Can we re-examine challenge mode?

[joemuz]

wow... just WOW. that's really all i can say.

[joemuz]

and there's a poll too! "SHOULD challenge mode be re-examined" really? seriously, how selfish can you be? do you have any idea how much time jatill has put into this by HIMSELF for FREE for YOUR AMUSEMENT. oh that's right, it doesn't amuse you. because you can't play with a FEW cards out of a THOUSAND that he's added. and oh yeah, you said "thank you" so you can demand whatever you want because his program isn't exactly the way YOU want it. he owes you right? how dare he takes HIS program, that HE made, that he GIVES TO YOU FOR FREE, and inconvenience you with this stupid challenge mode, right?

seriously, kid (i'm pretty sure you are) , grow the **** up.

[Tattooedoni]

@joemuz: I find it funny you assume I am a child and you are the one throwing a tantrum. Maybe if you could think it over you could explain what it would take to change challenge mode to optional and why that would be so costly. I am greatful to you and jatill for your work, but that doesn't mean you can't answer questions or listen to people who want to say something about your work.

The fact you give it to people either means you simply want recognition, or because you want us to enjoy it. If you want us to enjoy it how is it such a sin to point out what we don't like?

Re-examne means stop being stubbornly arogant and study what you have done. Then decide if you think it is worth changing. That's what I suggest. If your position is " I coded cards so I don't have to listen to critisism" then good luck in the real world. If that isn't your position then maybe you could explain it, which is actually better for improvment than insults.

[joemuz]

@joemuz: I find it funny you assume I am a child and you are the one throwing a tantrum. Maybe if you could think it over you could explain what it would take to change challenge mode to optional and why that would be so costly. I am greatful to you and jatill for your work, but that doesn't mean you can't answer questions or listen to people who want to say something about your work.

The fact you give it to people either means you simply want recognition, or because you want us to enjoy it. If you want us to enjoy it how is it such a sin to point out what we don't like?

Re-examne means stop being stubbornly arogant and study what you have done. Then decide if you think it is worth changing. That's what I suggest. If your position is " I coded cards so I don't have to listen to critisism" then good luck in the real world. If that isn't your position then maybe you could explain it, which is actually better for improvment than insults.

first of all, you don't have to thank me think i want recognition and think i'm arrogant. i've coded 2 cards, but that's it. i really haven't done anything more than you have. (except being an ingrate) really, all the credit should go to jatill. second of all, you need to just stop. you really are not worth my time to talk to. spew your garbage about how you want to "improve the program" and "democracy" and "re-examine this" elsewhere. please.. just stop. you know what this is about? YOU. it's all about YOU. wahhh I can't have all the cards and I want them NOW wahhhh!!!!

please, just stop.

[Tattooedoni]

@joemuz: You should try to read and comprehend before you hit reply. If your time is so precious don't waste it by respondng to things you don't read, you end up looking really foolish.

[Fracturedorb]

At this point I don't really care if challenege mode is in the game or not. It would just be nice when making a deck to know what cards I have unlocked and which ones I haven't while in the deck editor.

[monopoman]

The challenge modes are a bit daunting especially some of them but if Jatill wants to run it that way it is his interrogative.

I think most are not a huge fan of them but it has actually brought some challenge to the game since the AI is ridiculously stupid with any deck that requires more intelligence then swing in with guys.

The link that has been posted multiple times details how each challenge mode works and what can be used. It would be nice if that info was in the game but I am not sure if that is possible.

http://www.slightlymagic.net/wiki/Challenge_Mode

Also notice that Jatill does not put every new card under a challenge mode so I assume Jatill will still make cards in the future that are not locked.

[Tattooedoni]

Actually, now that I think about it, I regret the wording of my poll options. It should not say "not good enough". I can definitely see how that might come off as a statement of implied entitlement. It suggests that there is a good enough version possible, and that Jatill has failed to provide it. I don't mean that. It should say "Yes, challenge mode has issues I feel could be addressed to make the whole experience more enjoyable". That is probably a much better way to word it to match my intention.

I agree as the programer of free updates he provides to us that it is his (sorry if that is the wrong gender but I will continue using male until corrected) decision how he wants to create the updates and I appreciate he is hooking me and others up. I tried to ask questions to get comments from everyone about their feelings towards challenge mode. If whoever wants to read that feedback and make a change to how it is fine.

