New quest decks

[Sloth]

I like your choices. The only changes i would make:
- 2 Hellrider (The AI is not very good at evaluating the racing potential)
- 2 Legion's Initiative (not enough red-white creatures, the AI can't use the ability)
- 1 Righteous Cause (too much 5 drops)

+ 3 Goblin Rabblemaster (makes tokens and profits from
lots of attacking creatures)
+ 1 Goblin Wardriver (needs more 2 drops + devotion)
+ 1 Hero of Oxid Ridge (great finisher)

[Agetian]

Thanks for the rebalance ideas, Sloth, those are all great choices! So far, having implemented all those changes, I have the following:

Vanellope von Schweetz - "standard" edition:

Code: Select all

4 Legion Loyalist
3 Slith Firewalker
1 Goblin Wardriver
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Thraben Doomsayer
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Hellrider
1 Hero of Oxid Ridge
2 Iroas, God of Victory
2 Purphoros, God of the Forge

4 Path to Exile
3 Journey into Nowhere
1 Legion's Initiative
2 Goblin Assault
3 Assemble the Legion
2 Cathar's Crusade
1 Righteous Cause
1 Gleam of Battle

4 Battlefield Forge
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Clifftop Retreat
7 Mountain
6 Plains


Also, for the experimental "harder" / "less fair" build, I have so far come up with the following (WIP):

Vanellope von Schweetz - somewhat "harder" edition (featuring older Vintage cards):

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4 Legion Loyalist
3 Slith Firewalker
1 Goblin Wardriver
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Thraben Doomsayer
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Hellrider
1 Hero of Oxid Ridge
2 Iroas, God of Victory
2 Purphoros, God of the Forge

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
4 Path to Exile
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Legion's Initiative
2 Goblin Assault
1 Bedlam
3 Assemble the Legion
2 Cathars' Crusade
1 Righteous Cause
1 Gleam of Battle

4 Battlefield Forge
4 Plateau
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Clifftop Retreat
3 Mountain
2 Plains


I'd say that the "harder" deck should probably be tweaked somehow in order to be considerably harder, but I'm out of ideas for now, so I think it's safe to assume that the regular (original) deck should be considered as the reference version for now.

I'm not sure where the original deck would fit as far as its difficulty evaluation goes, in my tests it mostly beats medium decks (unless mana screwed) and it can sometimes, but not as often, take on certain hard decks. I tried playing with it and against it, as well as ran quite a good deal of AIvsAI matches, and I think it's quite fun.

As for the "harder" version, I'm still not sure about throwing in Enlightened Tutor there - it seems like the gods mostly "find themselves" by the time they are needed, so I don't know if sacrificing one of the other cards in favor of the tutor would be a necessary thing.

Any further recommendations are welcome!

Just in case here's also the full text of the .dck file for the main version (not the "harder") one:

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[metadata]
Name=Vanellope von Schweetz
[Main]
3 Assemble the Legion|GTC
4 Battlefield Forge|M15
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos|BNG
2 Cathars' Crusade|AVR
2 Clifftop Retreat|ISD
1 Gleam of Battle|DGM
2 Goblin Assault|ALA
3 Goblin Rabblemaster|M15
1 Goblin Wardriver|MBS
2 Hellrider|DKA
1 Hero of Oxid Ridge|MBS
2 Iroas, God of Victory|JOU
3 Journey to Nowhere|ZEN
4 Legion Loyalist|GTC
1 Legion's Initiative|DGM
1 Mountain|THS|1
2 Mountain|THS|2
2 Mountain|THS|3
2 Mountain|THS|4
4 Path to Exile|MMA
1 Plains|THS|1
1 Plains|THS|2
2 Plains|THS|3
2 Plains|THS|4
2 Purphoros, God of the Forge|THS
1 Righteous Cause|COM
4 Sacred Foundry|GTC
3 Slith Firewalker|MRD
1 Thraben Doomsayer|DKA


- Agetian

[Sloth]

The medium version looks good. You can commit it (i can't, i'm on vacation right now).

I can't test the deck right now, so i can only guess how the cards will perform. But here are my suggestions for the hard version:
- 1 Thraben Doomsayer
- 1 Bedlam
- 1 Cathars' Crusade
- 1 Righteous Cause
- 1 Legion's Initiative
- 2 Path to Exile

+ 1 Figure of Destiny
+ 2 Goblin Guide
+ 2 Lightning Helix
+ 1 Swords to Plowshares

Mana base:
12 Red Fetchlands
4 Plateau
2 Mountain
2 Plains

[Agetian]

Alrighty then, I will commit the medium deck and also test the harder version with your suggested modifications tomorrow. Will keep you posted. Thank you very much for your assistance and effort to help along with the deck!

