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Quest decks revamp

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Re: Quest decks revamp

Postby Sloth » 01 Sep 2012, 22:30

friarsol wrote:
Nordos wrote:Hm, how about a graveyard-themed B U Zombie deck with Forbidden Alchemy, some self-milling zombies, Havengul Lich, Zombie Apocalypse and Unbreathing Horde?
Including Havengul Runebinder, Cementary Reaper and some Zombies who need to exile creature cards....
If you splash in Red you can use Lord of Tresserhorn (if the AI knows how to use it)
We know that you love Alliances. But if the AI would be smart enough to know how to use it, it would secretly switch the card with a basic island. :D
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Re: Quest decks revamp

Postby Nordos » 01 Sep 2012, 22:41

I've thrown some fitting cards into the deck - and I already had over 50 cards w/o lands. I guess red won't be used after all :P
Though it could be a lesser opponent, say, easy/medium is U B R and medium/hard is U B (depending how strong it will be after all, ofc)
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Re: Quest decks revamp

Postby friarsol » 01 Sep 2012, 23:20

I forgot we already had a UBR Solkanar deck. I'll see if I can fit a Lord of Tresserhorn into that :D
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Re: Quest decks revamp

Postby Nordos » 02 Sep 2012, 09:36

hm. Havengul Lich won't be used at all.
Sometimes he activates the ability of Lord of the Undead when he has 7 cards in hand, using the mana he would have needed to cast a spell.
He doesn't look like he could actually play these cards as I intented them to be.
He doesnt even activate Havengul Runebinder, as far as I can see. If he can't use these cards, my deck idea seems to fail :-/
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Re: Quest decks revamp

Postby Sloth » 02 Sep 2012, 11:18

Nordos wrote:hm. Havengul Lich won't be used at all.
Sometimes he activates the ability of Lord of the Undead when he has 7 cards in hand, using the mana he would have needed to cast a spell.
He doesn't look like he could actually play these cards as I intented them to be.
He doesnt even activate Havengul Runebinder, as far as I can see. If he can't use these cards, my deck idea seems to fail :-/
Don't give up, i can fix some of these. At least Lord of the Undead and Havengul Runebinder. Havengul Lich might need some more infrastructure though.

Just post what you've created so far.
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Re: Quest decks revamp

Postby Nordos » 02 Sep 2012, 11:31

It was just a quick collection. Since it depends on having many cards in the graveyard, I figured that it might be useful to have some more cards.
Since it isn't actually meant to be a strong deck, I decided that it won't have things like Time Walk or similar, yet again I added 2 moxes.

Code: Select all
4 Armored Skaab
2 Army of the Damned
4 Call to the Kindred
2 Cemetery Reaper
4 Death Baron
4 Diregraf Captain
4 Drowned Catacomb
2 Endless Ranks of the Dead
4 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Geralf's Mindcrusher
1 Grimgrin, Corpse-Born
4 Havengul Runebinder
10 Island
1 Lim-Dul the Necromancer
3 Lord of the Undead
1 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
2 Relentless Skaabs
1 Scrapskin Drake
4 Screeching Skaab
1 Skaab Ruinator
11 Swamp
4 Tainted Isle
4 Unbreathing Horde
4 Underground Sea
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Zombie Master
It is really difficult to choose among all these zombies.
You could reduce Army of the Damned by one (I have included it because it has flashback, thus, even if it hits the graveyard, it could still be usefull in the endgame)
The main problem is, that I have nearly no low drops in this deck. 4 creatures with mana cost of 2. Thus, it is predestined to be quiet slow.
Of course, you could add Gravecrawler and such, yet again ... Dunno.
Another possible change would be adding one Wonder. Then again, it could be exiled, which would make it quiet rendundant.
The Zombie Master in combination with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is a potential finisher, even though it won't occur that often. Since Zombie Master and the Tomb are fitting in anyway, I asumed to be quiet usefull.
I admit, that not every creature is a zombie - but IMO does Lim-Dul the Necromancer fit with the zombie theme quiet well, especially if you control a Death Baron.


