Quest Mode: Guide to Formats, Worlds, and everything

[serrasmurf]

Thanks for the reward update!
My Ravnica world is coming together quite nicely. I got it running with 15 decks, another 35 decks are ready for playtesting

3 questions:
- how can I easily playtest my challenges? I'd like to test the decks, the permanents that start on the battlefield and the rewards. I tried setting Wins=1 in the deckfile, but Forge overrules that and seems to have a minimum of 20 wins for challenges
- will it be possible to have Forge restrict the player to play with cards only from the sets that are defined in the world? If you start in the world all works well. But if you travel to this world after battling for a while in the main world, your deck will quickly be too good. And I don't want to upgrade my ravnica decks with moxes. Starting from scratch makes entering a new world a proper subquest!
I rated my decks assuming you play only with ravnica cards, within ravnica you won't be able to build "very hard" (modern/legay) decks.
- some sweet Ravnica cards are not yet in Forge, any chance of getting them soon? Sunforger, Protean Hulk, Aurelia's Fury

[Chris H.]

- how can I easily playtest my challenges? I'd like to test the decks, the permanents that start on the battlefield and the rewards. I tried setting Wins=1 in the deckfile, but Forge overrules that and seems to have a minimum of 20 wins for challenges

 
There is a dev mode option that allows you to setup a game state. This allows you to open a game state text file which would let you set the starting life and place cards on the battlefield at start of game.

You can do this in a constructed mode game with the AI deck and your deck from the quest mode. This gives a good approximation of how a challenge would play out.

I only used the setup a game state option a couple of times to check it out and have forgotten how to set up the text file. Maybe someone else can get you started.

[myk]

- will it be possible to have Forge restrict the player to play with cards only from the sets that are defined in the world? If you start in the world all works well. But if you travel to this world after battling for a while in the main world, your deck will quickly be too good. And I don't want to upgrade my ravnica decks with moxes. Starting from scratch makes entering a new world a proper subquest!

I am interested in seeing this happen, and I can probably help get it done. I had a few ideas along these lines to make Quest Mode more..."questy" too.

• Quest mechanics
  
  • When starting a quest, the player chooses a home world. A random expansion used by that world is immediately unlocked.
  • Further expansions from that world are unlocked after a pre-determined number of wins +/- x% in that world.
  • When you complete a set (4 of everything), you can unlock a set of your choice from any unlocked world
  • Only cards from sets available in a world are allowed in decks played in that world. Reprints are not allowed. This will force players to get core booster/starter/fat packs in the main world or spell shop for a world they are planning on playing in.
  • Booster packs are awarded for winning a duel. The booster pack awarded is from the choices available in the current world that the player has unlocked
  • In the first world the player enters, the player can choose to unlock the main world instead of an expansion during one of the unlock prompts
  • Dueling in the main world has an x% chance of unlocking a world of the player's choice
  • All Core sets start unlocked, so players play in the main world to get enough cards to travel to a destination world and play there effectively
  • Some worlds do not have any core sets enabled. These necessarily would allow expansion sets that include lands. They can only be played in by first unlocking the land-containing set from some other world that includes that set.
  • Spell shop only carries packs and decks valid in the current world
  • Diminishing returns for using the same cards/colors all the time. Every time a card/color is in a winning deck, its "win count" increases. A deck with cards/colors with a lower win count produces more rewards. This will encourage players to try out new cards and different styles and not just play particular cards all the time. Rewards are greatest when the average win count for the currently used cards is less than avg win count (plus x -- we don't want to start penalizing them right away) for all owned cards overall.
  • All games played for ante at first to increase the stakes (and therefore the fun, hopefully); a bazaar item can be purchased that allows the player to opt to pay 10 times the cost of the card instead of losing the card if a duel is lost. Challenges don't require ante, but are only available periodically, as is the case now.
  • Bazaar items:
    
