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AI card base value

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AI card base value

Postby stassy » 18 Nov 2012, 05:55

Current status of cards ranking by expansion

| Open
Ranked
Arabian Nights
Antiquities
Legends
The Dark
Fallen Empires
Homelands
Ice Age
Alliance
Coldsnap
Mirage
Visions
Weatherlight
Tempest
Stronghold
Exodus
Urza's Saga
Urza's Legacy
Urza's Destiny
Invasion
Planeshift
Apocalypse
Mercadian Masques
Nemesis
Prophecy
Odyssey
Torment
Judgment
Onslaught
Legions
Scourge
Mirrodin
Darksteel
Fifth Dawn
Champions of Kamigawa
Betrayers of Kamigawa
Saviors of Kamigawa
Ravnica: City of Guilds
Guildpact
Dissension
Time Spiral
Planar Chaos
Future Sight
Lorwyn
Morningtide
Shadowmoor
Eventide
Shards of Alara
Conflux
Alara Reborn
Zendikar
Worldwake
Rise of the Eldrazi
Magic 2010
Magic 2011
Magic 2012
Scars of Mirrodin
Mirrodin Besieged
New Phyrexia
Innistrad
Dark Ascension
Avacyn Restored
Return to Ravnica
Gatecrash
Duel Decks: Izzet vs Golgari
From the Vaults: Realms
Magic 2013
Dragon's Maze
Planechase
Planechase 2012
Commander
M14
Theros
Commander 2013
Born of the Gods
Dragons of Tarkir
Magic Origins
Battle For Zendikar
Oath of the Gatewatch
Shadows over Innistrad
Eldritch Moon
In progress
-
Current ranking system

Rank 5 Filler cards, vanilla creatures with no abilities
Rank 9 Bugged currently unfixable card reduced as vanilla or unusable by AI
Rank 10 Lands and mana fixers
Rank 20 Average Creatures, with drawback or in need of heavy support to be efficient, color/type killer, heavy mana cost, situational efficiency
Rank 40 Medium quality Removal, temporary staller, land searcher, small damager
Rank 50 Above Average Creatures with at least one benefit and no drawback, cheap mana cost and giving support
Rank 60 Strong Spells, global range, multipes uses, token generator, creature retriever, counterspells, support planeswalker
Rank 70 Very strong Creatures but still in need of support or not game winner, global advantage/support
Rank 80 High Quality removal, no drawback, planeswalker with removal abilities
Rank 100 Bombs that potentially win the game on their own

I choose rank 9 because there is no 9 in others rank so I can search faster for them
Please do note that the objective of this ranking is first to make draft mode playable as fast as possible, so I will only fill cards with no AI card base value or with AI card base value of 0, there are many cases where this value seems wrong (like Darksteel Colossus set to 1) but please bear with it until the whole cards are covered, then we will starting to rank cards better.

---

Gargaroz wrote:About the AI's splitting, it's all linked to a field in Manalink.csv that tells the AI "how good" is a card. Since is leaved to "0" for a long list to card (it has to be inserted manually and it's a really boring work to do, if someone will volounteer, it wouls be great). I'll try to solve this though coding, but it will be still clumsy.
How do we have to tell a card is "good"?
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Re: Fact or Fiction

Postby Gargaroz » 18 Nov 2012, 15:46

It's completely up to you. We all know that Shivan Dragon is better than Brushwagg, but for other cards, it's really a matter of tastes.
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- Current / medium term task: adjusting the code for making Misdirection and such usable
- Long term task: inserting all the good stuff I left out from the "Golden Years" mod
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Re: Fact or Fiction

Postby Aswan jaguar » 18 Nov 2012, 16:09

What about the rating of users on Wizzards of the coast.1\2 to 5 stars?Although they have 4 stars for Savannah Lions. :lol: so forget about it.

