unreactive AI & AI related problems

[0rion79]

If you didn't notice it yet, I've seen that the game suffers a congestion and related slowdown when too many cards are removed from the game and/or when it has to keep the count of cards in graveyard for Treshold ability. I don't know if it is a coincidence, but when I've seen the game slowing down, the AI also stoped playing cards from hand with less than 8 lands on the battlefield each.

[Shantak]

If you didn't notice it yet, I've seen that the game suffers a congestion and related slowdown when too many cards are removed from the game and/or when it has to keep the count of cards in graveyard for Treshold ability.

When playing with my EDH deck that killed AI by milling, the game really slowed down when there was something like 50+ cards in graveyard. If I removed the graveyard with Tormod's Crypt, the slowdown seemed to disappear.

[Gargaroz]

Well, the slowdowns are there for sure, and are probably a result of the new coded cards. But I couln't see them disappear until we have a complete source code to improve.

[aww1979]

I have noticed the game slowing down and even locking up lately, and while I haven't been able to find a pattern to it yet, I did notice that it usually froze right after declaring attackers. It also had the most issues with a dredge deck I built, which of course has dozens of cards in the graveyard every time you play. I'm going to play a few casual games with my computer with several different decks and see if a pattern emerges.

[0rion79]

You know, I've used the cheats to remove Rules Engine from the game when it begun to run slowly. The result was just great: the game came back to its original speed.
Most likely, that card is congested by holding too many effects.

[stassy]

We all know the slowdown are dues to the new cards and their coding, the problem is without Rules Engine we are back to 2k cards...

[0rion79]

Of course. But then I wonder if we can any alternative solution. EG: whenever a card that uses rules engine uses it, rules engine is automatically placed into the game as a Vanguard Avatar.
Or, maybe, if we'll ever break the 2K cards limit, we could code new effwects, as Ifh-Bíff Efreet 's One. Just some suggestions.

[aww1979]

I've noticed that Platinum Angel seems to be one that once it hits play, even if it's turn 3 or 4, the AI just quits doing anything. One game I played the angel early with Tinker, then cast Echoing Truth to bounce two one-mana goblins, and it didn't even replay them next turn, or do anything else, all game.

[Salbei]

You know, I've used the cheats to remove Rules Engine from the game when it begun to run slowly. The result was just great: the game came back to its original speed.
Most likely, that card is congested by holding too many effects.

Whow i just tried that.Nice catch. I almost forgot how fast the game could be.

What you said makes sense.I don´t know the code used for it but i can imagine that the REC is mainly doing checks for each card that is using it (lets say Cabal Therapy),maybe even ones that aren´t even in your deck.Just an uneducated guess.
It would make sense that it would slightly slow down the game when the game checks if Cabal Therapy is in your graveyard and the other conditions are met.Maybe the checks are made even when the card itself isn´t in the deck.
What if the REC constantly checks not only for Cabal Therapy but for every single other card that is using the REC (dredge, flashback, morph , flash...) and does that all the time ?
That list of cards using the Rules Engine is pretty huge by now.Would explain the major slowdown for sure.
Well that is just a speculation.Can´t really say that without knowing the actual used code.

That thing does so many things pretty much every part of it could be causing trouble.Is it possible to split the card up into like 10 different cards to "narrow" down the problematic code parts that cause the massive slowdown and maybe even the lockups ?

Or maybe it is just "overused" and plain bottlenecks everything else.

OT:
I don´t know if it is possible to do, but could things like spell count and creature count be worked next to the mana symbols (Mishras Workshop for example is using a second row to show its mana that can only be used to play Artifacts).
Especially the creature count (for Vengevine) seems to be pointless, its one thing to keep track of 10+ spells for a storm deck, but everybody should be able to count to two

Even in a gamestate like this the AI keeps playing its cards and lands without any trouble. I removed both RECs at the very beginning of the game and it worked like a charm.

pic | Open

Been quite a while since i had so much fun.

[jatill]

it's not that dumb, but it does need to constantly check your hand and your graveyard for cards that might have abilities. It could probably be made smarter.
In any case, you can also turn the rules engine off via the config file, if you want it off for a longer period of time.

[Gargaroz]

I got a sudden idea : what about making the REC activated ability ever-usable and making the associated checks only on request ? So, the ability will ever be enlighted, but if you click on it and never is available, nothing happens. This could allow some "on-spot" checks and ease the number of cycles the REC has to make (I could name Cycling / Landcycling / Transmute, Flashback / Retrace / Unheart and cards in graveyard that can be activated only on upkeep).
However, some stuff has to remain ever-active, such as Storm Count and Trap Conditions, but I could bet the overall game will run faster.

By the way, apart from REC, every card that has an ability with "Whenever ( a generic type of card)(is played / comes into play / leaves play / goes in a graveyard) do something" or permanetly adds an ability that is not coded in the engine (such as Deathtouch, Lifelink, Indestructible and so on), the game will slow a little. If many of these cards are in play together, a major slowdown is normal.

[jatill]

The downside of this approach is that you'll be asked to pass priority all the time, even if you have no valid effects. That would annoy me a lot. But then again, so would crashes. Luckily, I don't really gets crashes on XP (maybe 1/50 games max)

[Gargaroz]

Yep, I thought of that dowside, Jatill, and there it is.
But I experienced slowdowns too, especially with cards that can be activated in graveyard.
I raraly experienced crashes on my XP, but some "the game is thinking forever" are there, especially with the newer cards.
Oh well, I hope one day we'll have a decent source code and all these trouble will go.

[0rion79]

Just to know, would it be that problematic to add new effects, as the origial ones for Nether Shadow or Ifh-Bif Efreet? They appear only when needed and vanish when the card is no longer in the game. I'm not expert at all, but maybe that could be a better solution. Rules engine is still a "must be" but we have to find a way to lower its burden.

[Aswan jaguar]

I don't get a lot crushes either,the slowdown is annoying,but the biggest problem for me is the unreactive AI.When it stops playing and you have a win?Its like AI concedes most of the time.No fun there.