Creatures in current environment

[0rion79]

Dear e-friends,

today is a bad day for me 'cos I'm at home aflued so I get the chance to share a thought with you all.
It is a while that I'm playing with Jatill's latest releases and he has been great in coding only cool cards (except for the miss of thrulls LOL! ) but *maybe* there is a backdraw in this too. The point is that some cards, imho, may really have devasting effects on the filed. It is not Jatill's fault: it is just Wizards of the Coasts that, imho, has exagerated during years.

First of all, buyback spells as Allay or Shattering Pulse imho are really strong: without counterspells, once that a player has enough mana, he can virtually destroy any artifact and/or enchantment that the opponent may play before that he can take advantage of it and this somehow enhances the use of counterspells. I just feel lucky when AI plays the without the buyback cost but I can see the effects when I do!
Also, planeswalkers are damn powerful too and force a different game approach, so different that I usually keep decks with and without planeswalkers into separated directories.

Second, creatures. I've been amazed by the power of some new ones, that simply makes even Juzam Djinn and Ehrnam Djinn as obsolete. I mean, they are sill so good but Baneslayer Angel is almost universally better than Serra Angel, Malakir Bloodwitch is just better than Sengir Vampire; Sphinx of Jwar Isle is just better than Mahamoti Djinn and Force of Nature is useless when you can play Silvos, Rogue Elemental or Terra Stomper that has no penalties and just bonuses. Especially this card is out of any logic, since it has a power/toughness ratio that is much lower than its casting cost but has no penalty as well. Yes, some of the obsolete cards still find some application in a very limited environment (eg. Force of Nature still fits great into an elemental deck or is deadly against blue that uses Controll Magic) but, usually, the new cards are a "must-use" and will amlost certianly replace the old ones.
Not to talk about big creatures with several "protection from". Akroma, Angel of Wrath, Oversoul of Dusk, Sabertooth Nishoba or the same Iridiscent Angel... when they enter the battlefield, they are strong! And may close the game in few rounds if they match opponent's colors. Also the fact that the game is missing a sideboard (originally designed for the expansion set after Duels of Planeswalkers, that never came) makes even more difficult to deal with such cards.

Also, Jatill has coded some cards that I learned to hate during official tournments: Diabolic Edict and Fireblast. The first one allowed the killing of creatures with Protection from Black or Shroud, where its only weakness is that it cannot directly target the wanted target, while the second may cause a virtual opponent's death at 6th turn, if supported by other damage sources.

Now, don't misunderstand me: I'm really happy about the cards but, from the other hand, I'm also worried about the balance in the game. Now I don't remember if Trample ability on this game has been updated to latest rules (if Force of Nature deals damage to a Cerulean Wyvern, the Wyvern absorbs 3 damages and the other 5 go to the opponent), but I'm surprised that White color has nothing similar to Ghostfire or Diabolic edict. Moonglove Extract is a very nice card, but only to kill knights and similar creatures but against big, warded creatures it is not enough.

Maybe it is just me who's out of the game from so many years that I'm no longer able to think in a way that may counter these spells, but I have also learned of not getting too exalted for new, powerful cards since I also have to consider that the opponent may play them against me, too.

Thanks for reading.

[monopoman]

If you prefer playing with just old cards load up the game sans any patches whatsoever and wah lah problem solved.

Jatill will continue to add the most powerful cards to the game because that is what most of us want.

In competitive magic these are what people play they play stuff like Fireblast and Diabloic Edict and other cards because they are the best. Those cards really aren't that unfair they are good but hardly "unfair".

I put the question to you why does Terra Stomper have to be as weak as Force of Nature? This is a serious question you deem it overpowered because its better but who cares really. The current power level of a magic card is much more then it was in the past except we don't get stupid crap like Black Lotus.

This is a good thing back in the "good old days" we had insane cards like ancestral recall and cards that sucked ass in comparison like Force of Nature now things are FARRRR More balanced on the card power level front.

[0rion79]

If you prefer playing with just old cards load up the game sans any patches whatsoever and wah lah problem solved.

