It is currently 17 Aug 2018, 22:43
   
Text Size

Several rules/combo questions

Anything that doesn't belong elsewhere goes here...

Moderator: CCGHQ Admins

Several rules/combo questions

Postby SolipsismSyndrome » 01 Apr 2012, 23:49

Maybe I'm just retarded and couldn't find the forum where these types of questions should be asked, but since this is the "miscellaneous crap" subforum, I figured I should be safe.

Anyway, I've been playing around with some ideas and I have a few questions that weren't addressed on the Gatherer. If anyone has definitive answers, that'd be awesome. I may come back in and throw extra questions down as well, because I'm sifting through a lot of concepts to work with.

So my first question, and I'm pretty sure the answer is 'no': Does Animar, Soul of Elements put a +1/+1 counter on himself? I'm thinking that his ability triggers and resolves before he actually ETBs, meaning he can't receive a +1/+1 counter, but if someone could back me up (or refute me) on that, I'd be happier.

Second: I have Aluren and Confusion in the Ranks in play, and Cavern Harpy in my hand. Could I cast Cavern Harpy for free using Aluren, exchange Cavern Harpy for an opponent's creature using the effect of Confusion in the Ranks, bounce Cavern Harpy using its own first ability, then rinse and repeat to steal all my opponent's creatures? This one is kind of convoluted...

Third: I have two Knight Exemplar s on the battlefield, and my opponent has no Knights. I cast Knight of the Mists. Since paying its mana cost is optional and there are no Knights that can be destroyed, is his ETB ability essentially negated? This one seems kind of obvious to me, but I wanted to make sure.

Fourth: Lethal Vapors is on the battlefield. I cast Cavern Harpy. Is Cavern Harpy destroyed, or can I use its own ability to bounce itself before Lethal Vapors' effect resolves? Since both of these effects are ETB effects, I'm not sure how to determine which one gets put on the stack first.
User avatar
SolipsismSyndrome
 
Posts: 6
Joined: 01 Mar 2012, 01:59
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 0 time

Re: Several rules/combo questions

Postby silly freak » 02 Apr 2012, 19:35

Okay, first let me say that while you're surely fine here, some better places would be http://draw3cards.com/ or http://boardgames.stackexchange.com/ - they're dedicated Q&A sites for Magic and Bord & Cardgames respectively.

So, first question: Definitely no. The ability is active while Animar is on the Battlefield, but triggers from casting spells. Animar is long not a spell anymore when the ability is active.

Second: Yes, this should work, although I'm not entirely sure. There are three important points: firstly, is the creature recognized after changing control? I think so; last known information is only used when changing zones, so the effect should find the creature. Secondly, is the "you control" part enforced on resolution, or when the ability triggers? I think that with targets, both happens; here I'm not sure, but I think to recall that such choices are moade on resolution: since you don't control the Harpy then, it won't work. But now the third point: does the exchange of control work when one of the creatures has disappeared? I think so, but I'm not really sure either. So the right way would be to cast the Harpy, stack the CitR effect, stack the Harpy effect, return the Harpy to your hand, and exchange/gain control of the creature.

Third: Yes, you simply target one knight, and it won't be destroyed as a result. By the way one Exemplar is enough, because Knight of the Mists is a legal, indestructible target, too.

Fourth: It depends. Multiple triggers are put onto the stack in APNAP (Active Player, Non-Active Player) order. For Effects of the same player, it's his/her choice. If you control both Lethal Vapors and Cavern Harpy, you therefore have the choice. If it's your opponent's Vapors and your turn, the AP effect (return to hand) is stacked first, then the NAP effect, and they resolve in reverse order and the Harpy is destroyed. If it's your opponent's turn (Aluren again), it's the other way round and return to hand resolves first.

I hope I helped and hope to be corrected/reassured ;)
___

where's the "trust me, that will work!" switch for the compiler?
Laterna Magica - blog, forum, project, 2010/09/06 release!
silly freak
DEVELOPER
 
Posts: 598
Joined: 26 Mar 2009, 07:18
Location: Vienna, Austria
Has thanked: 92 times
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: Several rules/combo questions

Postby SolipsismSyndrome » 04 Apr 2012, 21:01

I'm pretty sure you're right on 1, 3 and 4, and I was considering the priority of the active player on number four, but wasn't sure if it applied here.

