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I'm developing a rules enforcement system, need help

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Re: I'm developing a rules enforcement system, need help

Postby Marek14 » 19 Aug 2009, 09:51

Basically, you need to read Comprehensive Rules before even thinking of developing a system... and once more before you start to actually code :)
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Re: I'm developing a rules enforcement system, need help

Postby Jonix » 19 Aug 2009, 09:55

if Quicksilver Elemental copies Sisters of Stone Death twice, it gets two separate groups of abilities, with cards removed by each one invisible to the other group
If a card should be affected by an effect, it would be treated as if it was affected by parent (card that has this effect).

As you wrote the example, cards removed with gained effects of the Quicksilver Elemental would be treated as removed by Quicksilver Elemental, not by the effect token (since the effect token is a child of the parent card). Therefore, cards removed with Quicksilver Elemental will be "seen" by any group of the abilities, since they will be "looking for" cards removed by their parent.
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Re: I'm developing a rules enforcement system, need help

Postby Snacko » 19 Aug 2009, 10:07

Jonix wrote:
if Quicksilver Elemental copies Sisters of Stone Death twice, it gets two separate groups of abilities, with cards removed by each one invisible to the other group
If a card should be affected by an effect, it would be treated as if it was affected by parent (card that has this effect).

As you wrote the example, cards removed with gained effects of the Quicksilver Elemental would be treated as removed by Quicksilver Elemental, not by the effect token (since the effect token is a child of the parent card). Therefore, cards removed with Quicksilver Elemental will be "seen" by any group of the abilities, since they will be "looking for" cards removed by their parent.
I have to disagree with Marek on this one too as the Quicksilver Elemental will have abilities like:
{B}: Target creature blocks Quicksilver Elemental this turn if able.
{B} {G}: Exile target creature blocking or blocked by Quicksilver Elemental.
{2} {B}: Put a creature card exiled with Quicksilver Elemental onto the battlefield under your control.
{G}: Target creature blocks Quicksilver Elemental this turn if able.
{B} {G}: Exile target creature blocking or blocked by Quicksilver Elemental.
{2} {B}: Put a creature card exiled with Quicksilver Elemental onto the battlefield under your control.
Do you see anything that groups the exiled creatures here ? No it just checks if the creatures were exiled by this card.
The granted abilities effectively use "this permanent," rather than "[that card's name]," so you treat the abilities as if they were printed on Quicksilver Elemental
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Re: I'm developing a rules enforcement system, need help

Postby Marek14 » 19 Aug 2009, 10:26

Snacko wrote:
Jonix wrote:
if Quicksilver Elemental copies Sisters of Stone Death twice, it gets two separate groups of abilities, with cards removed by each one invisible to the other group
If a card should be affected by an effect, it would be treated as if it was affected by parent (card that has this effect).