Stassy this is guide by Jatill with values original cards had as example he wrote that on the wiki for coding cards:

AI Base Value determines how high the AI picks the card in limited, among other things. Use the following scale:

100-200 Bombs that potentially win the game on their own (Loxodon Warhammer, Meloku, Fireball)
80-99 High Quality removal (Terror, Swords to Plowshares)
70-79 Very strong Creatures (Air Elemental, Serra Angel)
60-69 Strong Spells (Tidings)
50-59 Above Average Creatures (Durkwood Boars, Prodigal Sorcerer)
40-49 Medium quality Removal (ex: Immolation)
20-39 Average Creatures
10-19 Lands and mana fixers
1-9 Filler cards (ex: Grizzly Bears)

I want to add that no original cards or just one used other numbers than *5.
5,10,15,20,etc I don't know if that way are better understood-recognised by AI or was easier for Microprose Developers.
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Re: Fact or Fiction

Postby stassy » 18 Nov 2012, 16:43

The issue is that some cards are mediocre alone, but in combo they are devastating...well, I guess the wiki guide can be a start.
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Re: Fact or Fiction

Postby stassy » 29 Nov 2012, 04:52

So I had a peek at the Manalink.csv and I have severals questions before trying to fill it out :

- What editor must be used in order to open, modify and save Manalink.csv? I know that Microsoft Excel modify the csv structure so it might not a good idea, can I use LibreOffice?

- The column to modify is the one labelled BO | AI Base Value right?

- Should old cards tagged as 0 stay as it is or upped to 1-9 (Animate Wall for example)?
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Re: Fact or Fiction

Postby Aswan jaguar » 29 Nov 2012, 05:04

- I don't think it is a good idea to change values from original cards.As ranking is not fully understand.Fill only cards from new sets that don't have any values there.

-For me as I wrote in a post above original cards only used *5 numbers 5,10,15,20,.... maybe it is better to keep that,too.

-As for what program to use to change the values excell should be fine (Sonic can probably save or change it to what is needed)but you better ask Sonic for that via pm.
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Re: Fact or Fiction

Postby stassy » 29 Nov 2012, 05:43

So that mean filler cards don't get subranking (as between 1-9 there is only 5)? How will I be able to rank Barbary Apes from Forest Bear or Gray Ogre then? :mrgreen:
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Re: Fact or Fiction

Postby Gargaroz » 29 Nov 2012, 13:26

Shouln't we move this last part of the thread in the "development" forum ?
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- Long term task: inserting all the good stuff I left out from the "Golden Years" mod
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Re: AI card base value

Postby stassy » 29 Nov 2012, 16:19

Done.

Waiting for Sonic answers then I will begin the value filling starting from latest to earlier expansion.

Edit: I will have to finish to test en 2nd part of RTR since recent expansions cards are much more subtle than their predecessors in ranking term
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Re: AI card base value

Postby stassy » 04 Dec 2012, 05:45

Ok so just one question before beginning : Do we rate cards for their potential or their current state in ML3?

A typical example is Dryad Militant which is a potential sideboard 50-59 rank medium above average creature because it can shutdown many decks but in ML3 as its ability is not working it's downgraded to 1-9 vanilla creature...so rank 50 or rank 1 ?
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Re: AI card base value

Postby Aswan jaguar » 04 Dec 2012, 14:58

For me if it acts like a vanilla creature should be valued as vanilla creature as the AI has to evaluate it's true value not the potential.

Of course,it would be nice if you could make a list of such cards in a text editor maybe, to have such cards listed in case they get coded properly so they are easy to track and revalued.
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Re: AI card base value

Postby stassy » 06 Dec 2012, 12:15

What about confirmed cards and old confirmed non fixed cards yet?
Currently I am tagging unfixable/unusable with red background, shall I do the same for the above in yellow for example?

Anyway here is my RTR cards ranking, attached is an xls file with sorting respectively by rank and by name, the following 2 tabs are text spoiler and rank explanation which I will show here:

Rank 5 Filler cards, vanilla creatures with no abilities
Rank 9 Bugged currently unfixable card reduced as vanilla or unusable by AI
Rank 10 Lands and mana fixers
Rank 20 Average Creatures, with drawback or in need of heavy support to be efficient, heavy mana cost
Rank 40 Medium quality Removal, temporary staller, land searcher, small damager
Rank 50 Above Average Creatures with at least one benefit and no drawback, cheap mana cost and giving support
Rank 60 Strong Spells, global range, multipes uses, token generator, creature retriever, counterspells, color/type killer, support planeswalker
Rank 70 Very strong Creatures but still in need of support or not game winner, global advantage/support
Rank 80 High Quality removal, no drawback, planeswalker with removal abilities
Rank 100 Bombs that potentially win the game on their own

