Collectible Card Game Headquarters

Recently there has been renewed work on Forge's UI (and I believe the changes so far have been solid improvements.) I'm making this thread so that we have a place to kick around ideas and give feedback.

Anyway, the following are my thoughts.

I've been enjoying tab-less Forge: I think it cleans up the playfield, frees up space, and generally looks much better. Currently tabs are used to identify panels, to arrange them, and to switch between them as gameplay requires. They're perfect tools for organizing the playspace, and the current method of hiding them works well, so there's no issue there. What's been on my mind is how to incorporate the ability to switch between zones and opponents when the tabs are hidden, and the following is what I've come up with.

My proposal is to use the top battlefield for opponents, the bottom for the player, and the current "Human's Hand" panel as a universal display area for all players' hands, graveyards, exile zones, command zones, etc.

In the player info panel there are icons for the hand, the graveyard, the exile zone, cards with flashback, etc. These currently bring up the items in list view. Instead, we could make the buttons display the contents in the "Human's Hand" panel - playing a flashback card would use the same graphical interface as clicking on a spell in your hand, bringing up the opponent's hand would show card backs unless you have permission to view its contents, etc. In addition, spells and abilities which bring up the contents of graveyards and hands as a boxed list (Thoughtseize, for instance,) could now use a unified interface for selecting cards to discard, etc. (As an aside, the abandonment of lists and yes/no prompt boxes is pretty much number one on my UX wishlist as a user.)

The only zone not represented in the player info panels is the command zone. My suggestion is the creation of a "life total" icon to go in the left column under the player portrait, balanced with the "poison" icon on the right (arguably a better spot than next to flashback.) The second row would hold hand and library, and the third graveyard and exile. The fourth row would hold command and flashback. I think this arrangement makes a decent amount of sense (it also has the benefit of separating the player portrait, used for targeting of players for abilities, from the life total, used for life payments for spells which might target something or someone else entirely.)

Tabbed battlefields could be replaced in multiplayer by making use of the "Players" panel. The panel is currently used to display more technical information (maximum hand size, cards drawn this turn, and damage prevention up.) This currently doesn't have a scroll bar, so most information in a multiplayer game is inaccessible.

A revamp could present a "banner" for each player, with their portrait on the left and vital statistics displayed to the right. The players would be stacked by turn order, and clicking on a portrait would bring that opponent's battlefield to the top panel. Simple effects that require targeting a player could be done through the portrait shortcut. This would reduce the number of clicks, make it more intuitive to find a certain enemy, and increase the utility of the "Players" panel for multiplayer where it's most useful.

Anyway, I get that this is pretty much unsolicited feature requests at this point, but I suspect that many devs and users have their personal vision / wishlist for how Forge's UI can be streamlined. spr is currently working on these areas, and has welcomed discussion around his changes, so I'm thinking it's not a bad time to have a "big" discussion.

Hope I haven't overstepped my bounds in creating this thread, and a big thanks to spr, drdev, and all the devs for the work put into Forge!

Thanks for creating this thread Diogenes. Please can we have this thread stickied to the top of the forum where I think it will get much use.

My biggest bug bear at the moment, which you alluded to, is the modal lists for view/selecting cards from the library. At the very least you should be able to view card details.

One thing that struck me as I read your ideas is whether it would be useful to have the ability to remember layouts based on the game format and whether you are playing single/multiple opponents.

I think the player stats panels need a revamp. For a start, how about a single phase indicator bar which could be docked to the sides, top or bottom of the screen. Or "highlighting" the avatar of the player with priority. Making the text color contrast clearer. Better indications when something has changed the stats - ie. mana added, flashing icon, etc.

If I have any goal it is probably to try and make the play area feel less cluttered (I had a look at Incantus the other day - now that has space!). For example, I find using the card Zoomer a very natural way of taking a closer look at a card. Consequently, I find it distracting when the card preview constantly updates as the mouse moves over cards on the battlefield or hand areas, so I could do without this panel.

I could go on but I am hungry.

Cheers,
Steve

spr wrote:For a start, how about a single phase indicator bar which could be docked to the sides, top or bottom of the screen. Or "highlighting" the avatar of the player with priority. Making the text color contrast clearer. Better indications when something has changed the stats - ie. mana added, flashing icon, etc.