    • allow (x) ante re-rolls (highest level of this item is the money-instead-of-ante perk described above)
    • more free mulligans
    • most bazaar items should cost more than they do now
    • different worlds have different items available? can be used in only that world? perhaps pets should be per-world so each world start is more difficult. or maybe there is a global set of weaker pets that always stay with you but world-specific pets are more powerful but cannot leave that world.
  • winning in your home world brings in twice as many booster pack rewards as winning elsewhere so quest starts are accelerated
  • duel opponents of all difficulties should always be available. Perhaps the three now displayed could be from differing levels (at various fractions of your current level, times some random factor). This would allow new decks to be tested out on easier opponents before trying them against hard ones.
  • you have a separate level attained for each world that determines the opponents (and reward multiplier) available in that world
• UI
  
  • Deck editor world filters would not show reprints from other sets.
  • Opening the deck editor while in a particular world would have an unremovable world filter for that world. cards in the current deck that do not match the filter would be highlighted in red
  • The quest decks page would have two tabs, Decks valid in current world and All decks

Thoughts? The primary dependency here is the creation of more decks and worlds. I'm sure we could put out a call to our users for contributions, though "professionally" fine tuning them would be a large task in itself. The nice part is that we could add worlds incrementally and slowly expand our quest universe. There would be no restriction that the AI decks strictly follow the rules of the world, so all the current decks could still be used. We would probably want to make sure that the ante card is appropriate, though.

[moomarc]

I think you'll have to be careful about restricting each world like that. The Jamuraa world for instance was made with the hard decks truly difficult, knowing that the quester could travel to other worlds to build up their arsenal of cards if they found it too dificult. So I think that there should rather be a quest world parameter that allows/disables cards from outside of the world's cards. It works flavorfully because in the multiverse, some worlds are similar and you wouldn't 'forget' the spells you know already, and if things got tough you might leave to gain skills and experience elsewhere. But some worlds might have forces that restrict what magics could be used and force you to master what is available.

[RumbleBBU]

Don't have the time for a more elaborate reply right now, just two points...

1) Yes, unlimited Traveling between the worlds can be unbalancing in some ways. I acknowledge this. I originally considered making Travel cost a little but soon rejected that idea. There were numerous reasons why that idea sucked, not going into specifics now.
But there definitely should be a startup option to limit a particular Quest game to a single world. The same way as there is an "Allow unlock" checkbox at the moment, there also should be an "Allow traveling" checkbox. If I had the time, I would add it myself.

2) Myk's ideas - I like them, at least most of them, some of them a lot. But that would radically alter the Quest experience. The way I see it, most of those features should be preference-controlled - or even better, maybe they could, together, constitute a third Quest 'mode' that you can select at startup, the same way as you now can select 'normal' or 'Fantasy' mode.

[edessa]

I agree with almost all your ideas, well to be realistic with all. The items should be more expensive. I also like the idea of different pets according to the world you are, that should add more variety and make the game more interesting, I have an idea, maybe to add to some worlds some permanent unique effects when dueling, similar to emblems, maybe that its a too general idea, when I have something more accurate I will post it so you read ir and tell your opinion. I like as well the idea of having opponents of all the difficulty levels available at all times, because sometimes you want to test a new deck and sometimes the hard and very hard decks are too powerful for your initial deck idea.

[edessa]

Another thought. I believe that most player use the fantasy mode a lot more than the normal mode so I believe that Myk´s ideas could be implemented in the fantasy mode, I dont like too much the Idea of a Third mode of quest. Maybe to travel you could implement somthing like travel points, those points would be different for each world, and free for your homeworld, maybe winning them withe the challenges as part of the bounty or buy them as a very expensive potion or spell in the shop, and receive some of them after some minimum of wins, meybe 50 o 100, and obviosly unlock the world you like to travel. An example may be that Jamuraa cost 325 travel points in order to go there, but also the world should be unlocked by finishing all the challenges of the initial world maybe completing the card list available of that world too. This are just thoughts of my insane mind.... Sorry for the bad english.

[friarsol]

Another thought. I believe that most player use the fantasy mode a lot more than the normal mode so I believe that Myk´s ideas could be implemented in the fantasy mode, I dont like too much the Idea of a Third mode of quest.

Except, I like the way fantasy quest is just fine right now. I think a Planeswalking Quest Mode as a third mode is better than changing the current fantasy quest. I don't understand why a third quest type would be bad. It'd be an easy way to funnel people who want something like this, without removing features we already have for people who don't.