I choose rank 9 because there is no 9 in others rank so I can search faster for them
Rank 5 | Open
Catacomb Slug
Cobblebrute
Golgari Longlegs


Rank 9 | Open
Dryad Militant


Rank 10 | Open
Axebane Guardian
Azorius Guildgate
Azorius Keyrune
Blood Crypt
Gatecreeper Vine
Golgari Guildgate
Golgari Keyrune
Chromatic Lantern
Grove of the Guardian
Hallowed Fountain
Izzet Guildgate
Izzet Keyrune
Overgrown Tomb
Rakdos Guildgate
Rakdos Keyrune
Rogue's Passage
Selesnya Guildgate
Selesnya Keyrune
Steam Vents
Temple Garden
Transguild Promenade


Rank 20 | Open
Armory Guard
Azorius Arrester
Batterhorn
Bazaar Krovod
Bellows Lizard
Brushstrider
Centaur Healer
Centaur's Herald
Concordia Pegasus
Crosstown Courier
Daggerdrome Imp
Dark Revenant
Dead Reveler
Doorkeeper
Faerie Impostor
Gore-House Chainwalker
Hussar Patrol
Lobber Crew
Ogre Jailbreaker
Rakdos Cackler
Rakdos Shred-Freak
Selesnya Sentry
Sewer Shambler
Seller of Songbirds
Stonefare Crocodile
Street Sweeper
Sunspire Griffin
Tavern Swindler
Tower Drake
Towering Indrik
Trained Caracal
Trestle Troll
Vassal Soul
Viashino Racketeer


Rank 40 | Open
Annihilating Fire
Arrest
Auger Spree
Blustersquall
Call of the Conclave
Chemister's Trick
Chorus of Might
Chronic Flooding
Civic Saber
Codex Shredder
Cremate
Druid's Deliverance
Dynacharge
Electrickery
Essence Backlash
Ethereal Armor
Explosive Impact
Eyes in the Skies
Fall of the Gavel
Goblin Rally
Launch Party
Pithing Needle
Pyroconvergence
Racecourse Fury
Savage Surge
Search the City
Search Warrant
Security Blockade
Shrieking Affliction
Skull Rend
Slime Molding
Stab Wound
Survey the Wreckage
Tablet of the Guilds
Teleportal
Thoughtflare
Urban Burgeoning


Rank 50 | Open
Aquus Steed
Archweaver
Ash Zealot
Azorius Justiciar
Azor's Elocutors
Blistercoil Weird
Bloodfray Giant
Carnival Hellsteed
Chaos Imps
Corpsejack Menace
Cryptborn Horror
Deadbridge Goliath
Deathrite Shaman
Drainpipe Vermin
Dreg Mangler
Drudge Beetle
Fencing Ace
Frostburn Weird
Gobbling Ooze
Goblin Electromancer
Golgari Decoy
Grim Roustabout
Guttersnipe
Hellhole Flailer
Hover Barrier
Isperia's Skywatch
Izzet Staticaster
Judge's Familiar
Keening Apparition
Korozda Guildmage
Korozda Monitor
Lotleth Troll
Lyev Skyknight
Mercurial Chemister
Minotaur Aggressor
New Prahv Guildmage
Nivix Guildmage
Nivmagus Elemental
Oak Street Innkeeper
Pack Rat
Palisade Giant
Perilous Shadow
Phantom General
Precinct Captain
Rakdos Ragemutt
Rakdos Ringleader
Risen Sanctuary
Rix Maadi Guildmage
Rubbleback Rhino
Runewing
Skyline Predator
Skymark Roc
Slitherhead
Sluiceway Scorpion
Slum Reaper
Soulsworn Spirit
Splatter Thug
Stealer of Secrets
Tenement Crasher
Thrill-Kill Assassin
Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage
Voidwielder
Volatile Rig
Wayfaring Temple
Wild Beastmaster
Zanikev Locust