All in all, I guess its an medium opponent.
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Re: Quest decks revamp

Postby Sloth » 02 Sep 2012, 13:08

I've tested the deck a bit, here are my observations:
Armored Skaab, Forbidden Alchemy and Screeching Skaab are the most valuable players. They enable a lot of nice things going on. In order to increase the chance of drawing them, the number of cards should be 60 and no more.

In the early game the AI wasn't doing much, in the late game it had some copies of Havengul Runebinder and Lord of the Undead which could have been very good, but the AI just didn't have the mana to activate all of them each turn (and play the Zombies returned by Lord of the Undead). So in order to lower the mana requirements, i would:
- Cut Call to the Kindred and all cards that cost more than 4 mana (yes changes the deck fundamentally).
- Replace some copies of Forbidden Alchemy with Mental Note.
- And yes definitely add four copies of Gravecrawler.
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Re: Quest decks revamp

Postby Nordos » 02 Sep 2012, 14:17

if your deck turns out to be stronger, we could add mine as medium and yours as a hard deck ....
How about that?
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Re: Quest decks revamp

Postby Sloth » 02 Sep 2012, 18:19

Nordos wrote:if your deck turns out to be stronger, we could add mine as medium and yours as a hard deck ....
How about that?
Yes, that sounds like a good idea. I think your current decklist is still a little too strong for a medium opponent though. I will replace the moxen and the duals for some other mana sources. I will also remove Grimgrin, Corpse-Born, because the AI will never use his untap ability in this deck (he would sac a Gravecrawler though).

I hope i don't sound too harsh all the time. I really enjoy tinkering with the AI decks. And your input is very welcome Nordos. Keep it up. =D>
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Re: Quest decks revamp

Postby Nordos » 02 Sep 2012, 19:17

Actually, Grimgrin, Corpse-Born weakens the deck, since the AI does use his untap effect as soon as it gets tapped - and does often sacrifice creatures like Death Baron and similar...
well, when I tested the deck, it seemed to be on the same level as the other medium decks (I used 3 different medium decks to test it). So I wouldn't think that it needs to be weakened - but it may just be my impression ;)

I, too, do like to build decks. Whenever I encounter an interesting card in quest mode, or I played with a real deck, I begin to imagine how I could build a deck around this card/theme. :D
I already thought about a shrine-themed deck yet I guess it won't be successfully as long as the AI doesn't know about Mirror Gallery. I already thought about some cards which would fit the deck somehow xD
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Re: Quest decks revamp

Postby Sloth » 03 Sep 2012, 10:20

Nordos wrote:well, when I tested the deck, it seemed to be on the same level as the other medium decks (I used 3 different medium decks to test it). So I wouldn't think that it needs to be weakened - but it may just be my impression ;)
I've tested some more and i'm confident that the deck is too strong for medium even without moxen. In order to weaken it a bit i would like to reduce the 4 copies of Death Baron (which is a very good card, but is not especially vital to the deck [and fits into a lot of other decks too]) to one copy and add cards that are not powerful, but fit the deck: Ashen Ghoul, Corpse Connoisseur and Grixis Slavedriver.

Here is the actual decklist:
The Zombie 2 | Open
[duel]
[metadata]
Name=The Zombie 2
Title=The Zombie
Difficulty=medium
Description=UB Zombie deck with Call to the Kindred
Icon=The Zombie.jpg
Deck Type=constructed
[main]
10 Island
10 Swamp
3 Tainted Isle
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Drowned Catacomb
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Armored Skaab
2 Army of the Damned
1 Ashen Ghoul
4 Call to the Kindred
2 Cemetery Reaper
1 Corpse Connoisseur
1 Death Baron
4 Diregraf Captain
2 Endless Ranks of the Dead
4 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Geralf's Mindcrusher
1 Grixis Slavedriver
4 Havengul Runebinder
1 Lim-Dul the Necromancer
3 Lord of the Undead
1 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
2 Relentless Skaabs
1 Scrapskin Drake
4 Screeching Skaab
1 Skaab Ruinator
4 Unbreathing Horde
2 Zombie Master
[sideboard]


