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MTG Engine compare

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Re: MTG Engine compare

Postby Marek14 » 30 Dec 2009, 19:17

mtgrares wrote:AI is just an illusion like special effects in a movie. AIs are very fragile.
Yes. The question is: Is there a clear-cut line between illusion and reality?

(As it would happen, there is. It is the space separating spells on the split card Illusion//Reality.)
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Re: MTG Engine compare

Postby frwololo » 31 Dec 2009, 01:22

I was expecting someone to come up with a comparison for Wagic at some point, but in the end I'll give my biased description, in the same format as the original post. Feel free to comment.

Wagic:
Speed: Very fast. (designed to run without lag on a 300MHz machine with 32MB of Ram)
Number of cards: Large.
Stability: Good. A few crashes on specific cards
AI Level: Not so good, but this is balanced by the fact that the AI has well constructed decks.
Rules implementation: Pretty good. Lots of approximations, but supports lots of mechanics of the game
Updates: Frequent (daily updates in the SVN, and updates of the "official" release every 2 months or so).
Gimmicks: Task mode, Momir Basic, Credits system, Customizable Themes.
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Re: MTG Engine compare

Postby Huggybaby » 31 Dec 2009, 01:39

I'm afraid anyone who would have been able to make a comparison is already over at your own (very nice and successful) forum. :)

Wagic is awesome, I've said before I wish I had a PSP just so I could play it.
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Re: MTG Engine compare

Postby frwololo » 31 Dec 2009, 05:27

The Wagic forum is good to discuss Wagic, but slightlymagic is way better to get ideas from all the wonderful projects discussed here :)
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Re: MTG Engine compare

Postby mtgrares » 31 Dec 2009, 16:58

Marek14 wrote:Yes. The question is: Is there a clear-cut line between illusion and reality?
(As it would happen, there is. It is the space separating spells on the split card Illusion//Reality.)
Ha, I think I need some water because that joke was so dry. :supz:
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Re: MTG Engine compare

Postby mtgrares » 31 Dec 2009, 17:02

frwololo,

What is your task system?

I would love to add some sort of achievement system that gives the player a goal for each game like "Attack with 3 creatures" or "Win with only 1 life". Virtual Figther 4: Evolution for PS2 has this and it is absoluately awesome. VF4 also has a great quest system that makes you fight through 20 or so "arcades" that have different level of opponents. At first the opponents are easy but they they get harder. VF4 is great just because it has 1,000 or so AI opponents. I have no idea how they came up with so many different types of opponents.
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Re: MTG Engine compare

Postby frwololo » 01 Jan 2010, 02:03

The Task system is pretty much that. It won't prevent you to win in a "standard" way, but it rewards you with more credits if you accomplish the tasks.

So, for example, if the task is "bury at least 20 red cards to your opponent's graveyard for 200 credits", it means that for your next match, you have to get an opponent with red cards, and make sure you "don't win too fast" in order to be able to have 20 red cards in the AIs graveyard when you win.
Other tasks involve "Reach immortality (1000 life)", (which basically requires you to play with Beacon of Immortality, I don't know any better way), or simply "Defeat deck A before turn 15", or the opposite "Defeat deck B after delaying it for at least 30 turns", stuff like that.

Currently the system is extremely simple and just looks at the state of the game once the game is over (and compare it to the goals of whatever tasks are current). But it could be doable to add statistics in the game, to make sure that the player never attacked with more than 3 creatures, or things like that. Which could achieve what you are looking for.

I see no technical issue to add that kind of feature in Forge, but one "gameplay" issue: Wagic has a credit system, one has to unlock and "buy" the cards before they can add it to their decks. So rewarding with credits is an easy way to do it. But in Forge, what would be the reward for completing the tasks?