Rank 60 | Open
Assassin's Strike
Azorius Charm
Collective Blessing
Common Bond
Coursers' Accord
Cyclonic Rift
Death's Presence
Destroy the Evidence
Detention Sphere
Deviant Glee
Dispel
Cancel
Downsize
Dramatic Rescue
Epic Experiment
Firemind's Foresight
Golgari Charm
Grave Betrayal
Grisly Salvage
Growing Ranks
Guild Feud
Havoc Festival
Heroes' Reunion
Horncaller's Chant
Inaction Injunction
Inspiration
Izzet Charm
Jace, Architect of Thought
Jarad's Orders
Knightly Valor
Mana Bloom
Martial Law
Mind Rot
Mizzium Mortars
Mizzium Skin
Paralyzing Grasp
Psychic Spiral
Pursuit of Flight
Rakdos Charm
Rest in Peace
Righteous Authority
Rites of Reaping
Rootborn Defenses
Seek the Horizon
Selesnya Charm
Slaughter Games
Soul Tithe
Sphere of Safety
Street Spasm
Sundering Growth
Swift Justice
Syncopate
Traitorous Instinct
Treasured Find
Underworld Connections
Vandalblast


Rank 70 | Open
Archon of the Triumvirate
Armada Wurm
Desecration Demon
Hypersonic Dragon
Loxodon Smiter
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
Spawn of Rix Maadi
Sphinx of the Chimes
Terrus Wurm
Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
Utvara Hellkite


Rank 80 | Open
Dreadbore
Rakdos's Return
Sphinx's Revelation
Supreme Verdict
Trostani's Judgment
Ultimate Price
Vraska the Unseen


Rank 100 | Open
Isperia, Supreme Judge
Angel of Serenity
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Necropolis Regent
Rakdos, Lord of Riots
Worldspine Wurm


Feel free to suggest modifications or modify the xls file, I am not a mtg expert and the rank only reflect what I think the AI should rank cards.

Once the ranking is finalized, I plan to use an uber macro of my own to insert nearly automatically this ranking in the Manalink.csv, unless skymagic is still useable but I doubt so.

If this goes well, I would like to test the AI behavior and the others not so known areas in the csv with for example Fact or Fiction, does the csv to dat compiling tool in the magic_updater folder is enough to do it?
Attachments
R2R.xls
(162 KiB) Downloaded 360 times
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Re: AI card base value

Postby Aswan jaguar » 06 Jan 2013, 13:21

For the AI value don't have high expectations for AI evaluation on how to play the cards as mostly is used by Draft and Sealed mode (as Mok and Jatill mentioned) but in draft YES expect AI to select cards according to your evaluations.

I just regret I didn't mention that to you because cards that have really high value in certain decks and combined with other cards are not so valuable or just rubbish when they are drafted,like theme decks-cards like tribal cards-boosters.

Thank you very much for your work,stassy it is greatly appreciated.
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Re: AI card base value

Postby Aswan jaguar » 13 Jan 2013, 19:16

Stassy, as I discovered the AI card base value is essential for draft play as AI won't put cards with 0 value to his decks(AI values them as no good) and as a result AI fills the decks it makes with too many lands and so the decks can't be challenging.I believe AI certainly will appreciate your work and all of us who love draft,too.
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Re: AI card base value

Postby stassy » 23 Jan 2013, 17:01

Sadly after a few tests with a debugged Fact or Fiction I couldn't conclude of any lead on how the AI select defined cards, because the card effect itself does not show if AI choose some cards more than others (seems like it random select between the 5 cards and show 2 then 3 of them regardless of their AI base value.

Anyway here is the current status of the ranked cards by expansion :

Ranked
Innistrad
Dark Ascension
Avacyn Restored
Return to Ravnica
Duel Decks: Izzet vs Golgari
From the Vaults: Realms
Magic 2013
Ravnica: City of Guilds
In progress
Magic 2010
Magic 2011
Magic 2012
Edit: Nevermind, it seems to be that if the AI cast Fact or Fiction and if player clearly make pile with "good ranked cards" and "bad ranked cards" the AI will always choose the "good ranked cards" pile, guess at least it's a sign of progress... :mrgreen:
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