New quest decks

[Sloth]

I have a question regarding evaluating quest decks: I noticed that on the forum there is some sort of "automated testing" or "automated evaluation" referenced for decks that assigns the deck its supposed difficulty level (1 - 4). Can you please tell me what the procedure is for that purpose? I'd like to take a whack at modifying and adding some quest decks if that works out. Thanks in advance.

There is no automated evaluation taking place. I'm doing some testing by playing against them with random or selected decks to see where they fit and then make adjustments.

Just post your decks here and the changes to existing ones in the "Quest decks revamp" topic.

[Agetian]

Thanks, Sloth! Will do!

- Agetian

[Sloth]

Here is a medium quest deck based on high power low toughness creatures:

Madame Hydra 2 | Open

9 Forest
9 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
4 Brushstrider
1 Bloodrite Invoker
1 Branchsnap Lorian
1 Daggerclaw Imp
1 Dauthi Marauder
1 Elvish Ranger
1 Krosan Avenger
1 Markov Patrician
1 Nezumi Ronin
1 Nyxborn Wolf
1 Sacred Wolf
1 Servant of Nefarox
1 Smokespew Invoker
1 Skeletal Crocodile
1 Rotting Fensnake
1 Dross Crocodile
1 Gigapede
1 Ayumi, the Last Visitor
1 Phytotitan
2 Viridian Claw
1 Bladed Pinions
2 Essence Harvest
2 Fungal Sprouting
2 Miming Slime
2 Overwhelming Stampede
2 Triumph of Cruelty
2 Triumph of Ferocity

I have the feeling that i'm missing some good additions here. Any ideas?

[friarsol]

Here is a medium quest deck based on high power low toughness creatures:
I have the feeling that i'm missing some good additions here. Any ideas?

Here's just some random cards that might fit..

Hungry Mist
Yavimaya Ants
Deadly Insect
Weatherseed Treefolk

O-Naginata
Butcher's Cleaver
Grafted Wargear
Loxodon Warhammer

Unerring Sling? AI probably can't quite handle this.

If this deck was RG I'd definitely say Mage Slayer.

[lazylockie]

Birthing Pod Hard | Open

2 Abrupt Decay
2 Athreos, God of Passage
2 Bayou
4 Birthing Pod
1 Forest
1 Isolated Chapel
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
4 Murderous Redcap
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Path to Exile
1 Plains
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Reveillark
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Sun Titan
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Windswept Heath
1 Woodland Cemetery

I've been trying to build an AI Birthing Pod deck for a while, even knowing AI's limitations. This one is pretty much like standard Pod decks: sometimes you steam roll with so much card advantage, sometimes there's no Pod and not enough gas. The idea is to use cards that AI is poor to play against (Athreos, Voice) but are devastating against human players.

Maybe it could be a challenge where Birthing Pod is an starting card for AI.

[Sloth]

Birthing Pod Hard | Open

2 Abrupt Decay
2 Athreos, God of Passage
2 Bayou
4 Birthing Pod
1 Forest
1 Isolated Chapel
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
4 Murderous Redcap
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Path to Exile
1 Plains
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Reveillark
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Sun Titan
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Windswept Heath
1 Woodland Cemetery

I've been trying to build an AI Birthing Pod deck for a while, even knowing AI's limitations. This one is pretty much like standard Pod decks: sometimes you steam roll with so much card advantage, sometimes there's no Pod and not enough gas. The idea is to use cards that AI is poor to play against (Athreos, Voice) but are devastating against human players.

Maybe it could be a challenge where Birthing Pod is an starting card for AI.

I think it's ok to be a little inconsistent. The deck is fun to play against. What should the opponent be called?

[lazylockie]

Birthing Pod Hard | Open

2 Abrupt Decay
2 Athreos, God of Passage
2 Bayou
4 Birthing Pod
1 Forest
1 Isolated Chapel
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
4 Murderous Redcap
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Path to Exile
1 Plains
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Reveillark
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Sun Titan
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Windswept Heath
1 Woodland Cemetery

I've been trying to build an AI Birthing Pod deck for a while, even knowing AI's limitations. This one is pretty much like standard Pod decks: sometimes you steam roll with so much card advantage, sometimes there's no Pod and not enough gas. The idea is to use cards that AI is poor to play against (Athreos, Voice) but are devastating against human players.

Maybe it could be a challenge where Birthing Pod is an starting card for AI.