No, no: I like the game much more as it is now. I was not complaining at all about what has been done until now, I was just sharing some thoughts. Also, consider that I did quit Magic as consequence of the big rules change, when Interrupts have been removed, so I really know few about what has been done until now, except some few, single card.

Jatill will continue to add the most powerful cards to the game because that is what most of us want.

Have I ever writen that he should do otherwise? No! And in fact, I'm happy too.

In competitive magic these are what people play they play stuff like Fireblast and Diabloic Edict and other cards because they are the best. Those cards really aren't that unfair they are good but hardly "unfair".

It depends from the point of view: I have never been that fond of staple cards, that are so good that you can't do otherwise than to use them. Imho, the environment is broken when you are worried about how to face single, specific cards.

I put the question to you why does Terra Stomper have to be as weak as Force of Nature? This is a serious question you deem it overpowered because its better but who cares really. The current power level of a magic card is much more then it was in the past except we don't get stupid crap like Black Lotus.

Force of Nature isn't weak: it is still a good card, just obsolete. Now it is no longer competitive, but in type 1.5 it has had its time of glory. I agree with you about the rest, however. The general cards level has increased and I think that WotC did the right thing, somehow. I remember how terrible was when there were huge expansion sets every 3 months, full of lame fillers as Raging Bull or The Lurker. A waste of moneys and the impossibility of following the game if you were not rich. But now, it is just imho (in my humble opinion) that they also wished to actract new players introducing extremely powerful creatures.

This is a good thing back in the "good old days" we had insane cards like ancestral recall and cards that sucked ass in comparison like Force of Nature now things are FARRRR More balanced on the card power level front.

I trust you but I still have the feeling that something is missing on our PC game. Maybe it is just me who's used to think in a too rigid, old way, or maybe it is because non-creature spells are the most difficult cards to reproduce even if they are essential to balance the environment, or maybe because it is just missing a sideboard, I don't know. I just wished to share my thought and match my ideas with yours, not to criticize what has been done until now.

[Professor]

Just two cents worth but:

No matter how many cards are removed or banned or not created in the first place, every environment will still have its best cards. If there were only 100 cards in the game, you'd still have to be able to deal with the best of those 100.

WOTC has made a point of making sure the best of the best can still be dealt with in some way, available in the same sets.

I'm having a great time rediscovering this game with the new cards. It's been years since I went to sleep creating decklists in my head!

[0rion79]

WOTC has made a point of making sure the best of the best can still be dealt with in some way, available in the same sets.

As I've written, I admit that - being out from the game for a very long time - I've never seen most of the new cards so I don't know what spells can be used to deal, for example, with the multi-warded creatures. Can you make some expample, please?
Maybe I'm so easily impressed by current creatures just because I'm not aware of local environment.

I'm having a great time rediscovering this game with the new cards. It's been years since I went to sleep creating decklists in my head!

Absolutely true! Remember: I'm very happy too and not complaining, I've just opened this argument for the pleasure of discussion.

[MalkolmX]

Over the past few years WOTC has made an effort to make creatures better, simply because they weren't good enough in the first place.
In magic's start the curve was something like 1cc=1/1, 2cc=1/1, 3cc=2/2, 4cc=3/3, 5cc=4/4, etc... But today many creatures are above the curve, for example Putrid Leech is a 4/4 for 2cc, Tombstalker is (most of the times) a 5/5 flying for 2cc.
Generally Spells>Creatures because there are more ways your opponents can interact with creatures (other creatures, removal, burn, counters) while spells can usually only be answered by counters.
Players were aware of that fact and they played few(sometimes none) creatures, simply because spells were better. So WOTC ended up being forced to update creatures, some years ago a 5/5 for 4CC was amazing, in nowadays is junk, you can easily have a Tarmogoyf as a 4/5 (or even more) for 2CC, and that's fine by me, creatures deserve some love too, and in the past they were just bad, today they are quite respectfull.
That change had a huge impact in the game, making it more aggro friendly, but still creatures have a long way to walk in order to be significant in older formats. In Vintage/Legacy, creatures are still a second choice (with some exceptions, Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker).

