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Quest decks revamp

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Re: Quest decks revamp

Postby Chris H. » 20 Apr 2011, 23:33

Sloth wrote:Another deck that has to become more powerful is Jack Sparrow 3. I don't want to change the theme (it's pirates, what can be better) for the Jack Sparrow 1 and 2, but Ramirez DePietro and Talas Merchant just won't cut it in tier 3. Any ideas how to make this deck more powerful while staying (at least mostly) on theme?
`
Jack Sparrow 3, Hmmm.

We have a new pirate, Reef Pirates. We can replace the 3 Talas Merchant with the Reef Pirates. Beyond this there is nothing new in pirates to speak of.

There are 12 auras with "You control enchanted creature." This is pretty much the meat and potatoes for this deck. Granted, we could replace the Mind Harness and Threads of Disloyalty with a more powerful versions.

Improving the controlling auras would allow us to replace two of them with Sea's Claim or Spreading Seas. This would allow the Armored Galleon and the Pirate Ship to attack the human.
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Re: Quest decks revamp

Postby Chris H. » 21 Apr 2011, 02:25

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Re: Quest decks revamp

Postby Sloth » 21 Apr 2011, 08:31

Chris H. wrote:Jack Sparrow 3, Hmmm.

We have a new pirate, Reef Pirates. We can replace the 3 Talas Merchant with the Reef Pirates. Beyond this there is nothing new in pirates to speak of.

There are 12 auras with "You control enchanted creature." This is pretty much the meat and potatoes for this deck. Granted, we could replace the Mind Harness and Threads of Disloyalty with a more powerful versions.

Improving the controlling auras would allow us to replace two of them with Sea's Claim or Spreading Seas. This would allow the Armored Galleon and the Pirate Ship to attack the human.
Spreading Seas is a good idea (and the one Sea's Claim should also be Spreading Seas). Other idea:
- Bribery would fit the theme.
- Time Walk is always a Power Up.
- Polluted Delta can now be used.
- Archivist can become something more powerful like Shadowmage Infiltrator.
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Re: Quest decks revamp

Postby Chris H. » 21 Apr 2011, 12:49

Sloth wrote:Spreading Seas is a good idea (and the one Sea's Claim should also be Spreading Seas). Other idea:
- Bribery would fit the theme.
- Time Walk is always a Power Up.
- Polluted Delta can now be used.
- Archivist can become something more powerful like Shadowmage Infiltrator.
`
I made the changes that you suggested and play tested the deck. The deck appears to be stronger than it was but it will not be one of the strongest tier 3 decks in quest mode.
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Re: Quest decks revamp

Postby Chris H. » 21 Apr 2011, 13:39

I have a question for you Sloth. Sorry to ask but my coding skills are very limited and it is hard for me to walk the code path.

I see that in rev 8136 that you edited the opponent deck description in QuestBattle.buildDeckList(). A duplicate of this same method can be found in Gui_Quest_Deck_Info.buildDeckList().

The class files containing these two methods are not the same and there are a few differences. I see that it is going to be difficult to keep both of these methods updated.

If you get a moment, could you check this out and report back to us/me. Are both methods being used? Do we need both of these two methods? Would it be safe to comment out one of these two methods?

Fnoed would probably be the one person in the know so to speak but I have not seen much of him over the last month or so. :(
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Re: Quest decks revamp

Postby Chris H. » 21 Apr 2011, 14:44

I ran a few test and apparently "forge.Gui_Quest_Deck_Info.buildDeckList()" is no longer being used. This may be remnants of the old quest GUI. It may be safe to delete this class.

This is the active method for building the opponent deck list:

forge.quest.gui.main.QuestBattle.buildDeckList()

I will comment out the old unused method and leave a note directing people to build the opponent list in the active method.
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Re: Quest decks revamp

Postby Sloth » 21 Apr 2011, 15:46

Chris H. wrote:I ran a few test and apparently "forge.Gui_Quest_Deck_Info.buildDeckList()" is no longer being used. This may be remnants of the old quest GUI. It may be safe to delete this class.

This is the active method for building the opponent deck list:

forge.quest.gui.main.QuestBattle.buildDeckList()

I will comment out the old unused method and leave a note directing people to build the opponent list in the active method.
Thanks, Chris. You know that I'm not a good coder either. I hope we will have the whole quest deck descriptions sourced out into text format sooner or later.
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Re: Quest decks revamp

Postby friarsol » 21 Apr 2011, 17:08

Sloth wrote:Thanks, Chris. You know that I'm not a good coder either. I hope we will have the whole quest deck descriptions sourced out into text format sooner or later.
I'd love to see those descriptions in the deck files themselves. Oh one can dream.
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Re: Quest decks revamp

Postby Chris H. » 21 Apr 2011, 18:24

friarsol wrote:
Sloth wrote:Thanks, Chris. You know that I'm not a good coder either. I hope we will have the whole quest deck descriptions sourced out into text format sooner or later.
I'd love to see those descriptions in the deck files themselves. Oh one can dream.
`
I agree. :D

I saw that Fnoed was visiting briefly last week. We all miss him and the work that he did improving the quest UI is just plain awesome.

Everyone worked really hard on the project the last 6 months or so. At some point we all tend to run out of steam and find that there are other areas of our real life that can no longer be put off.

We wish Fnoed and Choppic well. Forge looks a lot better than it did before their efforts. :D
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Re: Quest decks revamp

Postby Chris H. » 24 Apr 2011, 23:13

The quest deck descriptions are somewhat improved but there is still room for additional improvement.