I think it's ok to be a little inconsistent. The deck is fun to play against. What should the opponent be called?

I'll tweak the deck a bit while I think of a name/character for this one

[Agetian]

I was thinking recently about a deck that could be represented by a character of Vanellope (for those who don't know - it's a Disney character from a videogame-themed cartoon, she's a speedy racer who "glitches" past her opponents) and I thought it might be a good idea to theme an aggro deck like that around the Haste and Haste+Flying mechanic (red color) to represent speediness/racing + send-to-exile and send-to-exile-and-return-later instants and enchantments (white color) to represent "glitching" past the opponent's creatures. Also, a good idea in my opinion is to allow this deck to temporarily "steal" the opponent's creatures (red color), gain control of them, give them haste and send back at the opponent (representing "racing+glitching"). In the end I came up with a draft decklist like this one (not carefully balanced yet, so not really a "ready deck", just a draft):

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4 Skyknight Legionnaire
3 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Legion Loyalist
2 Slith Firewalker
2 Spark Trooper
2 Viashino Firstblade
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
1 Ash Zealot
1 Iroas, God of Victory

2 Assemble the Legion
1 Legion's Initiative

3 Oblivion Ring
3 Banishing Light
3 Journey to Nowhere
2 Path to Exile
2 Act of Treason
2 Traitorous Instinct

4 Sacred Foundry
2 Temple of Triumph
10 Mountain
8 Plains


The deck does not contain any AI-unplayable cards according to the ingame deck editor.
Currently this deck performs pretty well against many medium decks and generally loses vs. hard decks, so I guess it's somewhere around medium tier (?). Not sure how to evaluate its performance better. Also, it's not yet fully balanced and I'd like to hear your opinions/ideas in order to make it better overall (in the future I'd probably like to make three versions of this deck, one for each of the easy, medium and hard tiers, if I can do it - with your help, of course).

Some points I'm not really sure about:
- Balancing the mana base. I suck at this, to be honest. Sacred Foundry and Temple of Triumph seem somewhat "slow" for a haste deck, but I'm not sure if getting rid of them altogether and replacing with basic Mountain/Plains is a good idea. Also, the red to white land ratio is something I'm not sure about... Opinions for a better mana base are welcome.
- Generally the selection of creatures. Probably not very optimal but I tried to prefer "theme" over raw synergy for the initial draft. Improvements are welcome.
- Perhaps replace/add any other enchantments that would exploit the R/W "Boros" colors, especially for the future harder version of the deck?
- Would there be a good Planeswalker for a deck like this (e.g. for the harder version)?
- I threw Iroas in there because he's a two-color WR god, but I'm not sure if he's really necessary there (doesn't seem to fit the theme too well but definitely plays his role when on the battlefield since it's easy enough for this deck to build up and maintain devotion).
- Any other advice to make the deck better? And also, any advice to make its easy and hard versions?..

Thanks in advance!

- Agetian

[Marek14]

How about Battlefield Forge? The pain land also shows a bit of "glitch", and trying your best even when it hurts (very Vanellope). Or, with this many basics, Clifftop Retreat.

[Agetian]

Thanks for the advice, Marek! Definitely agree with you about painlands. As of right now, I removed both scrylands and added 4 painlands instead (Battlefield Forge). I'm keeping Sacred Foundry in for now because it can enter the battlefield untapped if 2 life is paid (when necessary), but since the AI doesn't always decide well whether to pay mana or not, I reduced the amount of Sacred Foundry to 2 and added 2 Clifftop Retreat instead given the number of basics, as you advised. Also, I think that for the future harder version, 4 Plateau can be considered instead of two more sets of Mountain+Plains. So far I have the following:

Vanellope von Schweetz - draft #2 - NEWER VERSION BELOW, this is an old draft for reference.