I mark different phases to skip depending on whether it's my turn or the opponents turn, how would you mark these if you only had a single Phase indicator?

friarsol wrote:I mark different phases to skip depending on whether it's my turn or the opponents turn, how would you mark these if you only had a single Phase indicator?

During the opponents turn toggle on/off the phases to skip? It would remember each players phase settings and switch accordingly each turn.

Cheers,
Steve

spr wrote:

friarsol wrote:I mark different phases to skip depending on whether it's my turn or the opponents turn, how would you mark these if you only had a single Phase indicator?

During the opponents turn toggle on/off the phases to skip? It would remember each players phase settings and switch accordingly each turn.

But what if I cast an Icy Manipulator and want to enable my opponents Upkeep (which is normally off). I wouldn't have a chance to do that the way you describe.

friarsol wrote:But what if I cast an Icy Manipulator and want to enable my opponents Upkeep (which is normally off). I wouldn't have a chance to do that the way you describe.

Point taken. How about clicking the opponents avatar temporarily displays their phase bar? How frequently do you adjust phases anyway?

Cheers,
Steve

spr wrote:

friarsol wrote:But what if I cast an Icy Manipulator and want to enable my opponents Upkeep (which is normally off). I wouldn't have a chance to do that the way you describe.

Point taken. How about clicking the opponents avatar temporarily displays their phase bar? How frequently do you adjust phases anyway?

I mostly have it set a specific way. But I'll turn Phases on depending the cards I have that need that Phase (and turn them back off when they are no longer applicable). Typically cards that tap things down I'll add a stop in Opponents Begin Combat or Upkeep. Cards like Prodigal Sorcerer I turn on Opponent End of Turn. If I have a Hammer of Bogardan in my deck, I'll set my Upkeep to stop so I can retrieve it.

I play pretty rhythmically, so I try to keep it where, I only have limited stops: something like My Main phases, my Declare Attackers and Declare Blockers. Opponents Declare Attackers and Blockers. So I know how many space bars I have to tap to get to my turn and what not.

If you are plannig to seriously improve the UI, please, consider getting us rid of tabs at all.

In my idea of a best UI, the battlefield is a 2D space (or even 3D space - using jOGL) that can be panned and zoomed, while all these PlayAreas we currently have are pure evil.

Diogenes wrote:My proposal is to use the top battlefield for opponents, the bottom for the player, and the current "Human's Hand" panel as a universal display area for all players' hands, graveyards, exile zones, command zones, etc.

I think displaying the cards in the same way as the Hand is the way to go. Not so sure about actually using the Hand area to do it. I think think there should be a distinct sense that play is paused when viewing cards in the areas you mentioned above so I would be inclined to show the cards as in the Hand area but using the overlay affect where the background is dimmed like with the zoomer or end-game view.

Max mtg wrote:If you are plannig to seriously improve the UI, please, consider getting us rid of tabs at all.

In my idea of a best UI, the battlefield is a 2D space (or even 3D space - using jOGL) that can be panned and zoomed, while all these PlayAreas we currently have are pure evil.

You mean a bit like Incantus? Being able to pan and zoom the play area looks nice but I don't think it is that suited to a card game. I think Forge's interface is basically sound it just needs streamlining and probably a few fancy 2D/3D effects.

Also, I find areas like the log helpful but I would imagine the more advanced players would prefer a "purer" experience that is closer to playing in the real world without all the extraneous info. I think an option to hide or dock selected areas to the screen edge would help in that regard.

Cheers,
Steve.

spr wrote:

Diogenes wrote:My proposal is to use the top battlefield for opponents, the bottom for the player, and the current "Human's Hand" panel as a universal display area for all players' hands, graveyards, exile zones, command zones, etc.

I think displaying the cards in the same way as the Hand is the way to go. Not so sure about actually using the Hand area to do it. I think think there should be a distinct sense that play is paused when viewing cards in the areas you mentioned above so I would be inclined to show the cards as in the Hand area but using the overlay affect where the background is dimmed like with the zoomer or end-game view.

I've mentioned this in other threads, but I'm already working towards this. The recently committed ItemManager control will eventually support displaying cards in either list view or card view (and support filtering), and once I get it working in Deck Editor, I plan to make all the places we show a list of cards on the Match screen use the ItemManager instead. The control is being designed to be flexible enough to work with and display lists of other item types besides cards as well, such as decks.