I think it is still our right to express how we feel about challenge mode no matter how much we paid or haven't to play it. In fact if there was ever to be requested donations or something like that I would be for it because I think the programers hooking us that should get paid at least a little something. That said I don't there is anything wrong with discussing how we all (including programers) feel about it. Enough people post questions, their confusion, their complaints etc. about it that I think examining it should be obvious. It is the only controversial part of this project, and I don't think it is anything that Jatill, Joemuz, or anyone should feel like they have to defend. I can respect someone who says "I love it, its fun" or "it gives me a lot of enjoyment because it makes it challenging to play against the AI" I still will want to ask "Do you think it could be better as optional?" I can respect the programers saying "I don't want to change the challenge mode because of ________". I might still ask them for more information and they can choose to answer or not. I will still honestly say what I think (no I am not just going to stop posting because someone says I should)about any of it.

[aww1979]

I don't really get what people have against challenge mode. Most of the challenges are quite fun, and the idea of unlocking additional cards is a good one. If you don't want to or cannot beat a challenge, you still haven't missed out on anything. For instance, I can't beat Land Ho!, so I have to simply suck it up that I can't use Gemstone Mine, and I'm too lazy to beat Gather No Moss for a wall I'll never use in constructed, so I can't play those two cards.

Plus, since other than Joemuz, nobody has contributed new cards in a very long time, I think it is only fair that the coder can decide if, when, and how he or she releases new cards.

If anything, I'd prefer that the best cards were the ones that required challenges to unlock, rather than things like Wall of Roots :p I mean, if something like Conqueror's Pledge or Sarkhan Vol had been the prize for Gather No Moss, I'd still be trying to unlock it. (though I realize for that set of challenges, the card is related to the challenge requirement, and that's about the only wall he released recently)

[McCrea]

I fully support developers decisions to do what they want.

Nonetheless, making parts of the game less accessible will not increase its popularity ( -- unless marketed as a prestige product). I'd wager restricting functionality will decrease popularity in this case.

Consider that first phrase carefully. I doubt you will attract a single additional user based on the claim "With the new challenge mode you can complete challenges to unlock cards!"

Don't your current new users seem to have enough problems? Do you really want more "why can't I find this card" or "what's this challenge thing in the middle of my duel" or "how do I complete or disable this challenge" or version-confusion issues.

Of course, it is the developers perogative. But I've always been an "option" fiend.

[Tattooedoni]

I don't really get what people have against challenge mode. Most of the challenges are quite fun, and the idea of unlocking additional cards is a good one. If you don't want to or cannot beat a challenge, you still haven't missed out on anything. For instance, I can't beat Land Ho!, so I have to simply suck it up that I can't use Gemstone Mine, and I'm too lazy to beat Gather No Moss for a wall I'll never use in constructed, so I can't play those two cards.

Plus, since other than Joemuz, nobody has contributed new cards in a very long time, I think it is only fair that the coder can decide if, when, and how he or she releases new cards.

If anything, I'd prefer that the best cards were the ones that required challenges to unlock, rather than things like Wall of Roots :p I mean, if something like Conqueror's Pledge or Sarkhan Vol had been the prize for Gather No Moss, I'd still be trying to unlock it. (though I realize for that set of challenges, the card is related to the challenge requirement, and that's about the only wall he released recently)

That makes sense. You obviously enjoy the process of the challenge mode, and I continue to agree it is Jatill's prerogative to release whatever he wants.

Do you think it could be BETTER (not a direct statement that this way is bad) if it was an option instead of a requirement? That way all the player types could have an experience that suits them? Do you need to have the card locked to enjoy challenge mode or do you like the situations themselves separately? I am not implying it is wrong to like it that way or anything by asking, just wondering what YOUR experience is. I think stuff like that is interesting.

[scherbchen]

honestly, I found the challenges to be a ton of fun after being a bit squeamish about them myself at first. I really only got back into them beckause I wanted Umezawa's Jitte (first I got into it after I drafted a pretty sick Goblin Welder / Sundering Titan deck and could not use the Welders), I needed about 4-5 cards for the deck I had envisioned so I went and unlocked them. lots of time invested, lots of hairpulling but also lots of fun once I had gotten it done.