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4 Skyknight Legionnaire
3 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Legion Loyalist
2 Slith Firewalker
2 Spark Trooper
2 Viashino Firstblade
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
1 Ash Zealot
1 Iroas, God of Victory

2 Assemble the Legion
1 Legion's Initiative

3 Oblivion Ring
3 Banishing Light
3 Journey to Nowhere
2 Path to Exile
2 Act of Treason
2 Traitorous Instinct

4 Battlefield Forge
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Temple of Triumph
9 Mountain
7 Plains


So far, cards and things I'm most unsure about are the following:

- Ash Zealot. He has haste+first strike but I'm not sure if maybe replacing him with the third Slith Firewalker is better.
- Legion's Initiative. A pretty good card for a R/W themed deck, maybe worth throwing in another one or one is enough?
- Iroas. I think that his ability "creatures can't be blocked except by two or more creatures" favors the theme a bit (representing "trying to get through no matter what + a bit of rule-glitching"), so I'm more in favor of keeping him around, but opinions are welcome.
- Aurelia the Warleader. While a cool card, I haven't really yet seen it come to the AI actually using it (the battle typically ends before this thing lands on the battlefield). I'm considering replacing it with another Path to Exile or some other removal spell, or maybe a "glitch" steal spell such as Act of Treason.
- There are no artifacts in this deck. Not sure what fun artifacts can come in and what they can/should replace in this case, opinions are welcome. In particular, there is no mana acceleration in this deck but it's a haste-centric deck that really wants to be at least at 4 mana as soon as it can help it. Not sure if this can be accelerated in some smart way.
- Land numbers. Still not sure if it's enough lands and if the ratio is correct - sometimes it seems like the AI is stuck with no lands or with no playable spells, so probably can and should be done to improve the mana base here...

EDIT: Here's a little bit different design of the deck above. Changed some cards around, removed Aurelia the Warleader, rebalanced the amount of removal a little bit. Seems to perform somewhat better. Further tweaks, changes and ideas are welcome.

Vanellope von Schweetz - draft #3

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1 Lightning Servant
2 Legion Loyalist
2 Ash Zealot
2 Slith Firewalker
3 Skyknight Legionnaire
2 Viashino Firstblade
2 Spark Trooper
1 Iroas, God of Victory
2 Stormbreath Dragon

3 Path to Exile
3 Journey to Nowhere
1 Legion's Initiative
3 Banishing Light
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Act of Treason      // SEE NOTE BELOW
2 Traitorous Instinct // SEE NOTE BELOW
2 Assemble the Legion

4 Battlefield Forge
2 Clifftop Retreat
2 Sacred Foundry
9 Mountain
7 Plains


NOTE: The problem with the "steal" spells above (Act of Treason, Traitorous Instinct) is that the AI doesn't always use them correctly. That is, it steals a creature from the opponent but then it doesn't attack with it if it sees a threat to it, which makes the whole process pointless (although this only happens in about a third of cases I've seen). If the AI is made to always attack with temporarily stolen creatures (that will go back to the opponent at the end of turn anyway) it'll be much better, I think.

EDIT: A possible icon for the future deck:

Vanellope von Schweetz.jpg (20.36 KiB) Viewed 4235 times

- Agetian

[Sloth]

- Generally the selection of creatures. Probably not very optimal but I tried to prefer "theme" over raw synergy for the initial draft. Improvements are welcome

Maybe i've missed something, but i can't find any synergy when playing against this deck. There should at least be some cards that profit from all the creatures having haste.

[Agetian]

- Generally the selection of creatures. Probably not very optimal but I tried to prefer "theme" over raw synergy for the initial draft. Improvements are welcome

Maybe i've missed something, but i can't find any synergy when playing against this deck. There should at least be some cards that profit from all the creatures having haste.

Yes, these are the initial drafts, so they are by no means finished and, given that you've read the post with the deck, you know that I'm actually looking around for ideas for improvement. Thus far I have only laid out the basic mechanics that can be the base of a deck like that - that is, an aggro-control style of a deck that beats the opponent down with speedy creatures while exiling and temporarily gaining control over the opponent's threats. Ideas for improvement, especially the ones that deal with building up the actual deck synergy and further balance, are more than welcome in case you have any, I would be grateful for any advice you may have. Otherwise, you have but stated the obvious, or, rather, restated what was already at the core of my statement you have quoted.

EDIT: Speaking of my quest for synergies and balance improvements, thus far I have come up with the following ideas for synergies for the deck, including the ones based on Haste:

1) Make "Assemble the Legion" one of the key stage 3 elements. Combo it up with Purphoros, God of the Forge - every turn you get at least one (and more with every turn) 1/1 haste creature that can attack the turn they come into play (while possibly not immediately super useful at the stage it's likely to come into play, it quickly builds up). However, when combined with Purphoros, God of the Forge, for each such creature 2 damage is dealt straight to the opponent's face. Also, combines well with Legion's Initiative which gives +1/+1 to all the produced tokens.

2) Throw in Satyr Nyx-Smith as a 3 mana Haste creature. Also a Haste creature producer if necessary (can produce a 3/1 Haste elemental after every turn it attacked for the price of 2R) and will combine with the elements above when and if possible.

3) "Assemble the Legion" also works well with Iroas, God of Victory (lots of small hasty creatures each of which takes 2 opposing creatures to block).

4) Get rid of the creature stealing elements (AI doesn't always do very well with them and their effect is but temporary), instead add some more Path to Exile and Journey to Nowhere as cheap removal for the "control" side of the deck until it builds up to the necessary 3-5 mana for the producers. The key idea of the deck is hold the opponent off enough by glitching away his creature threats (and deal some damage here and there with early cheap Haste) until either the opponent is beaten down or, if the game goes longer, the producers and the combos with the producers come into play and then the key endgame element is to outrace the opponent with lots of creatures with Haste produced every turn that ideally have some buffs applied to them from the Gods and/or Legion's Initiative or that deal damage straight to the face when they ETB via Purphoros, God of the Forge.

5) For the earlier (1-3 mana) Haste creatures, prefer ones with more R symbols in their mana costs to feed Purphoros, God of Forge if they survive and W/R Haste+Flying or W/R Haste creatures for good initial stomping + feeding both Purphoros and Iroas should they both stay in the deck.

6) Also, cheap removal (Path to Exile, Journey to Nowhere) *somewhat* combines well with earlier Haste creatures since around 3-4 mana it typically allows to both take care of the opponent's threat and play a Haste creature which will then deal some damage the turn it came onto the battlefield.

Anyhow, these are the only ideas I currently have. Probably my favorite one is the "Assemble the Legion + Purphoros, God of the Forge" exploit, which can easily be game if unchecked for a couple turns (or if a couple Assemble the Legion is on the battlefield already when Purphoros comes into play).

My current draft edition (not yet balanced as far as numbers of each card goes) which implements the above ideas to a certain degree is:

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2 Purphoros, God of the Forge   // Not sure how many to put; it's a key Haste-producing element, but it's also legendary
1 Iroas, God of Victory         // Keep or let go?
1 Lightning Serpent
1 Legion Loyalist
2 Ash Zealot
2 Slith Firewalker
2 Skyknight Legionnaire
2 Satyr Nyx-Smith
1 Viashino Firstblade
2 Spark Trooper                 // Maybe add more of these? Expensive but exploit the Haste mechanic well.
2 Stormbreath Dragon

4 Path to Exile
4 Journey to Nowhere
2 Legion's Initiative
2 Banishing Light               // If more will be necessary, possible to either add more of each ...
2 Oblivion Ring                 // ... or if not just go 4 Oblivion Ring instead.
4 Assemble the Legion           // Maybe too many?

4 Battlefield Forge             // Not really balanced yet?.. Ideas are welcome
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Clifftop Retreat
7 Mountain
7 Plains


Keep in mind that this is still not, by any means, a finished deck. I welcome ideas for both rebalance and synergy. Thank you in advance for any help.

EDIT 2: One of the key issues with the deck outside the problems with balance and internal synergy is acceleration. Without introducing the somewhat "imba" elements (Mox artifacts, Black Lotus, Plateau instead of 4 more basic lands for better R/W mana balance, etc.) about the only way to get somewhat more mana around turn 3+ is to throw in Boros Cluestone. Worth it or not?..

Another idea about rushing to production is to implement Idyllic Tutor (or, for the "less fair" / "harder" versions, Enlightened Tutor instead) - I tested it in the AI's hands and it tends to bring out the enchantments in the following order: Purphoros, Iroas, Assemble the Legion. Kind of makes me want to put Assemble the Legion up there in the first place but since it's impossible, I think it's good enough as is as there are more Assemble the Legion cards in the deck than there are Gods (can possibly also make it viable to reduce the count of each God to one - not sure about it though, suggestions are welcome).

EDIT 3: Here's another idea for a somewhat more radical deck redesign. This one focuses a little bit less on being pure Haste while it improves a bit on the way creatures play together. In particular, some Batallion creatures are added that add beneficial effects when attacking together with other creatures (which ideally happens often enough with this deck because removal + hasty creatures is ideally meant to provide opportunities for attacking often). Also, added one more generator of 1/1 R/W Soldier tokens with haste and a creature that allows to give Haste to other creatures for mana. The only non-Haste creatures here are Flying + Batallion, which plays along well with the deck theme and hopefully adds some extra interplay. For now, there is one of each gods (Purphoros and Iroas), still not sure how to balance them better. This version is 1 land less because its mana curve is not as steep, so hopefully 23 land might prove enough.