Here is the hard version (not final yet):
The Zombie 3 | Open
[duel]
[metadata]
Name=The Zombie 3
Title=The Zombie
Difficulty=hard
Description=UB Zombie deck with Call to the Kindred
Icon=The Zombie.jpg
Deck Type=constructed
[main]
2 Swamp
3 Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Drowned Catacomb
2 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Screeching Skaab
4 Armored Skaab
4 Mental Note
1 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Gravecrawler
4 Diregraf Captain
2 Cemetery Reaper
2 Death Baron
3 Lord of the Undead
1 Zombie Master
1 Lich Lord of Unx
1 Stitched Drake
2 Skaab Ruinator
2 Havengul Runebinder
1 Soulless One
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
[sideboard]
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Re: Quest decks revamp

Postby Nordos » 03 Sep 2012, 10:52

Just one thing regarding The Zombie - it says 'UB Zombie deck with Call to the Kindred', yet it doesn't even have a single copy of Call to the Kindred :P
I actually dislike the Polluted Delta and similar cards - I just don't see that it will be that useful.
You have to pay 1 life and enables to search for a certain land / reduces the lands which are still left in the deck. Then again, it is only usefull in a low-drop deck. Because it reduces the chance to draw another land.
In this deck, however, we have cards like Havengul Runebinder or Cemetery Reaper, which do drain mana, too. It may be true that the actual cards are mostly low drops, but since the deck is buildup as having always creatures in its graveyard, the abilities of these two cards can be used quiet often, which makes the deck a lot more mana-draining then you would think it would be, if you understand what I mean ;)
Anyway, Call to the Kindred IS a strong card, and you may think about adding one or two copies to the hard deck. Mind, that it enables you to play an additional zombie each turn...
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Re: Quest decks revamp

Postby friarsol » 03 Sep 2012, 14:44

Nordos wrote:Just one thing regarding The Zombie - it says 'UB Zombie deck with Call to the Kindred', yet it doesn't even have a single copy of Call to the Kindred :P
I actually dislike the Polluted Delta and similar cards - I just don't see that it will be that useful.
You have to pay 1 life and enables to search for a certain land / reduces the lands which are still left in the deck. Then again, it is only usefull in a low-drop deck. Because it reduces the chance to draw another land.
In this deck, however, we have cards like Havengul Runebinder or Cemetery Reaper, which do drain mana, too. It may be true that the actual cards are mostly low drops, but since the deck is buildup as having always creatures in its graveyard, the abilities of these two cards can be used quiet often, which makes the deck a lot more mana-draining then you would think it would be, if you understand what I mean ;)
I think you have your logic backwards on Fetchlands. If you think of Life as just another resource you have to spend, paying one life to make sure you have the right color of mana is an easy choice to make. There aren't going to be many games of Magic where all 24 of your lands are out on the battlefield, and unless there are some serious issues with all of your lands ending up in the graveyard due do self-milling, taking up 4 spots for fetchlands is definitely a good thing. There's a reason most Standard decks (even some mono color ones) run 4-8 Fetches, it's to improve the likelihood that you draw into a useful card late in the game instead of semi-useless 12th (or whatever) land. There's a world of difference between a starting hand of 2 Swamps, and a starting hand of a Swamp and a Fetch.
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Re: Quest decks revamp

Postby Nordos » 07 Sep 2012, 20:00

An addition for the W R Sneak Attack deck:
Moldgraf Monstrosity (8/8 trample AND the AI gets 2 of his previous used creatures from his graveyard into play)
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Re: Quest decks revamp

Postby moomarc » 08 Sep 2012, 07:51

Nordos wrote:An addition for the W R Sneak Attack deck:
Moldgraf Monstrosity (8/8 trample AND the AI gets 2 of his previous used creatures from his graveyard into play)
Maybe we could build a U R Sneak Attack deck with Tamiyo, the Moon Sage. Seems like it could combo well and the blue gives you loads of card draw to make sure the hand is always full of creatures. Just an idea.
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