I especially liked the challenge set 3 because so little information was available for it at first and I got to try out a few things without having spoilers from the get-go and now I am really looking forward for new challenges

If you need info on what is locked or what is allowed, sorry, but I have not even used the wiki, I tried google (a commonly used search engine) and found this little gem which actually is in the wiki http://www.slightlymagic.net/wiki/Chall ... t_unlocked

all the info on what cards are locked and most of the info on what is allowed in each challenge.

if you need help on decks just visit this site's deck and strategy section. many decklists are provided by people who have completed a particular step. me, I take them as ideas and modify them according to my liking and try to jam in cards I really like (most notably Isochrone Scepter, Tooth and Nail, Sower of Temptation, Ranger of Eos, Ajani Goldmane, Reveillark and Vedalken Shackles) and drop cards, mechanics and combos I find tedious at best like dredge or storm whenever it is possible. sometimes the restrictions for a particular challenge do not allow that and I have to get creative in other ways...

as far as making challenge mode optional... that, to me, hardly makes any sense. most everybody will take the easy route and then it would have been a waste to implement it in the first place. here is my challenge: you may not use lands in any of your games (other than Shandalar) unless you hav beaten Shandalar with a deck made only of Llanowar Elves and Forests. not that I liken the challenges jatill made up to this ridiculous idea but we now have an optional challenge. anybody complete it please get back to me.

as far as new users go, nobody here is selling the product. if the programmers can get the online play to work properly then, yes, that might be a valid point. I'd also chuckle if they have to unlock their Cursed Scroll first in offline mode before being able to use them online but then again I am a mean, petty person.

now, if ever I find the time I need to get me that Serum Powder and that Quirion Dryad... damn you, Warhammer! curse you, Blood Bowl!

[McCrea]

Scherbechen, I decided to respond to a couple weak points.

#1

as far as new users go, nobody here is selling the product.

I must agree. Buyers buy, and users use. I didn't mention buyers.

It does seem that your comment indicates disregard for new users. I'm a bit surprised.

I assume users are desireable, partially because that's where new developers come from. But of course, reflecting my personal assumption upon others would be presumptous.

#2
I'm having trouble not sarcastically addressing "options are a waste of development." Yep, Microsoft put in an option in Internet Explorer for setting the home page. What a waste, I have so much "fun" at msn.com I'm sure it's good enough for everybody. Or maybe that's because of all those "paying" users of IE.

-- edited to enumerate topics. --

[scherbchen]

well, I did expand upon the new users point, mind you, yet you did only adress a snippet. I guess the other point was "weak" as well since you only adressed one of the "couple" .

anyhoo... if there is any disregard I am harbouring it is only to those that take the work a few people have put into this relic of a product and who, in their first post to these boards, demand a change (or rather question a small part of the vastly expanded product available to them for free due to a few "problems" that could have easily been remedied by browsing for a couple of minutes), however politely they did so. in my book that is akin to dropping into a friend's place for dinner unannounced and ask them to serve steak instead of the fish they prepared. hmm, analogies have never been my forte, that one was weak as well, appologies.

I honestly don't get the microsoft one of yours, either, so I am not going to speculate

[aww1979]

That makes sense. You obviously enjoy the process of the challenge mode, and I continue to agree it is Jatill's prerogative to release whatever he wants.
...
just wondering what YOUR experience is. I think stuff like that is interesting.

Well, if the challenge modes didn't have cards to unlock, I know some of them I'd still play, while others that I didn't care for I wouldn't play at all. Most of them I found enjoyable, there's just two or three that really got on my nerves :p

Also, there is the huge satisfaction when you beat a challenge mode, especially a hard one and/or one that unlocks a card you *really* want. Sure, there's a good feeling when a new card is coded for free, but there's an even better feeling when you own a challenge and unlock it.

One issue I've seen a few people bring up is sealed deck and draft. Now, I almost never play these, so I haven't had the problem, but I guess if you get a locked card in there, it still doesn't work, and that would be rather annoying. If it is easy to do, maybe those could be coded to not give you locked cards. It probably isn't worth investing a lot of time in, but if adding a simple test like if(unlock=FALSE) then(dontdraftthiscard) could be done, it would help a little.