I also want to say I'm excited by the creation of this thread. spr and I have both been putting in a lot of time on the UI in the past couple months, and glad we now have this place to gather feedback and discuss ways to continue making the UI better moving forward.

Lastly, a heads up that I'm making progress towards the ability to change themes (skins) without having to restart. I already added a Theme submenu to the Layout menu in a recent commit, which will be even better when you're not prompted to restart when you try to change the theme. Hopefully after I'm done, we can get some renewed interest in people designing more themes.

drdev wrote:I've mentioned this in other threads, but I'm already working towards this. The recently committed ItemManager control will eventually support displaying cards in either list view or card view (and support filtering), and once I get it working in Deck Editor, I plan to make all the places we show a list of cards on the Match screen use the ItemManager instead. The control is being designed to be flexible enough to work with and display lists of other item types besides cards as well, such as decks.

Sounds great - any sample screen shots to look at yet?

Cheers,
Steve.

correioalternativo wrote:I suggest Card Zoomer/Preview shows Card Detail information: name, cost, type, x/y, ID, set, text etc.

This was just mentioned in the main Features Request thread so I might as well mention it here since it is something I intend to work on - whether it is an update to the Zoomer itself or a new component that wraps the Zoomer I have yet to decide. This will make the zoomer function viable when a card has no associated image.

Cheers,
Steve

spr wrote:

Max mtg wrote:If you are plannig to seriously improve the UI, please, consider getting us rid of tabs at all.

In my idea of a best UI, the battlefield is a 2D space (or even 3D space - using jOGL) that can be panned and zoomed, while all these PlayAreas we currently have are pure evil.

You mean a bit like Incantus? Being able to pan and zoom the play area looks nice but I don't think it is that suited to a card game. I think Forge's interface is basically sound it just needs streamlining and probably a few fancy 2D/3D effects.

Also, I find areas like the log helpful but I would imagine the more advanced players would prefer a "purer" experience that is closer to playing in the real world without all the extraneous info. I think an option to hide or dock selected areas to the screen edge would help in that regard.

Cheers,
Steve.

Probably, like Incantus, but more loike Google maps! The battlefield that is not divided into individual parts for each player that would look like a real world table. Any extra panels are fine to be docked on screen edges.

You are going to need zoom feature anyway to fit all cards into view, and as for pan, now ugly scrollbars perform that task. Dragging the view with mouse (like you drag the map in web-based maps) would replace the scroll bars for good.

spr wrote:

drdev wrote:I've mentioned this in other threads, but I'm already working towards this. The recently committed ItemManager control will eventually support displaying cards in either list view or card view (and support filtering), and once I get it working in Deck Editor, I plan to make all the places we show a list of cards on the Match screen use the ItemManager instead. The control is being designed to be flexible enough to work with and display lists of other item types besides cards as well, such as decks.

Sounds great - any sample screen shots to look at yet?

Cheers,
Steve.

I'm currently working on getting search/filters into the ItemManager. They'll work and look similar to the current filters Card Catalog on Deck Editor but with the ability to show/hide them with a button and the ability to customize a Boolean expression the determines how multiple filters are evaluated together. Right now, we always just "AND" all filters together, but I'm going to make that configurable, so you could construct the following filter:

1: Card Color = red
2: Card Type = creature
3: Type contains "Goblin"
4: Text contains "Haste"
Filter expression: 1 AND 2 AND (3 OR 4)

The result being you'd only see red creatures that are either a Goblin or have haste. Alternatively, you could take the same 4 filters and change the expression to "1 AND 2 AND NOT 3 AND 4" if you want all red creatures with haste that aren't Goblins (maybe you just don't like Goblins?), or even 1 AND 2 AND NOT (3 OR 4) if you want all red creatures besides Goblins and haste creatures.

If that sounds intimidating, please know I'm building it to be powerful but still easy to use for the most common searches, as this expression will be built automatically as you add and remove filters, pulling in "AND" between filters by default, and then you can tweak the expression later if desired.

As for screenshots, I haven't started working on card view yet, I'll maybe post some if I make any progress.