Here's a screenshot that says more about the tasks:
Image
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Re: MTG Engine compare

Postby Marek14 » 01 Jan 2010, 08:45

frwololo wrote:Other tasks involve "Reach immortality (1000 life)", (which basically requires you to play with Beacon of Immortality, I don't know any better way), or simply "Defeat deck A before turn 15", or the opposite "Defeat deck B after delaying it for at least 30 turns", stuff like that.
Image
Well, maybe better than Beacon of Immortality would be Celestial Mantle...
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Re: MTG Engine compare

Postby frwololo » 01 Jan 2010, 14:21

Wagic doesn't handle that card yet, but indeed, that's a good idea :D
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Re: MTG Engine compare

Postby silly freak » 02 Jan 2010, 10:33

the quest mode would be a choice in forge... there's a card reward every few matches, so extra cards are a good bonus for the quests

edit: this reminds me a little of the tasks in the pinball that shipped with Win XP: in the beginning, you just had to do one thing a number of times, then tasks would grow to more that one thing to do in a specific order. a task could go for more than one game, maybe?
___

where's the "trust me, that will work!" switch for the compiler?
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Re: MTG Engine compare

Postby zerker2000 » 25 Jan 2010, 01:39

mtgrares wrote:On the most basic level a computer can only add 2 numbers and compare 2 numbers.
Which isn't too shabby compared to the "basic level" electrochemical processes between neurons in the human brain. And considering the number of those doesn't improve noticeably over generations, it is only a matter of time before "really fast calculators" surpass our complexity(see Moore's Law).
silly freak wrote:[...]a genious web comic
Agreed.
Marek14 wrote:
frwololo wrote:Other tasks involve "Reach immortality (1000 life)", (which basically requires you to play with Beacon of Immortality, I don't know any better way)[...]
Well, maybe better than Beacon of Immortality would be Celestial Mantle...
or a double Armadillo Cloak -ed (or otherwise lifelinked) Ajani Goldmane Avatar token(which could also work for the "hit to -19 life" task :)), or (a faster, incompatible approach) an Eternity Vessel, Gilder Bairn, and enough elves and land to generate the 36 mana over four or five turns. Or 18 saprolings and Ashnod's Altar, or...something else green. Alternatively you could go blue and e.g. Ashnod's Coupon a Paradise Mantle equipped Gilder Bairn, enchant it with Power Artifact. I hve no idea whether any/all of the above cards are in Wagic, but the last combo is probably as fast as you're going to get(though I do know there are a lot of insane life combos in Type 1).
O forest, hold thy wand'ring son
Though fears assail the door.
O foliage, cloak thy ravaged one
In vestments cut for war.


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Re: MTG Engine compare

Postby princealway » 11 Aug 2010, 18:20

You have given agood information and I like the article I have not tried yet all these comments and your BotArena like something I would like.In my opinion one of the best tricks to MTGForge is the ability to write. One of my favorite Magic format and I often fire up MTGForge for this reason.
Life is either a daring adventure or nothing.
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Re: MTG Engine compare

Postby Marek14 » 12 Aug 2010, 06:33

I think one of the hardest tasks would be this:

"Make your opponent lose to Lich."

Lich has a triggered ability that makes a player lose the game if it leaves the battlefield... but it also sets your life to 0 and stops lifegain, so you normally die to lethal damage if it leaves the battlefield.
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Re: MTG Engine compare

Postby MageKing17 » 12 Aug 2010, 19:10

Marek14 wrote:I think one of the hardest tasks would be this:

"Make your opponent lose to Lich."

Lich has a triggered ability that makes a player lose the game if it leaves the battlefield... but it also sets your life to 0 and stops lifegain, so you normally die to lethal damage if it leaves the battlefield.
The only way to do it is to remove the possibility of losing the game due to having zero life... so you'll have to do something like gift them a Lich's Tomb or a Soul Echo or a Transcendence just so you can Disenchant their Lich.
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Re: MTG Engine compare

Postby juzamjedi » 17 Aug 2010, 14:05

Can't I just cast Nature's Claim on the Lich and defeat that task? Seems simple enough.
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