Some people have a good eye for deck analysis and they can use their knowledge base to come up with a few descriptive words for a deck using popular terminology.

Unfortunately, I lack the eye and the lingo. :)
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Re: Quest decks revamp

Postby Sloth » 25 Apr 2011, 07:32

Chris H. wrote:The quest deck descriptions are somewhat improved but there is still room for additional improvement.

Some people have a good eye for deck analysis and they can use their knowledge base to come up with a few descriptive words for a deck using popular terminology.

Unfortunately, I lack the eye and the lingo. :)
Thanks Chris. And thanks for fixing the typos in the deck lists.

Did you notice any more decks that lack a proper theme or are unbalanced?
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Re: Quest decks revamp

Postby Chris H. » 25 Apr 2011, 14:15

Sloth wrote:Thanks Chris. And thanks for fixing the typos in the deck lists.

Did you notice any more decks that lack a proper theme or are unbalanced?
`
The decks that come up most often are Samantha Stephens (tier 3) and Ned Flanders. Not sure if these decks should be adjusted or if they should be moved to tier 4.

I have not had a chance to find and look at the new(?) code for special quest opponents. I imagine that Fnoed may not have made too many changes in how these types of decks are handled. But I could be mistaken.

Special quest decks are harder to implement and as we add more of them it becomes more time consuming to test them to make sure that the cards that start in play are reasonably play balanced.


One of our decks has Joiner Adept and I remember that you recently fixed that card. Several of the other decks may have cards that once worked prior to Ability Factory. With the recent card conversions there may be a few more cards that now do no work for the AI.

The old fear deck is the only one that I remember that we failed to adjust last year. We did a good job then but ran out of steam and became involved in other areas of the project.
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Re: Quest decks revamp

Postby Sloth » 25 Apr 2011, 15:32

Chris H. wrote:The decks that come up most often are Samantha Stephens (tier 3) and Ned Flanders. Not sure if these decks should be adjusted or if they should be moved to tier 4.
I removed all but one Grindstone from Samantha Stephens last week. Ned Flanders is brutal, but the players can add some graveyard hate to their deck, when they intend to face him (Reanimator as a description should be enough to warn them).

Chris H. wrote:Special quest decks are harder to implement and as we add more of them it becomes more time consuming to test them to make sure that the cards that start in play are reasonably play balanced.
I was in favor of a "normal" tier 4 in addition to the quest decks. Now that more cards are available and the AI has gotten better, I have some decks in mind that really break tier 3 (things like Show and Tell + Emrakul, the Aeons Torn or Tinker + Blightsteel Colossus).

Chris H. wrote:One of our decks has Joiner Adept and I remember that you recently fixed that card. Several of the other decks may have cards that once worked prior to Ability Factory. With the recent card conversions there may be a few more cards that now do no work for the AI.
There shouldn't be a lot like them (but Ball Lightning creatures come to mind).

EDIT: I looked through the deck descriptions and decks:

Doc Holiday - WUG Morph deck with Regenerate creatures
These decks don't have much synergy and Doc Holiday 3 looks too weak (Revered Dead and Righteous Charge are not powerful)

Electro 3 - WRG deck with Arashi, the Sky Asunder and Ball Lightning
This decks doesn't have much synergy. The AI can't use the channel ability of Arashi. Other weak cards: Eladamri's Call, Regrowth, Howling Mine (in this deck).

Gold Finger 3 - U control deck with various counter spells, Serra Sphinx and Memnarch
Theme is ok. Should be powered up.

Green Lantern 3 - UBR Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker deck with threat removal and several creatures
Lacks synergy and has a bad mana curve. Some very weak cards (Pardic Collaborator, Ridgetop Raptor, Shatter).

Iceman 3 - UB Bounce and Control deck
Could have a real bounce theme (Warped Devotion). Some very weak cards (Vampiric Tutor, Cruel Tutor, Serpent Warrior, Diabolic Tutor, Demonic Tutor). [Vampiric Tutor in an AI deck basically is B - Instant - lose 2 life]
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Re: Quest decks revamp

Postby Chris H. » 25 Apr 2011, 16:33

Sloth wrote:I was in favor of a "normal" tier 4 in addition to the quest decks. Now that more cards are available and the AI has gotten better, I have some decks in mind that really break tier 3 (things like Show and Tell + Emrakul, the Aeons Torn or Tinker + Blightsteel Colossus).
`
Sounds interesting but it may be difficult to implement. We currently have a large number of hard decks to battle. How many tier 4 decks could we create? Would it be fun to graduate from facing a larger number of hard decks and then facing just a few killer tier 4 decks? Would people continue their quest?

Or, towards the end of the quest we could display 2 or 3 hard deck opponents and add in an expert opponent deck. This would allow tier 4 decks without there being a separate fourth tier.

It might be fun to consider a similar sort of system earlier in the quest. Rather that going from all easy decks to all medium decks there could be a few battles in between where there would be a mixture of the two.
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Re: Quest decks revamp

Postby Chris H. » 25 Apr 2011, 16:36

Sloth wrote:Doc Holiday - WUG Morph deck with Regenerate creatures
These decks don't have much synergy
`
I guess that we could replace the regenerating creatures in the Doc Holiday decks with something better.

I hate to totally give up on having a regen deck. Sol spent some time improving the regen AF and I would like to showcase this in one of the decks. Do you have any ideas for a deck of regen creatures?
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