Check the Decks section... <grin>

[serrasmurf]

• It should be a bit easier to get 2 or 3 copies of a certain important rare. It is tough now to develop your deck properly without going over the top with something as ante. (with ante you can easily win a lot of high value rares but you always lose that 1 rare you are building around).

I agree this is something of a problem when playing a World with a relatively large cardbase and you want to build a specific type of deck. I remember my earlier 'Encyclopedia' Quest that covered all sets up to Alliances and I wanted to make a Necro deck...I was buying Ice Age boosters and starter packs like crazy and won something like 250 duels before I had 3 copies of The Skull.

Bazaar is one solution but somehow, I feel that getting a duplicate of an existing card should something more special. In Microprose's Shandalar game, you could sometimes get a "duplicate card of your choice" as an extra reward for beating certain opponents...Mind Stealer was one of them, maybe Elementalist was another. At least I remember 'farming' Mind Stealers for extra copies of the P9 cards years ago. (I.e., loiter around the Black(?) Castle, and enemies would spawn to drive you away...among them, Mind Stealers. Or was it Blue Castle? Mind Stealers have a deck.)

In a similar fashion, maybe 'duplicate card of player's choice' could be a special reward that you could specify in a Quest challenge? I've been thinking of adding more options than just "n rares" to challenge rewards for some time now, and this is definitely a possibility. (Can't promise how soon, though.)

I think every 10/15 wins is a good pace for getting extra copies of your rares. It will still take 20/30 games before your grave pact deck becomes somewhat consistent. Building a combo deck with 2 rares will take you about 100 wins. You should not get the copy, but still have to pay for it, to prevent moxmania. Challenges or Bazaar items are both fine means to implement this reward

[Max mtg]

It will be easy to develop a consumable inventory item that copies cards, with possible restrictions on rarity and/or set.
The hard part for me is GUI: a view to see how many there are left of each kind, choose the card to copy, show the confirmation with card picture window.

If we had a free-to-play game with microtransactions, that would be one of moneymaking features. (unfortunatelly, due to lack of rights on the IP, we can't do so)

[RumbleBBU]

Just so you'd know, I have now committed a slight expansion of the Quest challenge reward code. The new added features include:

- you can now specify a list (';' separator) of several rewards
- a duplicate card of the player's choice is now a possible challenge reward
- also a specific card (+specific edition) can be specified as a reward
- for any reward, you can specify a % chance of getting it

This ought to be in the next snapshot (and beta, naturally), and I will update (hopefully sometime today...) the guide on the first page to better cover how challenge rewards work now.

[Max mtg]

Well, that was not a good idea to put GuiChoose.one inside parseReward method.
That breaks the Single responsibility principle. In an example right in the article they say that report compilation and formatting should be performed in different classes. Yet, here we got two different actions implemented in a single method, not even single class.

Consider making a special class implementing InventoryItem that would incapsulate the duplicator. Parse method returns a list of inventoryItems then. At the moment the rewards are given user might decide which card to copy. This way you'll eliminate dependenices on GUI and player's inventory from an utility class.

[edessa]

I have a suggestion, maybe the use of world pets, different pets according to the world you are in. It could be interesting and make the world experience more unique.

[friarsol]

I have a suggestion, maybe the use of world pets, different pets according to the world you are in. It could be interesting and make the world experience more unique.

I always picture pets as basically a Wizard's Familiar (ala D&D). If it's destroyed you can't use it for the rest of the game, but you would travel the worlds with your Pet. Although, I suppose you might be able to buy different Pets based on the world you are in, and just choose the one you like best. The toughest thing with Pets is getting the balance right, since they do start the game in play.

[Max mtg]

Imagine, a certain world makes some pets feel... sick, that is they may gain keywords like "does not untap during its contoller's upkeep" (ape pet is depressed in the dark plane of innistrad) or "is green and has trample" (crocodile is happy to get into wild jungle and feels great there)

So there's a plenty of possibilities, yet it needs to be balanced.

[RumbleBBU]

I have now fixed the technical issues reported by Max earlier. In the end, I replaced the whole QuestRewardCardChooser class with an interface that is implemented by two different classes. As a bonus, a new functionality has been added, it is now also possible to get a challenge reward that allows you to pick any card from a predefined pool of cards, e.g. "any rare Blue Creature" or "any Land from Arabian Nights, Legends or Revised Edition" (if you don't specify any sets, the Quest/World format is used).

The downside is, while improving the code, I haven't been able to update the documentation like I promised. I will try to do that later this week.