[Systral]

If you have problems getting beat by huge unstoppable creatures there are many ways to work around them. For example:

1) Counterspells. Most counters are cheaper than big monsters, combined with some card drawing to refill your hand you can make sure that his heavy hitters never come into play.

2) Discard. Another way to stop them from ever hitting the board is to make your opponent discard them from his hand before he can play them. Hypnotic Specter, Hymn to Tourach, Thoughtsieze etc work wonders.

3) Mana denial. Even though the casting cost to power ratio has gone down since the early days your opponent is still going to need mana to cast his creatures. Mana denial can be done through land destruction, stasis/winter orb/tangle wire effects or cost increasers (sphere of resistance, trinisphere etc).

4) Tempo. Decks that kill with big beaters are usually pretty slow, exploit this by getting so far ahead in the early game that your opponent can't turn the game around when his deck starts rolling. Either make a combo deck that can win in the first couple of turns (e.g. Storm) or go the wheenie route (elves, goblins, etc).

5) Make your opponents fatties work against him by stealing them, animating them or enabling your strategy (e.g. Oath of Druids).

Hope this gave you some deck building ideas

[aww1979]

While I am in the same situation as Orion (haven't bought a paper card in ten years) I don't see most of those creatures in his list as overpowered. Baneslayer Angel is an unholy terror (or holy terror?) but the rest of those I could easily deal with using ten year old average decks. (average for their time) Baneslayer is tougher due to costing 'only' 3WW and being more powerful than almost any other creature at that level. It's the only one of those mentioned above I don't think I could handle 99% of the time, more like 50%. I mean, really, how often do you get to hardcast Akroma, even against the retarded AI? Usually the game is over before then.

Cards like Swords to Plowshares, Balance, and Wrath of God in white, Diabolic Edict, Terror, Thoughtseize in black, Mana Drain, Control Magic in blue, Fireblast in Red will remove the vast majority of threats, though Wrath and Control Magic have high casting costs. That's just cards available to us in manalink. If you use monogreen, you might be out of luck, but green has probably always been the weakest colour.

Planeswalkers are a little trickier; I'm still not quite used to these :p Still, you can just attack the darned things to get rid of them, and there are still cards to destroy them outright, like Vindicate. Also, while most of the planeswalkers are pretty good, they all take at least two turns or more to build up to their most devastating ability, and some of them have high casting costs, like Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker. There are still answers to planeswalkers, even in manalink, though; Vindicate, Vampire Hexmage, or basically any creature deck. More mana-expensive solutions include Desert Twister, World Queller, Time Elemental.

Actually, I've felt for a long time (not as much recently) that creatures are underpowered, when faced with the kind of removal or other solutions that exist for them. However, I also feel that creatures are far more fun to play (especially on manalink) than Keeper-style decks. I really hate having to mouseclick half a dozen times just to cast a single spell in Keeper :p The increasing power of creatures, I think, is an attempt to counter that trend. Looking at type 1 decks today, I can see a *LOT* more creatures than there used to be ten years ago, because they are making better ones.

Finally, there is also the simple choice not to use in your decks any card you don't like, for any reason. For example, I think Masticore is one of the most overrated cards ever printed; hence, I never use it, since I think it sucks. Many will disagree with that, but I just stuff my fingers in my ears and use other cards instead :p Conversely, I think Isochron Scepter is absolutely broken, though it seldom sees play outside Abeyance/Orim's Chant in real life. I use Isochron Scepter whenever I can get away with it, and often only as a one-of, because it 'feels' like a restricted card to me; I feel dirty with 4 :p

Interestingly, if I were to put out a list of overpowered creatures, the only one I'd share with Orion is Baneslayer Angel. I'd put creatures like Ashenmoor Gouger, Bloodbraid Elf, Dark Confidant, Goblin Lackey, Kiki-Jiki, Meddling Mage, Master of Etherium, Nyxathid, Ob Nixilis, Psychatog, Putrid Leech, Qasali Pridemage, Tarmogoyf, Watchwolf, Wild Nacatl, Wilt-Leaf Liege, Woolly Thoctar, and Wren's-Run Vanquisher as some of the ones I think are most overpowered, at least based on how often I use them and how well they do. (note, my list is based on post-DotP cards in manalink)