As you wrote the example, cards removed with gained effects of the Quicksilver Elemental would be treated as removed by Quicksilver Elemental, not by the effect token (since the effect token is a child of the parent card). Therefore, cards removed with Quicksilver Elemental will be "seen" by any group of the abilities, since they will be "looking for" cards removed by their parent.
I have to disagree with Marek on this one too as the Quicksilver Elemental will have abilities like:
{B}: Target creature blocks Quicksilver Elemental this turn if able.
{B} {G}: Exile target creature blocking or blocked by Quicksilver Elemental.
{2} {B}: Put a creature card exiled with Quicksilver Elemental onto the battlefield under your control.
{G}: Target creature blocks Quicksilver Elemental this turn if able.
{B} {G}: Exile target creature blocking or blocked by Quicksilver Elemental.
{2} {B}: Put a creature card exiled with Quicksilver Elemental onto the battlefield under your control.
Do you see anything that groups the exiled creatures here ? No it just checks if the creatures were exiled by this card.
The granted abilities effectively use "this permanent," rather than "[that card's name]," so you treat the abilities as if they were printed on Quicksilver Elemental
606.4. If an object acquires a pair of linked abilities as part of the same effect, the abilities will be similarly linked to one another on that object even though they weren’t printed on that object. They can’t be linked to any other ability, regardless of what other abilities the object may currently have or may have had in the past.
Example: Arc-Slogger has the ability “{R}: Exile the top ten cards of your library: Arc-Slogger deals 2 damage to target creature or player.” Sisters of Stone Death has the ability “{B}{G}: Exile target creature blocking or blocked by Sisters of Stone Death” and the ability “{2}{B}: Put a creature card exiled with Sisters of Stone Death onto the battlefield under your control.” Quicksilver Elemental has the ability “{U}: Quicksilver Elemental gains all activated abilities of target creature until end of turn.” If a player has Quicksilver Elemental gain Arc-Slogger’s ability, activates it, then has Quicksilver Elemental gain Sisters of Stone Death’s abilities, activates the exile ability, and then activates the return-to-the-battlefield ability, only the creature card Quicksilver Elemental exiled with Sisters of Stone Death’s ability can be returned to the battlefield. Creature cards Quicksilver Elemental exiled with Arc-Slogger’s ability can’t be returned.
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Re: I'm developing a rules enforcement system, need help

Postby Snacko » 19 Aug 2009, 10:33

I still don't see how those abilities are linked as they don't reference each other just a generic if (but it seems if a card references the same mechanic it means linked to wizards), but if the ruling say so.

This sums up your previous comment there's no logical thinking just brutal rules and you need to know comprehensive rules in and out :)
Last edited by Snacko on 19 Aug 2009, 10:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I'm developing a rules enforcement system, need help

Postby Jonix » 19 Aug 2009, 10:36

What do you think of this:

Let's say Accursed Centaur enters the battlefield, and there are no creature cards on your side of the battlefield. Rule 608.3 states:
Code: Select all
608.3. If an effect attempts to do something impossible, it does only as much as possible.
Example: If a player is holding only one card, an effect that reads “Discard two cards” causes him or her to discard only that card. If an effect moves cards out of the library (as opposed to drawing), it moves as many as possible.
I am not sure about this effect. It definetely requires a target, but since there are no valid targets, it shouldn't be resolved. It shouldn't be a problem when we speak of a system, like mine, but it might be a pain when it comes to real implementation.
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Re: I'm developing a rules enforcement system, need help

Postby Marek14 » 19 Aug 2009, 10:40

Jonix wrote:What do you think of this:

Let's say Accursed Centaur enters the battlefield, and there are no creature cards on your side of the battlefield. Rule 608.3 states:
Code: Select all
608.3. If an effect attempts to do something impossible, it does only as much as possible.
Example: If a player is holding only one card, an effect that reads “Discard two cards” causes him or her to discard only that card. If an effect moves cards out of the library (as opposed to drawing), it moves as many as possible.
I am not sure about this effect. It definetely requires a target, but since there are no valid targets, it shouldn't be resolved. It shouldn't be a problem when we speak of a system, like mine, but it might be a pain when it comes to real implementation.
No, the effect doesn't use the word "target", so it definitely does NOT require a target. The choice of creature to be sacrificed happens upon resolution of the triggered ability. If you don't have any other creature, you have to sacrifice Accursed Centaur itself. If you don't have any creature at all (you sacrificed Centaur to Ashnod's Altar with the ability on stack, say), the sacrifice is impossible, and will not be performed.
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Re: I'm developing a rules enforcement system, need help

Postby Jonix » 19 Aug 2009, 10:43

Creature cards Quicksilver Elemental exiled with Arc-Slogger’s ability can’t be returned.
Yes, they can. Ability copied from Sisters of Stone Death says: Put a creature card exiled with Quicksilver Elemental onto the battlefield under your control. That means that any creature exiled by Quicksilver Elemental can be brought back, not only the exiled by a particular effect.
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Re: I'm developing a rules enforcement system, need help