Regarding pets, in my first Quest I actually thought they were like Sol described above. "So this thing costs me 250 credits and then is killed by a Lightning Bolt or an StP in my first duel? No thank you!" I resisted using them until I tried my first challenge where I decided to use any help I could get...and discvered that although my pet was in fact alive and well even though it had been killed in the first duel.

Thanks for the ideas. Quest world specific pets and worlds affecting pets are definitely possibilities.

[myk]

One thing that's been bugging me about quest mode is that there's no way to find out which cards I haven't yet acquired in a quest, so I know whether to keep on choosing booster backs from a particular set or whether I'm already as complete as I'm going to get. I was thinking we could create a Full Catalog mode in the spell shop. It would be available via a button in the spell shop screen and would replace the left pane with the full catalog. The cards in this mode would not be transferable, but the new Owned column would indicate which cards are missing and the new filter functionality could narrow the list to the pertinent sets.

Actually, maybe this could tie into the rewards system. A player could receive permission to transfer a card of a particular type (e.g. "Any land", "One Mythic Rare", "One white ") and the UI can display/highlight/filter the appropriate choices. What do you think?

[Sloth]

- Finetune the decks for AI performance. Even when a card is supported by Forge, the AI might not know how to play it properly. In such cases, you might want to swap a card for another relatively similar card.

I took a look at some of your quest world decks and found some cards the AI cannot use.

Shandalar decks: Black Lotus, Lord of the Pit, Timetwister, Mana Vault, Apprentice Wizard, Dark Ritual, Mana Flare, Ley Druid, Mana Short, Unstable Mutation, Coral Helm, Balance, Demonic Tutor, Fellwar Stone, Siren's Call, Time Elemental, Winds of Change, Channel, Twiddle, Conversion

For example, a couple of decks I used to build the Jamuraa decks had Frenetic Efreet in them. Now the AI is really bad with 0-cost abilities. It tries to use them whenever it can, even when it can't really benefit from them. As a result, its Frenetic Efreet is always phased out (until the AI loses the flip and has to sac its Efreet). So I replaced the Frenetic Efreets in the Jamuraa AI decks with some other creatures - except for one 'Easy' deck where I deliberately left it in so you can have a laugh at the AI's peformance with the card.

I don't think this is a good idea. People will post about this in the "Card AI (Improvements) Requests" forum and expect a reply.

[RumbleBBU]

Thanks for the comments, Sloth!

I feel, though, that discussion on the actual World decks would be better served on the Decks subforum, more specifically in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=9457&p=108749#p108749
I'm adding my detailed reply to that thread. (I prefer to keep this thread documentation-focused.)

[RumbleBBU]

As promised, here's finally the documentation on the new challenge reward functionality.

Quest Mode Guide Part 3: Challenge Rewards

Traditionally, the special rewards for Quest challenges have been simply "(4) (color) rares". The upcoming beta (1.3.6) expands the challenge reward functionality considerably by adding new card reward types, the option to list multiple different rewards for a challenge, and the option to add a % chance for any reward.


The general format for card rewards is now:

For a single reward:

Code: Select all

Card Reward=(reward)


For multiple rewards:

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Card Reward=(reward);(reward);(reward)


You can list as many separate rewards as you like, separated with semicolons (;), but please do remember to exercise moderation.

Each (reward) can be one of the following:
1. (n) random rares of a given type
2. a specific card
3. a duplicate of a card currently owned by the player, chosen by the player
4. a card selected by the player from a predefined pool of cards

In addition, a % probability can optionally be added to the beginning of any reward. For example, if you add "70%" before a reward, the player has a 70% chance of getting this particular card if he wins the challenge.

How to specify the different rewards:

1. (n) random rares of a given type

The syntax is:

Code: Select all

(n) (restriction) rares

(n): amount of random rare cards that will be given to the player.
(restriction): This parameter must be one of the following (or be omitted):
black
blue
green
red
white
colorless
multicolor
land
creature
artifact
planeswalker
instant
sorcery
enchantment

If the (restriction) parameter is omitted, any (format-compliant) rare card can be produced.
You cannot currently use several different restrictions with this reward type. You must use exactly one restriction or none.
Any (restriction) that is not on the above list will be ignored.

The word "rare" can also be used instead of "rares".

Note that the format specifications (from the persisting player-defined format or the World format) always apply to this reward type.


Examples

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3 multicolor rares

This reward will give the player 3 random rare multicolor cards (from the current format), obviously enough.

Code: Select all

2 random rares

This will give the player two totally random rare cards from the current format. (Note that the "random" specifier could as easily be omitted.)

2. a specific card

The syntax for a specific card is:

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(card name)|(set code)

If you do not know the set code for card, you can look it up either in the card file. All set codes are listed in the res/blockdata/setdata.txt file.