You sound uncertain about number two, for which I don't blame you, so hopefully someone else can put their two cents in. :p

Specifically on Number 3, I included two Knight Exemplars to have all the Knights be indestructible, not just Knight of the Mists. I assumed that would be necessary, because wouldn't an indestructible creature be an illegal target for a targeted destroy effect? I mean obviously it wouldn't be destroyed either way, but I figured it was illegal to even target it with the effect. Not that it would matter except in really nitpicky situations, but still, I like to be the guy who knows exactly how stuff works, down to the minor details. :p
User avatar
SolipsismSyndrome
 
Posts: 6
Joined: 01 Mar 2012, 01:59
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 0 time

Re: Several rules/combo questions

Postby silly freak » 05 Apr 2012, 15:04

I don't want to look the rules up on my phone, but I think that indestructible only replaces the destruction event with nothing and has nothing to do with targeting, as opposed to, say, protection.

and you're right, I'm pretty unsure on the second; better check that further.

edit: looked it up, seems all right. there's nothing about targets in the indestructible rule.
___

where's the "trust me, that will work!" switch for the compiler?
Laterna Magica - blog, forum, project, 2010/09/06 release!
silly freak
DEVELOPER
 
Posts: 598
Joined: 26 Mar 2009, 07:18
Location: Vienna, Austria
Has thanked: 92 times
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: Several rules/combo questions

Postby Snacko » 15 Apr 2012, 17:11

A bit late but Confusion in the Ranks in the rulings from 12/1/2004 it says:
The permanents are exchanged only if they're both on the battlefield when the ability resolves.
So the 2nd case won't work.
Snacko
DEVELOPER
 
Posts: 826
Joined: 29 May 2008, 19:35
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 73 times

Re: Several rules/combo questions

Postby SolipsismSyndrome » 26 Apr 2012, 09:21

Snacko, that doesn't really come into play here, since the way I described it above, Cavern Harpy would be on the field. Unless Confusion in the Ranks' activated ability necessarily goes on the stack before, and thus resolves after, Cavern Harpy's ETB ability. If they went on the stack in the opposite order, then Cavern Harpy's ability would go on the stack, then Confusion, so Confusion would resolve, and you'd exchange the creatures. Actually, now that I think it through, if you own both permanents, and both abilities have the same trigger, don't you choose what order to put them on the stack? So you put Harpy's ability on the stack first, then Confusion. Confusion resolves first, you exchange creatures. The real question is, at that point, does your opponent now control Cavern Harpy's ability? In which case, if he or she has blue or black creatures, he or she could return one of those creatures to his or her hand and thus keep Cavern Harpy. If there were no other legal blue or black creatures to target, I suppose the Harpy would have to go back to your hand, even if your opponent controlled and thus chose targets for the ability. I think that's a pretty solid way to look at it... But then, I'm not an official. :p

A simpler question, but one I wasn't able to answer with the rulebook: Is it possible to counter an activated ability for which the cost includes sacrificing its source, by destroying the permanent? I'm thinking no, but I'm praying for someone to tell me otherwise. Specifically I'm looking for a way to deal with Ratchet Bomb without counterspells. I've been playing BW Tokens recently, and while this or that deck build may give me trouble, the only single card that haunts my dreams is Ratchet Bomb. I don't believe I can counter it without splashing another color, and once it's on the field, there's nothing I can think of to stop it from destroying all my tokens in one fell swoop. I doubt I have to explain this, but simple removal isn't good enough, because even if I try to Oblivion Ring it, all my opponent has to do is tap it in response to the Ring and poof, all my tokens are gone, plus my Oblivion Ring suddenly has no target and becomes a useless enchantment.

My first idea was a destroy/exile instant, to be cast in response to my opponent activating the Bomb's ability, but I'm not sure what part of activating its ability can be responded to, since sacrificing it is part of the cost. Can I respond to my opponent tapping the Bomb before it is sacrificed (since the full cost to activate it is to tap it and then sacrifice it)?

To summarize, I was just hoping someone could shed some light on how (if possible) to deal with abilities that require the source to be sacrificed as part of the cost, without simply countering the ability (since I don't think anything currently in standard counters abilities, though I could be wrong).

Edited to add:
Actually, if there's a list of actions or events to which a player can respond, that'd be awesome, because I'm not finding that in the rulebook.

Edited again: Unless Avacyn Restored surprises me, it looks like Divine Offering is my only option for now, should it work in the first place.
User avatar
SolipsismSyndrome
 
Posts: 6
Joined: 01 Mar 2012, 01:59
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 0 time

Re: Several rules/combo questions

Postby Snacko » 02 May 2012, 21:16

Either you put confusion first and you got no harpy or you put harpy ability first and you no longer control it so the ability does null. Doesn't work either way. (Rule 112.7a - you check information when it resolves).