- Agetian

[Agetian]

Here's an idea: I'm thinking about replacing 4 Battlefield Forge in the medium deck with 4 Arid Mesa. The problem with Battlefield Forge is that the AI will always prefer to use it for colored mana, thus getting 1 damage continuously even when it's possible to use this land for colorless mana and avoid damage. Arid Mesa still allows to keep the "painland" aspect a little bit (since it'll force the AI to take 1 damage when it's initially used) but it'll allow the AI to avoid taking unnecessary damage repeatedly later on. However, it might also have the effect of somewhat empowering the mana base of the deck (not a bad thing in itself considering the AI gets stuck on mana from time to time, but still something to be aware of). What do you think about this change?

P.S. Testing the Hard deck. So far so good, it has thus far crushed the Medium opposition (though I only ran 5 matches so far) and won vs. a Hard opponent. Will keep testing.

- Agetian

[Agetian]

Ok here's the Hard version of Vanellope von Schweetz deck. It's actually quite a winning deck, in the AIvsAI matches I have seen this deck had no problem drilling through many other Hard decks (with about the only exceptions being the decks that specifically had creature hate, mass removal / mass damage spells or locking spells like Propaganda). Even the vs-Propaganda match was quite close once Purphoros + Assemble the Legion combo landed. So, definitely not an easy opponent to play against unless you are well prepared to deal with the ever-increasing army of tokens that are buffed over time and that deal damage even without having to attack under certain circumstances. There are, of course, multiple solutions to this deck, too, including mass creature removal, removal of enchantments (disenchant etc.), locking down creature combat, etc. which means that with careful deck selection and construction it can be dealt with and is not one of those frustrating "nearly unbeatable" early infinite loop combo decks that have to be ideally taken care of within the first 2-3 turns.

P.S. It was able to tackle some Very Hard decks, too. It killed "Jabba the Hutt 4" (2-1, and it was stuck on 2 mana in the game it lost) and it beat "Radioactive Man 4" (2-0) before it was able to exploit Sneak Attack.

Should I commit this as a "tier 3" (Hard) version of the deck or would you like to run some tests as well? I may have a somewhat misguided sense of which tier these decks should be at, so I could use some other opinion as well. I want to make sure they are not too easy or too hard for the tiers I'm placing them at according to my testing.

Code: Select all

[metadata]
Name=Vanellope von Schweetz 3
[Main]
4 Arid Mesa|ZEN
3 Assemble the Legion|GTC
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos|BNG
1 Cathars' Crusade|AVR
1 Figure of Destiny|MMA
1 Gleam of Battle|DGM
2 Goblin Assault|ALA
2 Goblin Guide|ZEN
3 Goblin Rabblemaster|M15
1 Goblin Wardriver|MBS
2 Hellrider|DKA
1 Hero of Oxid Ridge|MBS
2 Iroas, God of Victory|JOU
4 Legion Loyalist|GTC
2 Lightning Helix|MMA
1 Mountain|THS|3
1 Mountain|THS|4
1 Mox Pearl|LEB
1 Mox Ruby|LEB
2 Path to Exile|MMA
1 Plains|THS|3
1 Plains|THS|4
4 Plateau|LEB
2 Purphoros, God of the Forge|THS
4 Scalding Tarn|ZEN
3 Slith Firewalker|MRD
1 Sol Ring|COM
4 Swords to Plowshares|CNS
4 Wooded Foothills|ONS


[Sloth]

Here's an idea: I'm thinking about replacing 4 Battlefield Forge in the medium deck with 4 Arid Mesa. The problem with Battlefield Forge is that the AI will always prefer to use it for colored mana, thus getting 1 damage continuously even when it's possible to use this land for colorless mana and avoid damage. Arid Mesa still allows to keep the "painland" aspect a little bit (since it'll force the AI to take 1 damage when it's initially used) but it'll allow the AI to avoid taking unnecessary damage repeatedly later on. However, it might also have the effect of somewhat empowering the mana base of the deck (not a bad thing in itself considering the AI gets stuck on mana from time to time, but still something to be aware of). What do you think about this change?

Sounds good.

Should I commit this as a "tier 3" (Hard) version of the deck or would you like to run some tests as well?

Commit it.

When i'm back from vacation i will test it (and maybe i can improve the AI handling Battalion).

[Agetian]

Sounds good. <...>
Commit it.
When i'm back from vacation i will test it (and maybe i can improve the AI handling Battalion).

Done and done. Alrighty then, thanks for help!

My next idea will be to create a Mono Blue Devotion style deck geared specifically towards the AI. It will, obviously, use Thassa, God of the Sea as its god creature and I'm thinking about centering this deck around Master of Waves and its synergy with blue Elemental creatures in general, and otherwise adding a good amount of card drawing methods to the deck so that the AI can advance faster in building up threat level. Not sure about what other mechanics will come into play here, but Flying and Unblockable may be good to exploit as ways to overcome opponent's defense (unblockable via Thassa, God of the Sea; Flying seems natural for many, but not all blue elemental creatures, but Levitation might be good to make the others, including the Master of Waves "swarm", unexpectedly fly). Defensive measures may include buffy Defender creatures with lots of blue mana symbols in their cost for devotion (such as Plumeveil). I'm not sure about the name of the deck or its other intrinsic mechanics yet, I will post the details and a draft deck list once I have something workable in mind.