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3 Legion Loyalist
3 Sunhome Guildmage
2 Slith Firewalker
3 Skyknight Legionnaire
2 Viashino Firstblade
4 Firemane Avenger
1 Archwing Dragon
2 Spark Trooper
1 Iroas, God of Victory
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge

4 Path to Exile
4 Journey to Nowhere
2 Legion's Initiative
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Assemble the Legion

4 Battlefield Forge
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Clifftop Retreat
7 Mountain
6 Plains


- Agetian

[Sloth]

1) Make "Assemble the Legion" one of the key stage 3 elements. Combo it up with Purphoros, God of the Forge - every turn you get at least one (and more with every turn) 1/1 haste creature that can attack. Combined with Purphoros, God of the Forge, for each such creature 2 damage is dealt straight to the opponent's face.

This is a good start. I could imagine a deck that tries to generate and attack with lots of small creatures.
Cards that fit that theme:
Purphoros, God of the Forge
Iroas, God of Victory
Legion Loyalist
Assemble the Legion
Slith Firewalker

New cards:
Bedlam
Cathars' Crusade
Gleam of Battle
Hellrider
Righteous Cause

Goblin Assault
Goblin Rabblemaster
Goblin Wardriver
Mogg War Marshal
Brimaz, King of Oreskos
Precinct Captain
Thraben Doomsayer
Hero of Bladehold
Hero of Oxid Ridge

Raid Bombardment (not compatible with some other cards)

[Agetian]

Thanks for the ideas and suggestions, Sloth! Will try to work those into the deck tomorrow and will post my further findings here in this post!

- Agetian

[Agetian]

Ok, here's my next attempt at the R/W Haste-based "race" deck that aims to generate lots of small creatures over time, give them beneficial effects and attack for a lot of damage + exercises some early cheap control over the enemy threats in the early phases of the game. Not sure about the balance of numbers of different cards in the deck, to be honest. The mana curve sort of drops at 3 mana marker but is otherwise quite balanced from CMC 1 to 5.

Vanellope von Schweetz - deck draft #5

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4 Legion Loyalist
3 Slith Firewalker
1 Thraben Doomsayer
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4 Hellrider
2 Iroas, God of Victory
2 Purphoros, God of the Forge

4 Path to Exile
3 Journey to Nowhere
3 Legion's Initiative
2 Goblin Assault
3 Assemble the Legion
2 Cathars' Crusade
2 Righteous Cause
1 Gleam of Battle

4 Battlefield Forge
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Clifftop Retreat
7 Mountain
6 Plains


Basically, creature cards in here are either token generators (Brimaz, King of Oreskos, Thraben Doomsayer - at 3 mana they generate non-Haste tokens but are still "race" cards because they have a potential of producing one token every turn) or benefit from attacking early (Slith Firewalker) or are Haste + favor attacking (Hellrider) or are generally early Haste creatures that unleash extra potential later (Legion Loyalist). I left only the cheapest white control elements (Path to Exile, Journey to Nowhere) in so they're not in the way of casting creature and enchantment spells that are more important once the mana base for them is built. I threw in 2 of each God - didn't want too many 'cause they are legendary but one felt too small to give a reasonable chance of one appearing on the board per game. Both Gods provide good combo effects for lots of creatures both entering the battlefield and attacking. Enchantments generally either generate Haste creatures (Assemble the Legion) or seek to increase the strength of the creatures (Assemble the Legion, Cathars' Crusade, Righteous Cause, Gleam of Battle). I was thinking about throwing in Bedlam but I'm not sure about it yet (though it might be a good idea *if* the advantage is built up... I'll do some testing later today; probably worth throwing at least 1 of it into the deck, but what's going to be the best thing to take out of the deck then?).

Ideas for the harder version of the deck: Bedlam, Mox (R/W), Black Lotus, Plateau (for better mana fixing), Swords to Plowshares instead of Journey to Nowhere, Enlightened Tutor to tutor for the Gods.

Thoughts and ideas for further improvement and rebalance are welcome!

- Agetian