Input Required: What Constitutes A New Update!

[Bog Wraith]

We need a consensus of what constitutes a new update and who initiates it.
I think using the wiki list that jatill mentions would qualify those people on it as one's who could do this. I was reluctant to sticky the last 2 days updates because it seemed there were problems with them and they were very minor updates.

I don't want to belittle anyone's contribution or stifle their enthusiasm, but a better system has to be established for deciding on starting a new update. I think that in the meantime, these small incremental updates should be posted by the person responsible for them in the existing sticky.

So gentlemen, your input is required and a consensus is needed for guidelines for posting new updates that Huggy or I will change to sticky status while removing the replaced one from same.

Please keep all these discussions in this thread, and I want EVERYONE who has, wants or is even thinking about contributing to the update process to have their say!

[0rion79]

Well, BW, you already know how I think about this matter.
Using D&D therms, I'm a Lawful one and I like order even in therms or releases. I don't like very much the idea of anything external to this forum, but I have to admit that the Wiki is very good because any thread would get quickly too long and confused. Instead, one single page that can be refreshed is much better.

Now, I would like to point out that there must be ONLY ONE SOURCE for these kind of things and people have to respect it. I'm not angry at all with Evil Clone for the little problem (even because I did the same with LoneFox ) and I merged our works together quite easily but only because he did not made any big change to the game.
Instead, if the misunderstandment would have been with Harry or Jatill's mod (they are much more skilled than me), it would have been much more difficult and with an higher risk of making mistakes during the merging process.

Also, I have already told that I don't plan to make big cards anymore because it is too difficult, but I don't exclude to make some little patches only some and then to add easy-to-code cards as Tahngart or to make fixes to the CSV file (creature types, filters, sealed deck and so on) and I would really like to avoid such time-wasting events.

Last but not least, I would like to remember to everybody that we are not coding cards ONLY for ourselves anymore, but we are sharing a working product with the community TOO. And also that we have to learn to discuss about matters and to accept even things that we don't like but that are approved by the majority of this forum. We are making big numbers (both cards, new modders and forum members) and, if we don't learn to organize ourself, a rebel attitude would lead to chaos with a lot of problems that we don't need and that we can avoid. Here, I'm talking no more as Magic player but as professional job advisor.

Thanks for attention.

[Bog Wraith]

You make some very good points, a lot that I agree with.

However, let me make it clear that there still will be a separate update sticky for each new release, in what ever is finally decided in as what constitutes a new update and who/how it is decided. We're never going back to the way it was done at the old site!

There will not be one thread were all updates are "dumped" into. It doesn't work! It leads to chaos and confusion and frankly, it is impossible for non regular forum participants, i.e. folks who come here for the updates and don't post, to find things.
Hell, it gave me a frikin' nosebleed just trying to make sense of it all and with dealing with the constant confusion posted by most everyone in navigating to, and finding the latest update.

Thanks for getting this discussion going Orion!

Continue the input people!

[Huggybaby]

You could have a regular release schedule. If "official", stable, tested updates were released say every Saturday, it would put us non-coders on an exciting regular basis. We'd get used to getting our update fix at the same time every week. I haven't tried to keep up because untested interim updates can be trouble.

You could have two stickies, an a) update sticky and a b) release sticky. (Actually, I think that's what you're doing right now anyway.) Updates could be posted in the update sticky for say, one week. At the end of the week someone who knows what they're doing could roll everything up and release it in the new weekly release sticky. Bugs and test reports for the current release could be discussed in the release thread while discussion of new patches and their issues would go in the update thread. And everything stays fresh and thread sizes stay manageable because they're turned over every week.

It seems that now if one card is added by a guy he patches it into the entire module. Patches should be released separately and integrated by one person perhaps. That would eliminate conflicts where two guys are using the same addresses. I don't know who wants that responsibility, it would be quite a job.