[myk]

Marc: Very good point about Jamuraa. Technically, this could be solved by having each world have two lists: allowed sets and unlockable sets. This would allow for especially difficult worlds like Jamuraa where the player has to go to unlock certain sets. The question is, what can the player /do/ with those sets if they aren't allowed in any other worlds (other than the super hard ones). Maybe there should only be a few worlds the allowed sets and unlockable sets are small and equal, and represent a different sort of challenge rather than the norm...

RumbleBBU: I'd definitely like to hear more about what you've learned so far. No good making the same mistakes twice. I'd think disabling traveling altogether would be /too/ limiting, though, wouldn't it? If a user doesn't want to travel, they currently don't have to. I'm all for making elements preference controlled, or perhaps there can be a tradeoff -- if the user doesn't want to deal with ante, rewards can be reduced by x%, for example. I'm not sure if we have the resources to maintain a completely separate mode, though.

edessa: I had toyed with the idea of world-specific rule changes. It's interesting, but risky, and sounds difficult to implement and keep balanced. Also, we already have something similar in the challenges. However, it is still something I'm open to. Travel points too.

friarsol: What are the qualities of the current quest mode that you like that you would not like changed? Perhaps there is a way to simply extend the gameplay without removing aspects that are already desirable.

Perhaps we could separate the idea list into three categories?

1. implement now in the current quest mode
2. needs discussion, planning, and/or tweaking
3. not a good idea

here's a template for cut and paste:

| Open

Code: Select all

[list=1]
[*][b]implement now in the current quest mode[/b]
[*][b]needs discussion, planning, and/or tweaking[/b]
[*][b]not a good idea[/b]
[/list]

[*]When starting a quest, the player chooses a home world.  A random expansion used by that world is immediately unlocked.
[*]Further expansions from that world are unlocked after a pre-determined number of wins +/- x% in that world.
[*]When you complete a set (4 of everything), you can unlock a set of your choice from any unlocked world
[*]Only cards from sets available in a world are allowed in decks played in that world.  Reprints are not allowed.  This will force players to get core booster/starter/fat packs in the main world or spell shop for a world they are planning on playing in.
[*]Booster packs are awarded for winning a duel.  The booster pack awarded is from the choices available in the current world that the player has unlocked
[*]In the first world the player enters, the player can choose to unlock the main world instead of an expansion during one of the unlock prompts
[*]Dueling in the main world has an x% chance of unlocking a world of the player's choice
[*]All Core sets start unlocked, so players play in the main world to get enough cards to travel to a destination world and play there effectively
[*]Some worlds do not have any core sets enabled.  These necessarily would allow expansion sets that include lands.  They can only be played in by first unlocking the land-containing set from some other world that includes that set.
[*]Spell shop only carries packs and decks valid in the current world
[*]Diminishing returns for using the same cards/colors all the time.  Every time a card/color is in a winning deck, its "win count" increases.  A deck with cards/colors with a lower win count produces more rewards.  This will encourage players to try out new cards and different styles and not just play particular cards all the time.  Rewards are greatest when the average win count for the currently used cards is less than avg win count (plus x -- we don't want to start penalizing them right away) for all owned cards overall.
[*]All games played for ante at first to increase the stakes (and therefore the fun, hopefully); a bazaar item can be purchased that allows the player to opt to pay 10 times the cost of the card instead of losing the card if a duel is lost.  Challenges don't require ante, but are only available periodically, as is the case now.
[*]Bazaar items:
[list]
[*]allow (x) ante re-rolls (highest level of this item is the money-instead-of-ante perk described above)
[*]more free mulligans
[*]most bazaar items should cost more than they do now
[*]different worlds have different items available?  can be used in only that world?  perhaps pets should be per-world so each world start is more difficult.  or maybe there is a global set of weaker pets that always stay with you but world-specific pets are more powerful but cannot leave that world.[/list]
[*]winning in your home world brings in twice as many booster pack rewards as winning elsewhere so quest starts are accelerated
[*]duel opponents of all difficulties should always be available.  Perhaps the three now displayed could be from differing levels (at various fractions of your current level, times some random factor).  This would allow new decks to be tested out on easier opponents before trying them against hard ones.
[*]you have a separate level attained for each world that determines the opponents (and reward multiplier) available in that world
[*]Deck editor world filters would not show reprints from other sets.
[*]Opening the deck editor while in a particular world would have an unremovable world filter for that world.  cards in the current deck that do not match the filter would be highlighted in red
[*]The quest decks page would have two tabs, Decks valid in current world and All decks[/list]
[*]Travel points
[*]World-specific rules (beyond card limits)