Example

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Mox Jet|LEB

This will give the player the Beta edition Mox Jet.

3. a duplicate of a card currently owned by the player

Syntax:

Code: Select all

duplicate card

When the player is given this reward, a list of all cards currently owned by the player is displayed and the player can choose one card from the list. He or she will receive an extra copy of that card.

4. a card selected by the player from a predefined pool of cards

Like #3, this also lets the player choose any card he or she from a list of cards. In this case, a predefined cardpool is used instead of the player's current inventory.

Syntax:

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chosen card desc:(description) rules:(restriction),(restriction) rarity:(rarity),(rarity) sets:(set code),(set code)

The specification chosen card is the only required element. All others are optional. If no other parameters are specified, the player can freely choose from all cards that are legal in the current Quest format. (You probably want to avoid that!)

desc:(description) A verbose description of the choice. Example: "desc:a Blue Creature".
rules:(restriction) The same restrictions are available as in type 1 but the difference is that here you can specify more than one restriction, separated with commas. Example: "rules:creature,blue".
rarity:(rarity) Must be one of the following: common, uncommon, rare, mythic rare. Optionally you can just use the first letters (C, U, R, M). Cards of the listed rarities will be on the list. You can list more than one rarity separated with commas. Example: "rarity:C,U".
sets:(set code) Only cards from the specified set or sets (separated with commas) will be on the list. The set codes can be found in the res/blockdata/setdata.txt file. Example: "sets:ARN,LEG,MIR,VIS". NOTE: If specified, this parameter supercedes the current format.

A complete example of this last type, combining the examples above:

Code: Select all

chosen card desc:a Blue Creature rules:creature,blue rarity:C,U sets:ARN,LEG,MIR,VIS

This reward allows the player to choose any common or uncommon blue creature from Arabian Nights, Legends, Mirage, or Visions.

Putting it all together

Here is an actual example from a Shandalar challenge:

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Card Reward=33% chosen card sets:3ED,4ED,ARN,ATQ,DRK,LEG rules:white desc:a White card;chosen card sets:3ED,4ED,ARN,ATQ,DRK,LEG rules:white desc:a White card;3 white rares;50% 1 white rare

How to read this:
"33% chosen card sets:3ED,4ED,ARN,ATQ,DRK,LEG rules:white desc:a White card" - The player has a 33% chance of getting a reward that lets him/her choose any White card that was printed in Revised Edition, 4th Edition, Arabian Nights, Antiquities, The Dark, or Legends.
"chosen card sets:3ED,4ED,ARN,ATQ,DRK,LEG rules:white desc:a White card" - Like above, but this second reward is guaranteed (100%).
"3 white rares" - Gives the player 3 random White rares (from the Shandalar format).
"50% 1 white rare" - The player has a 50% chance of getting a fourth random White rare (from the Shandalar format).

Another actual example, from Jamuraa:

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Card Reward=15% duplicate card;2 rares;66% Snake Basket|VIS

In this example, the player is guaranteed two random rares from the Jamuraa format. The player also has a 66% chance of getting a Visions Snake Basket, and a 15% chance of getting a duplicate card of his/her choice.

[myk]

I've spent some time on the Spell Shop interface and implemented some usability features that I hope people will find convenient:

• The "Owned" column. This column is intended to help the player decide whether buying an item is likely to be beneficial. The data in this column varies depending on what kind of InventoryItem the row represents:
  
  • Cards: A number indicating how many of a particular card a player already owns
    
  • Preconstructed decks: A "YES" or "NO" indicating whether the deck exists in the player's deck list
    
  • Booster/fat packs: A percentage indicating how close a player is to completing the related set. "Complete" means at least one of every basic land and at least 4 of every other card.
  If the player doesn't want this column, it can be turned off in the editor preferences. The sort order for the column is: booster/fat packs (low percentage to high), prebuilt decks not owned, prebuilt decks owned, cards (few owned to many owned).
• "Sell excess cards" button: This button appears above the player's library. Clicking it will sell all cards that are not basic lands until only four copies of the cards remain. It's a one-click "cleanup" of the library and a great way to safely and quickly regain some cash.
• Full catalog view: The button to go to full catalog mode appears to the left of the "Buy Card" button. Toggling this button will switch between showing the store's inventory and the full catalog. By applying a filter to show only a particular set (or group of sets), players can use this view to discover exactly which cards they do not own. Buying and selling cards is disabled while in this view.
• Multibuy: By selecting any number of items and hitting space (or selecting the "Buy Card" or "Sell Card" buttons), a player can buy one of everything selected.