[p0nk0]

Hi guys,

Well whichever way you guys add new patches, to a community that thought Microprose was a dead end to expand, the commnity will greatly thank you for it. I count myself in those lucky numbers that i could make level 0 and 1 cards thanks to the tutorial posted. To be able to play all those beautiful cards you guys coded for us. I know it's been said before many times by a lot of people, but again my hats off to ALL the people who have taken this project head on and greatly improved our playing enjoyment.

That said ( which was needed ) i think you guys should consider a couple of things.

1. Until now adding cards has been a want/need basis. While i admit i love most of the cards you guys have implemented, i think the adding of cards should be done sequentially. I would like to see for example someone tackle adding a whole set to the game. Since magic the gathering came out in blocks i would like to see a whole expansion for example urza's saga ( just the first i remembered not necesarily the one the first one being added. I know that for now some sets are unavailable like ice age because of the snow lands, but we might get there sometime.

2. A grace time between updates so we can post a bug for that paricular patch. Let's say again for the example urza's saga was added. A couple of days maybe even a couple of weeks should be given so that players can be the testers and help fix the bugs by playing the cards on their decks.

3. Do polls on which sets the community wants first to be done, although i agree since the programmers do all the work they have the final say on how it would be done.

4. Document the high levl cards and how they were succesfully implemented. Come next update we could recycle code to make cards thus enhancing and speeding the updating process.


In my opinion that would greatly benefit all of us, and i know someone out there likes thing in order and "neat".

Thanks again guys for everything, from one magic the gathering junkie to another

Cheers

[EviL_CLonE]

I would like to apologize with Orion. He was listed in the Wiki to make one of the next contributions, and even if he wasn't the immediate next one to release it; I wasn't even listed there. To be honest, I don't check the Wiki; just waited until someone released his update (Which was Lonefox) and started working... just that something that was supposed to take a couple of hours, demanded instead lot of time, due to my inexperience in this modding stuff. In fact, when I released my update, someone had already released another (I can't remember who was, it doesn't matter anyway) and I had to patch mine.

I don't think that there has to be "another" way to organize modding, since the only problem here was that I stepped over another modder's turn (Let's say that I Timewalked him ). The thing is that I should have to read the wiki and see who was next, and -if necessary- change opinion about the order of each one's turn.

Wiki is a good idea, and I think that it should be used to organize modding, as we were doing since it was created.

Sorry about the mess, i'll be more careful next time.

[Snacko]

If all of the new cards are moved to the new ASM / C dll then this speeds up the coding, doesn't clobber the magic.exe so much (only need to patch in the card information not the actual code). Also it could mean that the work is moved to a revision control system such as svn / mercurial / git which helps in organising the work as you know if someone has made a change and committed it. What more it helps to merge your changes, this doesn't work with binary only files that's why I recommend the move to the new dll.

[mathusalem]

Well, the present system is not too bad as long as everyone who wants to step in first takes the time to check throughly that he doesn't step on someone else's shoes.

Message to Evil_clone : no further update until Jatill's update !!!!! I won't trade exploration, pattern of rebirth and rancor for Zu-zu the singing bear,... I mean the punisher....

[EviL_CLonE]

@Math: Don't worry, I won't.

[HarryPitfall]

I want to add something. ManalinkEh.dll is for my codings using asm, I get forced to released the source here before i even finish shadow and horsemanship, but isn't a good thing to do.
So, after Jatill release, I'll take over again to fix bugs, and determine some things about how the development can continue:
ManalinkEx.dll -> is a blank space for direct coding, some people can do it by copy/paste and small fixes.
ManalinkEh.dll -> is a dll coding in yasm, I get forced to release, but I want to continue the good work on here, only me by now unless someone shows skills.
Anyone can build a good dll in pure C ? talk and he can add it do magic.exe!
Anyone want another public dll to code cards in yasm? He can add to magic.exe!
Do something for the community, and community can accept... don't force your way to change the things!
I hate to be the 'bad guy', but I need to be... some parts of development CAN'T BE NEVER open to public use, just 'cause be a programmer isn't something for everyone...
I'm tired to play cat and rat on this forum with other member, so now, I'll be the dog instead... ah, just to say, now I'm overreacting for the things... I didn't like the general idea to be kicked out of the project just 'cause someone don't like my code and ways!

