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Hi,

Need your help with mtg rules regarding last known information.
I'm confused about two lines in the rules:

If an effect requires information from the game (such as the number of creatures on the battlefield), the answer is determined only once, when the effect is applied.

And

If the effect requires information from a specific object, including the source of the ability itself or a target that's become illegal, the effect uses the current information of that object if it's in the public zone it was expected to be in; if it's no longer in that zone, or if the effect has moved it from a public zone to a hidden zone, the effect uses the object's last known information.

Let say I have a card "Put a -1\-1 counter on target creature. You gain life equal to its power" that targets 2\2. Will I gain 1 life as it becomes 1\1 when first part of the effect is applied? Or should I gain 2 lifes as it counts the object state before effect was applied?

Second part

if the effect has moved it from a public zone to a hidden zone, the effect uses the object's last known information.

I have Glorious Anthem and 2\2 creature that is 3\3 because of anthem. I play "Return target card to its owner hands. You gain life equal to its power.".
As it is returned to hidden zone (hand), I will gain 3 lifes, right?

And if a card would say "Destroy target creature. You gain life equal to its power", so it goes to graveyard (public zone), this time I will gain only 2 lifes, not 3, right?

"Put a -1\-1 counter on target creature. You gain life equal to its power."

these are two separate effects of the same spell, so you gain only one life (determined when the second part is applied)

in both other cases, you gain 3 life:

if it's in the public zone it was expected to be in; if it's no longer in that zone, or if the effect has moved it from a public zone to a hidden zone, the effect uses the object's last known information.

the expected zone is the battlefield, because the target was on the battlefield. thus LKI is used.


I hope I'm right with this; confirmation is appreciated!

silly freak wrote:

"Put a -1\-1 counter on target creature. You gain life equal to its power."

these are two separate effects of the same spell, so you gain only one life (determined when the second part is applied)

As was explained to me on the rules channel, each sentence should be considered a separate effect (so they happen consecutively). If they weren't separate sentences (ie "put a -1\-1 counter on target creature and gain life equal to its power") then it would be considered one effect and happen simultaneously (so you would gain 2 life).

silly freak wrote:in both other cases, you gain 3 life:

if it's in the public zone it was expected to be in; if it's no longer in that zone, or if the effect has moved it from a public zone to a hidden zone, the effect uses the object's last known information.

the expected zone is the battlefield, because the target was on the battlefield. thus LKI is used.

I hope I'm right with this; confirmation is appreciated!

Yes, this is correct. In both cases, the life gain refers to the targeted creature on the battlefield, and since it is no longer on the battlefield you must use LKI to access the power it had on the battlefield (so you gain 3 life in both cases).

Incantus wrote:

silly freak wrote:

"Put a -1\-1 counter on target creature. You gain life equal to its power."

these are two separate effects of the same spell, so you gain only one life (determined when the second part is applied)

As was explained to me on the rules channel, each sentence should be considered a separate effect (so they happen consecutively). If they weren't separate sentences (ie "put a -1\-1 counter on target creature and gain life equal to its power") then it would be considered one effect and happen simultaneously (so you would gain 2 life).

Sorry, but that's wrong. Whether or not they're part of the same sentence is irrelevant; they always happen consecutively. The only way for them to happen simultaneously is for the word "simultaneously" to be used (as in "Put a -1/-1 counter on target creature and simultaneously gain life equal to its power"), but that's a very silly effect.

so the question that is still opened. Is there any difference in effects applied with and without "and". are they both happen consecutively?

nantuko84 wrote:so the question that is still opened. Is there any difference in effects applied with and without "and". are they both happen consecutively?

99% of the time, there is no difference and they always happen consecutively.

ok!
and thanks, guys, for your help! was really helpful.