Challenges Bug

[frankzappa]

"Dude" grow up will you? I've only made TWO posts in the past two months or something, and I haven't said I "hate" anything. You just sound like a stupid little boy who can't handle someone having something negative to say about something you obviously hold far too dearly... Get a life, and stop trying to troll me. I don't care what you have to say.

[stassy]

If he didn't care about challengers he would not try to retune the Challenge mode, so now please let's chill down because it's one of the few forum with mature enough people to not start a flamewar.

[aww1979]

Start with the challenges that look easiest. Some will take you weeks of playing, but many can be beaten in an evening or two, so don't start with the hardest ones first. I'd start with (not necessarily in this order) Tribal Trials, Vanguard Vengeance, That's Big, There Can Only Be One, Master Warlock, Instant Gratification, and Easy as 123. Those are the easiest ones in the list.

5:1 challenge and Pit Fighting are difficult to beat, but they have extremely useful rewards for other challenges, which make things a lot easier. Replaying some of the challenges now in the tutorial thread (in Decks & Strategy) is making me realize just how valuable Serum Powder was in some decks, as challenges I beat in a single evening are taking days to beat without it, and some I have not yet beat without it.

I'd also be happy to help with decklists for the challenges. I've beaten all of them except Land Ho, which I was only able to beat due to a (long since fixed) bug, so it wasn't a legitimate win, but I have made it to the last round of that one fairly.

[jatill]

aww-
Have you beaten Super Mulligan without the Contract bug?

[frankzappa]

If he didn't care about challengers he would not try to retune the Challenge mode

Retune? Yea right. He went through them and basically said, "easy, easy, very easy, stupidly easy, easy". Pure nerd ego stroking. In other words, all the people who complain "once a month", are obviously just not good enough, and should kneel before the mighty Jatill.

If it takes a pro like aww1979 "weeks of playing" to beat the early ones and even the easiest take "an evening or two" (playing them almost constantly no doubt) then it's in no way easy. It's also not casual friendly. I played MMORPG's for years, so I know all about games that demand repetition and test your patience and perseverance, but if you have to play the same few challenges over and over and over again, in the hope that some day, some twist of fate occurs where you finally win, then it's just silly / boring / un-fun.

Not to mention the fact that this is only possible after an international effort of deck sharing and tweaking. Seems to me the challenges were made to be completely unbeatable to the average player, and only hardcore players who are also willing to copy deck ideas and spend many long sessions grinding through them, have a chance.

Retuning is a waste of time. They should just be challenges for those who want to take them on, not for card unlocks. Time would be better spent trying to make the game work ok on Win7 and have a decent AI.

[thedrigo]

Am I the only one who's annoyed at this guy's rants? I sincerely apologize to the rest of the community and mean no disrespect to the forum, but I have a fundamental problem with people like this guy, who demand that something be changed or something be adjusted just because they don't like it. IMHO, the rules have been clearly laid out by the developers according to their ideas and THEIR RIGHT as creators, and have been implemented as they see fit; keeping in mind that they are doing this on their own time FOR FREE, I think it's only fair for the rest of us, who haven't really done much more than download the updates and play, to respect those conditions.

As for how difficult the challenges really are, there are TONS of threads in the Decks & Strategies sections with useful insight as to how to beat each challenge. I've beaten most of them myself and have provided my deck ideas, whenever possible, to the community. It's certainly not impossible and it has DEFINITELY gotten easier with the new cards that have been released recently. For instance, I was never able to unlock Serum Powder but was still able to to beat all the other ones except for Programmer's Delight, 5:1, Land Ho! and, sadly, I still haven't been able to figure out an answer for the 10th round of Magic: The Puzzling. With all the help you can get from the Deck section, it certainly is NOT impossible, like this guy says.

Again, no disrespect to the forum, the mods or the community in general.

[aww1979]

It kind of annoys me too, but for me, the solution is not to criticize, but to try and help, hence my suggestions for easier challenges to attempt first, and some of the spoiler threads I've contributed to in 'decks and strategy'.

For the record, I'm not a 'pro', though I have played magic an awful lot, and have since revised/fallen empires, so I suppose I've seen just about everything, though I'm not very familiar with newer cards. I also support what jatill has done with challenge mode and what the community in general has done for the game. (though in the last update I was kind of pissed at some of the cards that were cut, like Serra Angel or Rock Hydra, when there's still unplayable cards to cut)

[aww1979]

aww-
Have you beaten Super Mulligan without the Contract bug?

I beat it with a legit dredge deck not long after you coded dredge. I haven't beat it yet in the tutorials thread.

[Gargaroz]

I also support what jatill has done with challenge mode and what the community in general has done for the game. (though in the last update I was kind of pissed at some of the cards that were cut, like Serra Angel or Rock Hydra, when there's still unplayable cards to cut)

There were amongst the most "painful" cuts I had to do, but I'm really interested in what "unplayable" cards I left off. Keep in mind that I tried to "save" as much as possible for each "tribe" (so Griffins, which are useful for Programmer's Delight Challenge, and Minotaurs too).
And, you know, Serra Angel and Rock Hydra are vastly sub-par compared to the power-level of today's cards.
However, I respect your opinion, as I too love old cards and ancient sets. And I'm working on a surprise for all of you.