- Agetian

[Sloth]

Here is a medium quest deck with Claws of Gix, Barrin, Master Wizard and Perilous Research:

Gix 2 | Open

4 Reliquary Tower
19 Island
4 Claws of Gix
4 Barrin, Master Wizard
4 Perilous Research
4 Hatching Plans
4 Mycosynth Wellspring
4 Ichor Wellspring
4 Spell Snare
4 Mental Misstep
4 Rewind
1 Pearl Lake Ancient

[Sloth]

Here is a medium quest deck based on abusing Portcullis:

Edward Scissorhands 2 | Open

13 Island
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Darksteel Citadel
2 Mystifying Maze
4 Wind Zendikon
4 Ensoul Artifact
4 Portcullis
2 Treachery
2 Control Magic
1 Frozen AEther
1 Quiet Contemplation
1 Spreading Seas
1 Hoodwink
2 Sun Droplet
1 Forcefield
4 Negate
2 Spell Pierce
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Turn Aside
1 Weave Fate
1 Inspiration
4 Think Twice

[Nordos]

Tried to base a deck around Planeswalker, wouldn't know how effective it is, though. I guess it would be a hard opponent while having very precious stuff (such as dual lands, moxes and similar). Maybe it rather should drop some colour, though I dunno. I Will just post it anyway

Planeswalker 3 | Open

1 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Jace Beleren
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Gideon, Champion of Justice
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Chandra, the Firebrand
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
4 Soul Snare
1 Ajani Steadfast
4 The Chain Veil
2 Magus of the Disk
2 Wrath of God
2 Damnation
2 Akroma's Vengeance
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
2 Nevinyrral's Disk
4 Savannah
4 Plateau
3 Tundra
4 Scrubland
3 Underground Sea
3 Taiga

Basically, each PW is unique and it has a lot of removals/mass removals

[Sloth]

Tried to base a deck around Planeswalker, wouldn't know how effective it is, though. I guess it would be a hard opponent while having very precious stuff (such as dual lands, moxes and similar). Maybe it rather should drop some colour, though I dunno. I Will just post it anyway

Planeswalker 3 | Open

1 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Jace Beleren
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Gideon, Champion of Justice
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Chandra, the Firebrand
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
4 Soul Snare
1 Ajani Steadfast
4 The Chain Veil
2 Magus of the Disk
2 Wrath of God
2 Damnation
2 Akroma's Vengeance
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
2 Nevinyrral's Disk
4 Savannah
4 Plateau
3 Tundra
4 Scrubland
3 Underground Sea
3 Taiga

Basically, each PW is unique and it has a lot of removals/mass removals

I guess it's time to have a "Superfriends" deck as an opponent in Forge.

1. Have you tested the Planeswalker's Nordos?
I'm not sure about some of these. The AI might use them poorly.

At least Koth of the Hammer, Ajani Steadfast and Chandra, the Firebrand look they can completely fail to do anything useful.

2. The mana base needs more Fetchlands.

3. 4 x The Chain Veil looks like too much. The card is very, very weak.

[Nordos]

I did run some test. It looked like it would use Koth of the Hammer pretty effective (awakening a mountain and attacking).
Ajani Steadfast is indeed pretty useless in general. Regarding Chandra I would't know, I suspect that he would shoot the player if the creatures have too much health.
I agree with reducing The Chain Veil. I just liked the idea of having the planeswalker use its abilities twice in a turn ^^ I guess 2x are enough?
Another thing I encountered while running some tests is, that the AI tends to use the ulti of a PW as soon as it is ready. Well, looks like it anyway.
Does the AI know how to utilize proliferate in regards to PW?

EDIT: Looks like The Chain Veil isn't used at all o.O Didn't pay any attention to it before ...

[Sloth]

OK, i tried to get that deck to work. I cut green, because the mana base was just too bad to support 5 colors. This is where i am at the moment:

Zeus 3 | Open

2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Chandra, the Firebrand
1 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Karn Liberated
2 Koth of the Hammer
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2 The Chain Veil
2 Soul Snare
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pyroclasm
3 Wrath of God
3 Damnation
2 Contagion Clasp
2 Volt Charge
3 Chromatic Lantern
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
2 Plateau
2 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
2 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
3 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta

The AI still makes a lot of bad decissions about which ability to use, so it's actually pretty weak for a hard deck. But it does some crazy things sometimes, so i guess it's fine this way.

[Sloth]

I've also cut black. It's taking shape now:

Zeus 3 | Open

2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Chandra, the Firebrand
1 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Teferi, Temporal Archmage
2 Koth of the Hammer
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2 The Chain Veil
2 Soul Snare
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pyroclasm
4 Wrath of God
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Contagion Clasp
2 Volt Charge
1 Lightning Helix
2 Chromatic Lantern
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Plateau
1 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn