Re: I'm developing a rules enforcement system, need help
Posted: 19 Aug 2009, 09:51
Basically, you need to read Comprehensive Rules before even thinking of developing a system... and once more before you start to actually code
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If a card should be affected by an effect, it would be treated as if it was affected by parent (card that has this effect).if Quicksilver Elemental copies Sisters of Stone Death twice, it gets two separate groups of abilities, with cards removed by each one invisible to the other group
I have to disagree with Marek on this one too as the Quicksilver Elemental will have abilities like:Jonix wrote:If a card should be affected by an effect, it would be treated as if it was affected by parent (card that has this effect).if Quicksilver Elemental copies Sisters of Stone Death twice, it gets two separate groups of abilities, with cards removed by each one invisible to the other group
As you wrote the example, cards removed with gained effects of the Quicksilver Elemental would be treated as removed by Quicksilver Elemental, not by the effect token (since the effect token is a child of the parent card). Therefore, cards removed with Quicksilver Elemental will be "seen" by any group of the abilities, since they will be "looking for" cards removed by their parent.
Do you see anything that groups the exiled creatures here ? No it just checks if the creatures were exiled by this card.: Target creature blocks Quicksilver Elemental this turn if able.
: Exile target creature blocking or blocked by Quicksilver Elemental.
: Put a creature card exiled with Quicksilver Elemental onto the battlefield under your control.
: Target creature blocks Quicksilver Elemental this turn if able.
: Exile target creature blocking or blocked by Quicksilver Elemental.
: Put a creature card exiled with Quicksilver Elemental onto the battlefield under your control.
The granted abilities effectively use "this permanent," rather than "[that card's name]," so you treat the abilities as if they were printed on Quicksilver Elemental
606.4. If an object acquires a pair of linked abilities as part of the same effect, the abilities will be similarly linked to one another on that object even though they weren’t printed on that object. They can’t be linked to any other ability, regardless of what other abilities the object may currently have or may have had in the past.Snacko wrote:I have to disagree with Marek on this one too as the Quicksilver Elemental will have abilities like:Jonix wrote:If a card should be affected by an effect, it would be treated as if it was affected by parent (card that has this effect).if Quicksilver Elemental copies Sisters of Stone Death twice, it gets two separate groups of abilities, with cards removed by each one invisible to the other group
As you wrote the example, cards removed with gained effects of the Quicksilver Elemental would be treated as removed by Quicksilver Elemental, not by the effect token (since the effect token is a child of the parent card). Therefore, cards removed with Quicksilver Elemental will be "seen" by any group of the abilities, since they will be "looking for" cards removed by their parent.Do you see anything that groups the exiled creatures here ? No it just checks if the creatures were exiled by this card.: Target creature blocks Quicksilver Elemental this turn if able.
: Exile target creature blocking or blocked by Quicksilver Elemental.
: Put a creature card exiled with Quicksilver Elemental onto the battlefield under your control.
: Target creature blocks Quicksilver Elemental this turn if able.
: Exile target creature blocking or blocked by Quicksilver Elemental.
: Put a creature card exiled with Quicksilver Elemental onto the battlefield under your control.The granted abilities effectively use "this permanent," rather than "[that card's name]," so you treat the abilities as if they were printed on Quicksilver Elemental
608.3. If an effect attempts to do something impossible, it does only as much as possible.
Example: If a player is holding only one card, an effect that reads “Discard two cards” causes him or her to discard only that card. If an effect moves cards out of the library (as opposed to drawing), it moves as many as possible.
No, the effect doesn't use the word "target", so it definitely does NOT require a target. The choice of creature to be sacrificed happens upon resolution of the triggered ability. If you don't have any other creature, you have to sacrifice Accursed Centaur itself. If you don't have any creature at all (you sacrificed Centaur to Ashnod's Altar with the ability on stack, say), the sacrifice is impossible, and will not be performed.Jonix wrote:What do you think of this:
Let's say Accursed Centaur enters the battlefield, and there are no creature cards on your side of the battlefield. Rule 608.3 states:I am not sure about this effect. It definetely requires a target, but since there are no valid targets, it shouldn't be resolved. It shouldn't be a problem when we speak of a system, like mine, but it might be a pain when it comes to real implementation.
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608.3. If an effect attempts to do something impossible, it does only as much as possible.
Example: If a player is holding only one card, an effect that reads “Discard two cards” causes him or her to discard only that card. If an effect moves cards out of the library (as opposed to drawing), it moves as many as possible.
Yes, they can. Ability copied from Sisters of Stone Death says: Put a creature card exiled with Quicksilver Elemental onto the battlefield under your control. That means that any creature exiled by Quicksilver Elemental can be brought back, not only the exiled by a particular effect.Creature cards Quicksilver Elemental exiled with Arc-Slogger’s ability can’t be returned.
Sorry. That was rules quote. The rules specifically say that "exiled by ~this~" has more specific meaning that only works in the context of a particular group of abilities.Jonix wrote:Yes, they can. Ability copied from Sisters of Stone Death says: Put a creature card exiled with Quicksilver Elemental onto the battlefield under your control. That means that any creature exiled by Quicksilver Elemental can be brought back, not only the exiled by a particular effect.Creature cards Quicksilver Elemental exiled with Arc-Slogger’s ability can’t be returned.
I see... The reason I asked, is because Manalink 2.0 had the exact problem (not with Accursed Minotaur, but with a similar creature).Marek14 wrote:No, the effect doesn't use the word "target", so it definitely does NOT require a target. The choice of creature to be sacrificed happens upon resolution of the triggered ability. If you don't have any other creature, you have to sacrifice Accursed Centaur itself. If you don't have any creature at all (you sacrificed Centaur to Ashnod's Altar with the ability on stack, say), the sacrifice is impossible, and will not be performed.
Manalink is not a very good example, as it's basically built on pre-6th Edition rules architecture. It still has interrupts, and it generally treats triggered abilities without stack, which is long obsolete.Jonix wrote:I see... The reason I asked, is because Manalink 2.0 had the exact problem (not with Accursed Minotaur, but with a similar creature).Marek14 wrote:No, the effect doesn't use the word "target", so it definitely does NOT require a target. The choice of creature to be sacrificed happens upon resolution of the triggered ability. If you don't have any other creature, you have to sacrifice Accursed Centaur itself. If you don't have any creature at all (you sacrificed Centaur to Ashnod's Altar with the ability on stack, say), the sacrifice is impossible, and will not be performed.
Ok, are there any benefits from having 2 or more copies of the same groups of abilities? Copying twice abilities of Sisters of Stone Death makes no actual sense, since a sane person would only use 1 copy of the abilities, so that it won't make a disadvantage for them.Snacko wrote:Unfortunately it doesn't work like you think, it was described earlier by Marek read rule 606.4 + Example which was pasted.
Sisters of Stone Death is considered linked ability.
Ah the joy of learning some new rules
Because of the existence of Mindslaver, you cannot limit yourself to "sane" examples.Jonix wrote:Ok, are there any benefits from having 2 or more copies of the same groups of abilities? Copying twice abilities of Sisters of Stone Death makes no actual sense, since a sane person would only use 1 copy of the abilities, so that it won't make a disadvantage for them.Snacko wrote:Unfortunately it doesn't work like you think, it was described earlier by Marek read rule 606.4 + Example which was pasted.
Sisters of Stone Death is considered linked ability.
Ah the joy of learning some new rules