[Bog Wraith]

Harry, I've got news for you...

Huggy & I are the dogs here!

If you can't coexist with everyone then I think you should reconsider your stance here.

We all want you to stay & work on the project. Nobody kicked you off the project, you quit! Your knowledge and skill is a huge asset and we all appreciate what you bring to all of us.

But know this, no one person is bigger then this project or will dictate to everyone else how things will run.

We're all a team. That means we all have to work together which means sometimes were going to piss each other off from time to time.

I repeat, nothing or no one is more important than anyone else or the project itself.

if you can't live with that, then that is your decision!

[0rion79]

I don't want to take a position in this matter, but I want you to meditate about what follows: we are a large group now, we have tools that allows everybody (including the less skilled coders as me) to add cards but there are unfinished problems that reduce the quality of the final product.
We are discovering that the AI can't use very well some cards if special instructions are not included with the card, that there are both and good ways to code new cards abilities (just working is not enough) and a lot of troubles. We are reaching a level were basic coding abilities are not enogh anymore for a high-quality final product.
Also, we are running, running and running without a true destination, leaving a lot of bugs unfixed and a lot of approximations that it would be possible to avoid if the work would be in the hands of very expert coders only, that can take their time in fixing bugs and improving the code.

In this case, I give more value to the persons that are most knowlegable about coding and reverse enginering. And there is no doubt that Harry, that did so much for us, is VERY skilled. Don't know if THE most one, but this is not so important.
Also, I can understand that he can feel frustrated if he thinks to be right because he knows how to do things in the optimal way, with benefits for all the others, but he also see people not listening to his advices and doing elsewere with an egocentric behavior, with the risk of wasting the game and all the progresses made until now.

Tell me one thing: if you feel sick and are very ill, shall you ask for an advice to your friends or to your doctor in medicine? I think the second one, and here it is esactly the same matter.
It is my very personal opinion, but I would like much more to have an expert project leader than going on as we are doing now in a way that, in my humble opinion, is very chaotic and may lead to unsecure results.

Of course, if the doctor is mean, and harsh, and angry all the time, then his adivces won't be followed even if he is the best one.
So please, there is space enough for all of us and all of us have the right to express opinions and give contribute, but we all should try to set aside personal rivalities with other members, to accept good ideas that come from OTHERS (and not only from ourselves) and to follow the advices from the ones that are more expert than us.

We don't add cards for personal glory, but because we share the same dream: expand the Microprose's Magic tG that we all love and make it ti shine again with a lot of new (and good) cards. This is all that we want, nothing more.

[gmzombie]

Here is my input for this whole situation being blown way out of proportion and take it for what its worth while im not any type of coder i like to try but i will probably never know the exciting feeling after creating a new card. I am excited to be apart of this project and will continue to do whatever i can to help it move along. With that said here is what i think.

1. i like the idea of the wiki and being able to know who is the active developer. it brings a sense of stability to the machine.

2. ponk0 had a good idea i think with how high level cards should be documented so if we need to refer back to em that would be great.

3. i would like to see a full set introduced but i understand that would be time consuming but i think that some of the older cards are being forgotten and they were a good part of I know at least me when i played the game what about you?

4. I like the idea of an regular release schedule that Huggy said although i see the need for seperate threads for updates and releases. my opinion though

I know everybody is a team in this project but we do need some team leaders IE programmers. I mean everybody has done a awesome job on this project to ressurect it from where Mok left it to where it is today. Great job but i really would like to see a little less squabbling on other items. I know how hard it is to change stuff...lol for 4 years ive been trying to get to work on time...just started this year heh..Anyways im not pointing fingers i would just like to see a little more relaxed situation with change. Anybody can do it some like myself for example just take a bit more time ya know. Thanks for everybodys continued support on this project and I hope this did not step on anybodies toes was not meant for that.

[Ghost]

hi, where can I read more about the history of this project? who is Mok, what he did, why he left?

thx,
Ghost.

[Yggdrasil]

Hi Ghost,
You should look at this thread.