CardCharacteristic and Clone/Morph

[friarsol]

So I haven't looked at the CardCharacteristic class that was written up for Double Faced/Flip Cards cards, but can we use this for Clone and friends, or for Morph? I know we have some general problems with Clone and Friends, especially in future matches.

I was thinking if the Clone cards could be cast as themselves, but as they ETB, you would choose a Creature, the Card Characteristic would be filled out based off the chosen Card as the "alternate state" and the state would be changed. This way when they would leave the battlefield they would revert back to the original card once they were in the new zone. In theory, we wouldn't need any of the mess about remembering cloned cards or what not. And hopefully, this would resolve any issues with the ghosted Clone cards that we see reports about occasionally. (http://cardforge.org/bugz/view.php?id=58)

Similarly, Morph cards would have an Alternate state of Morph. They could be cast in their normal state, for their normal costs, with their normal attributes. Or they could be cast for 3 as the alternate morph state. And they would be able to unmorph from their Alternate state to their normal state by paying their morph cost. This would solve the issue where a morph spell is being reduced by Medallions, and revealing the unmorphed color.

Is this feasible?

[Hellfish]

The problem with Clone cards is that if a cloner clones a Flip card it is able to flip and would need 3 states total which can't currently be handled. Same problem if a flip card gains Morph or is turned face down by Ixidron and the like. Maybe 'reserve' states 2 and 3 for clone/morph respectively?

[friarsol]

Maybe instead of Alternate states having an array of states that are just numbers that don't mean anything, it could be a dictionary.

State['Original']
State['Flip']
State['Transform']
State['Clone']
State['Morph']

Again, not sure how it's setup, so not sure the feasibility, but if we could reuse this piece of code, it seems like Clone does similar things to me, which would simplify that code a bunch.

[moomarc]

While either of you are looking at this section, would it be feasable/desirable to include licids (Tempest Block) with these. They're most similar to flip cards in that they have two distinct characteristic sets but have the base card properties of the original state, and they're simply not scriptable with the current code. It would only allow 12 additional cards though so don't know if it's worth it.

[Hellfish]

It will make it easier to implement Licids, if nothing else.
I've successfully rewritten Clone to use this system and still have dfcs and flips work (Still have the bug where the cloner doesn't get an image assigned though..) but I'll refrain from commiting until I/we/somebody figure out how cloners that grant additional characteristics (such as Vesuvan Doppelganger, Evil Twin,Phyrexian Metamorph or Quicksilver Gargantuan) interact with the flipped side of a flip card they clone. For instance, if a Quicksilver Gargantuan clones a Bushi Tenderfoot, the Bushi clone will be a 7/7. If the Bushi clone then flips, will the resulting Kenzo the Hardhearted be a 7/7?

[friarsol]

I'll check on the ruling for this situation and get back to you. Thanks for getting the ball rolling Hellfish.

[Hellfish]

I've just posted a question on draw3cards for it: http://draw3cards.com/questions/7061/ab ... -and-flips

If you find an answer, please pop it in there as well, for the good of mankind!

[jeffwadsworth]

That answer to your question looks pretty solid to me, not to mention that it makes sense.

[friarsol]

I'm not so sure, an external effect is something like Giant Growth. It's still the same "being" so it wouldn't "forget" that it was Growth'd. I believe this has more to do with layers.

As for Cloned Transformers, the creature can trigger it's transforming, but the clone doesn't copy what it would transform into, so the effect triggers, and resolves. But when it resolves, nothing happens.

Edit for clarification: Since a Clone isn't a Double-Faced Card, it can't show it's second Face.

[friarsol]

I'm thinking the overriding base trait will be on the flipped card. Here's a similar scenario:

Code: Select all

503.3. The copy’s copiable values become the copied information, as modified by the copy’s status (see rule 510). Objects that copy the object will use the new copiable values.

    Example:
    Vesuvan Doppelganger reads, “As Vesuvan Doppelganger comes into play, you may choose a creature in play. If you do, Vesuvan Doppelganger comes into play as a copy of that creature except for its color and gains ‘At the beginning of your upkeep, you may have this creature become a copy of target creature except for its color. If you do, this creature gains this ability.’” A Vesuvan Doppelganger comes into play as a copy of Grizzly Bears (a 2/2 green creature with no abilities). Then a Clone comes into play as a copy of the Doppelganger. The Clone is a 2/2 blue Bear named Grizzly Bears that has the Doppelganger’s upkeep-triggered ability.

    Example:
    Tomoya the Revealer (a flipped flip card) becomes a copy of Nezumi Shortfang (an unflipped flip card). Tomoya’s characteristics become the characteristics of Stabwhisker the Odious, which is the flipped version of Nezumi Shortfang.


[Hellfish]

Alright, yeah, differing sources; same conclusion.I think I'm going to go for it, it's just one function call to remove otherwise. Thanks, Sol!

[friarsol]

Just at a cursory glance at the code changes it's looking good. We'll try to recreate some of the bugs regarding duplicated cards, and see if they are fixed when I get home tonight.

At the very least, hopefully this simplifies these interactions that were longstanding issues.

[Sloth]

Thank you for the new turn face down functionality Hellfish.

EDIT: Was Ixidron unfinished? There was some hardcoded stuff, but also some script. Isn't the script enough?

[Hellfish]

Ixidron is finished in script, I just forgot to remove the code for the first revision.

Another couple of things: Abilities seem to be doubling up for DFCs and I will revise AF_SetState to have a single Mode parameter rather than several parameters for "Transform" et. al.

Will hopefully get to it tomorrow.

[Iran]

I do not know if it helps, but I found some sites about this subject:

Vesuvan Doppelganger
http://magiccards.info/query?q=%21Vesuv ... rd&s=cname

Vesuvan Shapeshifter
http://magiccards.info/query?q=%21Vesuv ... rd&s=cname

Mirror-Sigil Sergeant + Vesuvan Shapeshifter http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/show ... apeshifter

Double-faced cards
http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Double-faced_cards

Quicksilver Gargantuan and Myr Propagator
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... #478144305

Quicksilver Gargantuan and Mirror-Sigil Sergeant

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... #474345965