2nd question:
the sacrifice is part of cost - this means you get no priority to react to it. You need something that counters activated abilities like Stifle. If there's something with destroy + split second it could work too (ex. Krosan Grip).

There is nothing in the rules about "repsonding". There are only rules about getting priority to act.
You can read 116. Timing and Priority chapter to understand this concept.

I looked at T2 cards and there does't seem any card to counter or deal with Ratchet Bomb on the field.
Snacko
DEVELOPER
 
Posts: 826
Joined: 29 May 2008, 19:35
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 73 times

Re: Several rules/combo questions

Postby tentionfree » 21 Jan 2013, 12:15

SolipsismSyndrome wrote:Snacko, that doesn't really come into play here, since the way I described it above, Cavern Harpy would be on the field. Unless Confusion in the Ranks' activated ability necessarily goes on the stack before, and thus resolves after, Cavern Harpy's ETB ability. If they went on the stack in the opposite order, then Cavern Harpy's ability would go on the stack, then Confusion, so Confusion would resolve, and you'd exchange the creatures. Actually, now that I think it through, if you own both permanents, and both abilities have the same trigger, don't you choose what order to put them on the stack? So you put Harpy's ability on the stack first, then Confusion. Confusion resolves first, you exchange creatures. The real question is, at that point, does your opponent now control Cavern Harpy's ability? In which case, if he or she has blue or black creatures, he or she could return one of those creatures to his or her hand and thus keep Cavern Harpy. If there were no other legal blue or black creatures to target, I suppose the Harpy would have to go back to your hand, even if your opponent controlled and thus chose targets for the ability. I think that's a pretty solid way to look at it... But then, I'm not an official. :p

A simpler question, but one I wasn't able to answer with the rulebook: Is it possible to counter an activated ability for which the cost includes sacrificing its source, by destroying the permanent? I'm thinking no, but I'm praying for someone to tell me otherwise. Specifically I'm looking for a way to deal with Ratchet Bomb without counterspells. I've been playing BW Tokens recently, and while this or that deck build may give me trouble, the only single card that haunts my dreams is Ratchet Bomb. I don't believe I can counter it without splashing another color, and once it's on the field, there's nothing I can think of to stop it from destroying all my tokens in one fell swoop. I doubt I have to explain this, but simple removal isn't good enough, because even if I try to Oblivion Ring it, all my opponent has to do is tap it in response to the Ring and poof, all my tokens are gone, plus my Oblivion Ring suddenly has no target and becomes a useless enchantment.

My first idea was a destroy/exile instant, to be cast in response to my opponent activating the Bomb's ability, but I'm not sure what part of activating its ability can be responded to, since sacrificing it is part of the cost. Can I respond to my opponent tapping the Bomb before it is sacrificed (since the full cost to activate it is to tap it and then sacrifice it)?

To summarize, I was just hoping someone could shed some light on how (if possible) to deal with abilities that require the source to be sacrificed as part of the cost, without simply countering the ability (since I don't think anything currently in standard counters abilities, though I could be wrong).

Edited to add:
Actually, if there's a list of actions or events to which a player can respond, that'd be awesome, because I'm not finding that in the rulebook.

Edited again: Unless Avacyn Restored surprises me, it looks like Divine Offering is my only option for now, should it work in the first place.
The permanents are exchanged only if they're both on the battlefield when the ability resolves.
Usman Geee....
tentionfree
 
Posts: 1
Joined: 21 Jan 2013, 11:27
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time

Re: Several rules/combo questions

Postby armteethwow » 01 Apr 2013, 09:17

I mean obviously it wouldn't be destroyed either way, but I figured it was illegal to even target it with the effect. Not that it would matter except in really nitpicky situations, but still, I like to be the guy who knows exactly how stuff works, down to the minor details.
arm2teeth
armteethwow
 
Posts: 1
Joined: 01 Apr 2013, 09:15
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time

Re: Several rules/combo questions

Postby chal1oye » 29 Nov 2013, 08:04

My first idea was a destroy/exile instant, to be cast in response to my opponent activating the Bomb's ability, but I'm not sure what part of activating its ability can be responded to, since sacrificing it is part of the cost. Can I respond to my opponent tapping the Bomb before it is sacrificed (since the full cost to activate it is to tap it and then sacrifice it)????
GuL
chal1oye
 
Posts: 1
Joined: 29 Nov 2013, 07:13
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time


Return to Off Topic Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


Who is online

In total there are 3 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 3 guests (based on users active over the past 10 minutes)
Most users ever online was 279 on 11 Jul 2013, 22:03

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

Login Form