[frankzappa]

Am I the only one who's annoyed at this guy's rants? I sincerely apologize to the rest of the community and mean no disrespect to the forum, but I have a fundamental problem with people like this guy, who demand that something be changed or something be adjusted just because they don't like it. IMHO, the rules have been clearly laid out by the developers according to their ideas and THEIR RIGHT as creators, and have been implemented as they see fit; keeping in mind that they are doing this on their own time FOR FREE, I think it's only fair for the rest of us, who haven't really done much more than download the updates and play, to respect those conditions.

As for how difficult the challenges really are, there are TONS of threads in the Decks & Strategies sections with useful insight as to how to beat each challenge. I've beaten most of them myself and have provided my deck ideas, whenever possible, to the community. It's certainly not impossible and it has DEFINITELY gotten easier with the new cards that have been released recently. For instance, I was never able to unlock Serum Powder but was still able to to beat all the other ones except for Programmer's Delight, 5:1, Land Ho! and, sadly, I still haven't been able to figure out an answer for the 10th round of Magic: The Puzzling. With all the help you can get from the Deck section, it certainly is NOT impossible, like this guy says.

Again, no disrespect to the forum, the mods or the community in general.

I find your rants about my rants far more pathetic. I haven't demanded anything, all I'm doing is criticising. You are just a typical little fanboy who can't bear to hear a bad word said about something he loves far too much. They have the right to do whatever they want with their game, and I have the right to criticise it.

And I never said it was impossible, I said impossible for the average player. But go ahead and keep on flogging that dead horse.

[aww1979]

There were amongst the most "painful" cuts I had to do, but I'm really interested in what "unplayable" cards I left off.

There aren't as many as I'd thought after looking again, but yeah, a lot of the ones I'd been looking at were minotaurs, griffins, and walls, which could be valuable for the programmer's delight challenge. There are a few others that I have a rather low opinion of, like Backfire, Flame Rift, Goblin Rock Sled, Island Fish Jasconius, Lava Axe, Wayfarer's Bauble, or the set of lands like Azorius Chancery that I think are worse than some you cut.

Also, the ante cards (though I think there was some problem cutting those) and specific colour hosers that are unlikely to be maindecked, like Flashfires or Deathgrip, though they have value in sealed deck. (and shandalar, but any changes made here don't affect that)

I will definitely admit that I am looking at this from the point of view of constructed, and more specifically at type 1 (vintage) decks, and so I haven't really given much thought to how limited would be affected, as I play sealed deck less than once a month. I can certainly see something like Blue Elemental Blast being used in game 2 of a sealed deck match, though, but I'd never put it in a constructed deck.

There are also lots of other cards that I've never used, based on personal preferences, but that I can respect other people will enjoy and use, like Deprive, Masticore, Chain Reaction, Ulasht, the Hate Seed, or Cunning Sparkmage. They don't suck, but I'll never play them outside of sealed deck because I just don't like them. That, however, is no reason to cut them for the whole community, so I don't mind seeing them stay.

[Wronskian]

I agree with aww1979, except for Flame Rift,that goes into burning decks and Azorius Chancery, that is really good with Fastbond and Landfall

[Gargaroz]

We're a bit OT, but who cares :

Backfire --> Is an originale effect that only this card have in Blue. So I like to keep it.
Flame Rift --> Nice burn spell
Goblin Rock Sled --> This could go
Island Fish Jasconius --> This will be one of the future, painful cuts. I loved you, useless big fish
Lava Axe --> Yeah, this one can go too.
Wayfarer's Bauble --> We got a more powerful version, so this one can go too.
Azorius Chancery and friends : I strongly disapprove on this. It was a great set of lands, they're vital in EDH and associated challenges and allow nice combos with Landfall. However, the AI must be improved. I'll do it in the future.
All the non-creatures color-hosers : In my original plans, it was a group of cards that had to go first, but then I was intrigued by the idea of a Challenge that exploits them. But seeing that most people doesn't like Challenges, they will be the next to go.

[aww1979]

Island Fish Jasconius --> This will be one of the future, painful cuts. I loved you, useless big fish

I remember taking a ~150 card monoblue deck to my first tournament back in the mid 90s and that card was in there :p

I'll concede the point about Backfire; that is definitely a unique ability, though I still disagree on Flame Rift except in games with more than two players.

[jatill]

We're a bit OT, but who cares :
Wayfarer's Bauble --> We got a more powerful version, so this one can go too.
Azorius Chancery and friends : I strongly disapprove on this. It was a great set of lands, they're vital in EDH and associated challenges and allow nice combos with Landfall. However, the AI must be improved. I'll do it in the future.

What's the better version of Bauble? I don't think one exists (maybe you're thinking of Expedition Map, but it's not the same). I still use bauble in a lot of decks, especially ones like mono-black that can't otherwise ramp.

The bouncelands should get a lot better with the AI fix implemented.