Postby Marek14 » 19 Aug 2009, 10:46

Jonix wrote:
Creature cards Quicksilver Elemental exiled with Arc-Slogger’s ability can’t be returned.
Yes, they can. Ability copied from Sisters of Stone Death says: Put a creature card exiled with Quicksilver Elemental onto the battlefield under your control. That means that any creature exiled by Quicksilver Elemental can be brought back, not only the exiled by a particular effect.
Sorry. That was rules quote. The rules specifically say that "exiled by ~this~" has more specific meaning that only works in the context of a particular group of abilities.
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Re: I'm developing a rules enforcement system, need help

Postby Snacko » 19 Aug 2009, 10:47

Unfortunately it doesn't work like you think, it was described earlier by Marek read rule 606.4 + Example which was pasted.
Sisters of Stone Death is considered linked ability.

Ah the joy of learning some new rules :)
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Re: I'm developing a rules enforcement system, need help

Postby Jonix » 19 Aug 2009, 10:47

Marek14 wrote:No, the effect doesn't use the word "target", so it definitely does NOT require a target. The choice of creature to be sacrificed happens upon resolution of the triggered ability. If you don't have any other creature, you have to sacrifice Accursed Centaur itself. If you don't have any creature at all (you sacrificed Centaur to Ashnod's Altar with the ability on stack, say), the sacrifice is impossible, and will not be performed.
I see... The reason I asked, is because Manalink 2.0 had the exact problem (not with Accursed Minotaur, but with a similar creature).
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Re: I'm developing a rules enforcement system, need help

Postby Marek14 » 19 Aug 2009, 10:54

Jonix wrote:
Marek14 wrote:No, the effect doesn't use the word "target", so it definitely does NOT require a target. The choice of creature to be sacrificed happens upon resolution of the triggered ability. If you don't have any other creature, you have to sacrifice Accursed Centaur itself. If you don't have any creature at all (you sacrificed Centaur to Ashnod's Altar with the ability on stack, say), the sacrifice is impossible, and will not be performed.
I see... The reason I asked, is because Manalink 2.0 had the exact problem (not with Accursed Minotaur, but with a similar creature).
Manalink is not a very good example, as it's basically built on pre-6th Edition rules architecture. It still has interrupts, and it generally treats triggered abilities without stack, which is long obsolete.

In short, as it's a legacy system, it doesn't mimic the rules precisely, and probably can't be made to do so without complete reworking from scratch.
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Re: I'm developing a rules enforcement system, need help

Postby Jonix » 19 Aug 2009, 11:00

I understand. What I was asking is whether this is hard to implement with code or not. Implementing CompRules in the system is only one side of the coin :)
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Re: I'm developing a rules enforcement system, need help

Postby Jonix » 19 Aug 2009, 11:06

Snacko wrote:Unfortunately it doesn't work like you think, it was described earlier by Marek read rule 606.4 + Example which was pasted.
Sisters of Stone Death is considered linked ability.

Ah the joy of learning some new rules :)
Ok, are there any benefits from having 2 or more copies of the same groups of abilities? Copying twice abilities of Sisters of Stone Death makes no actual sense, since a sane person would only use 1 copy of the abilities, so that it won't make a disadvantage for them.
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Re: I'm developing a rules enforcement system, need help

Postby Marek14 » 19 Aug 2009, 11:09

Jonix wrote:
Snacko wrote:Unfortunately it doesn't work like you think, it was described earlier by Marek read rule 606.4 + Example which was pasted.
Sisters of Stone Death is considered linked ability.

Ah the joy of learning some new rules :)
Ok, are there any benefits from having 2 or more copies of the same groups of abilities? Copying twice abilities of Sisters of Stone Death makes no actual sense, since a sane person would only use 1 copy of the abilities, so that it won't make a disadvantage for them.
Because of the existence of Mindslaver, you cannot limit yourself to "sane" examples.

As for the Accursed Centaur ability, it can be done quite easily. Incantus supports it perfectly.
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