[edessa]

Maybe you are right friarsol, it could be implemented as a third mode and let the player to choose, and I believe that title sounds great: Planeswalking quest!

[friarsol]

friarsol: What are the qualities of the current quest mode that you like that you would not like changed? Perhaps there is a way to simply extend the gameplay without removing aspects that are already desirable.

Generally, I like starting with a wider pool and having cards I'm familiar with interact with cards I'm not familiar with. I don't like being restricted with cards I have not being available for a whole world. I definitely disagree with Reprints not being allowed in the certain world. That's like saying I can't use my Revised Serra Angel in Standard, because it isn't the M13 one.

Basically, I think the idea of worlds is cool, but I don't like the hyper-restrictions they enforce, and I don't think they are for me.

[myk]

fair enough. which ideas do you think would enhance the current quest mode?

[friarsol]

fair enough. which ideas do you think would enhance the current quest mode?

I don't have any major needs for enhancements to Quest. You new guys may not realize it, but the Quest Mode has been my playpen for a while now.

[serrasmurf]

friarsol: What are the qualities of the current quest mode that you like that you would not like changed? Perhaps there is a way to simply extend the gameplay without removing aspects that are already desirable.

Generally, I like starting with a wider pool and having cards I'm familiar with interact with cards I'm not familiar with. I don't like being restricted with cards I have not being available for a whole world. I definitely disagree with Reprints not being allowed in the certain world. That's like saying I can't use my Revised Serra Angel in Standard, because it isn't the M13 one.

Basically, I think the idea of worlds is cool, but I don't like the hyper-restrictions they enforce, and I don't think they are for me.

Most ideas are good but will be sophisticated and subtle with the risk of overdevelopment. I think it's better to focus on changes that have the biggest impact and first see how these work out. And to keep it optional. So card restriction in a world should be a preference.

Sometimes you want to explore a world and have a proper tough subquest: you walked down an alley you knew you shouldn't have entered at night and wake up bruised, naked and broke in a strange world; Bourne legacy
I agree with Sol on the reprints though, they should be allowed and gives the user the interesting opportunity to prepare himself for a world

Sometimes you want to enter a world to harvest interesting cards and come up with new decks. The question is how Forge will challenge you to do just that and it is not only the user who decides to restrict himself from using that strong control deck over and over again.
- a solution is that quest worlds have other varying restrictions like in shandalar (dungeon: no artifacts allowed)
- a solution could be that starting "naked" in a world will give you extra rewards, the restriction option mentioned above could then be in-game, and when you agree to start naked you get rewarded with 2 fat packs
- a solution could be the big picture, worlds can then also have tournaments, sometimes being naked makes sense (you're also gonna play drafts and sealed), sometimes you bring you're collection (modern, legacy tournament). Here an earlier post about this:
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1516&p=107768&hilit=vision#p107768

Summarized:
- some simple big changes that you can choose (or not choose)
- someone will someday tie more Forge functionality together (i hope), then all the subtle functionality should not be an obstacle
- when that's done you can completely configure your major (or minor) quest, with some suggested (playtested) configurations, which will need some of the more subtle functionality
- I'm not a developer, professionally I do sometimes initiate development projects, so feel free to state that my ideas are sometimes vague and technically unrealistic, I'm used to it

PS, I expect to submit the first version of my Ravnica World within a week

[myk]

Ok, let's focus the discussion to immediate needs, then. What features are needed for the Ravnica World? Should that particular world be restricted to in-block decks (plus reprints)?