(ok just as one more note, as I went to post, the last two posts made above mine I didn't read until after writing all this)

[0rion79]

While I am in the same situation as Orion (haven't bought a paper card in ten years) I don't see most of those creatures in his list as overpowered. Baneslayer Angel is an unholy terror (or holy terror?) but the rest of those I could easily deal with using ten year old average decks. (average for their time) Baneslayer is tougher due to costing 'only' 3WW and being more powerful than almost any other creature at that level. It's the only one of those mentioned above I don't think I could handle 99% of the time, more like 50%. I mean, really, how often do you get to hardcast Akroma, even against the retarded AI? Usually the game is over before then.

Thanks everybody for sharing your thoughts: I've relaly appreciated them.
I would just like to point out one matter, though. Baneslayer Angel is really an amazing card and, even it is very "out" of common White schemes (since it has always had big & powerful but expensive creatures), I agree that it still can be killed almost easily as a Serra Angel. Well, maybe it is just a bit more resistant to Red since nor a Fireblast nor a Psyonic Blast (blue) can kill it alone. And, as well, I don't have any trouble with Spiritmonger or almost any other new & powerful creature because of the same reason: they are cool, I've been surprised by the increasing of power among creatures but I still think that they are "fair" because they alone don't grant victory.

My only concern is represented by big creatures with several "protection from *color*". Even the ones with "shroud", at least, can be countered using other creatures and are no concern for me. With the exception of Progenitus, that is funny but nearly impossible to play, I've experimented the power of creatures like Iridiscent Angel, Saberthooth Nishoba and Oversoul of Dusk when the AI has played them against me and they matched the colors that I were using, and sometimes it has happened very often at the beginning of the game thanks to the several fast-mana sources available now. When they enter the field, usually it is just a matter of time before that the opponent dies: if he hasn't gathered such a huge advantage in the early stages of the game or hasn't some specific card to deal with them, then those big creatures can quickly cause a turnover of the game direction (who was winning, now is loosing) because they are nearly impossible to kill and to block. Only Black and Red have some chances of directly dealing with them, thanks to Ghostfire and Diabolic Edict assuming that the player has saved enough of them in hand for mid-game. Instead, blue *MUST* use counterspells while their use should be only an option as many others and not a "must use"; Green just has no defense (also because, among the many green creatures with "protection from...", Only Whirling Dervish is in this game) and, thus, must go on offensive game; and White must absolutely use reset buttons as Wrath of God, that still is more a sideboard card when used in decks with many creatures. (I've always hoped that Jatill would have coded Alabaster Dragon and Avenging Angel, that would fit very well with Serra Avatar, for obvious reasons, in an aggressive deck with Wrath of God as main reset button, but he never did )
Imho, also Malakir Bloodwitch is too powerful but only because I've not found a white mirror card that does the same thing for White, more or less. You know, it is part of the tradition that, if black has the Black Knight, white has the White Knight and so on. Against other colors, I know that it is just a card that is just better than Sengir Vampire
So, at the end what is the solution for White, Blue and Green? To use non-definitive anti-creature sources as Maze of Ith, Icy Manipulator (which has lost a lot of power after the main rules change, since tapped creatures still deal damage and tapped artifacts usually keep working), Tawnos's Coffin or the small Moonglove Extract, truly useful only against knights? Or to use mass reset buttons as Nevinyrral's Disk?

You told me that striking opponent's hand or mana sources can be valid strategies and that's true but, at the end, it is a matter of playing faster than the opponent or slowing down the opponent before that he can play those cards, if he has some. And so, what? As a provocation, I ask: are we reducing Magic as a game where speed is the only relevant factor? Or should everybody use Disrupting Scepter and Wasteland as a new staple cards? It sounds like a huge constriction to me also because Jatill did so much to offer us such a wide variety of cards and I want to enjoy all of them.

To tell the truth, if multi-warded creatures have to exist, I would feel the need of stronger COLORLESS and less spell-vulnerable artifact creatures that can compete with those multi-warded creatures and/or more colorless anti-creature spells. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm not... What do you think about?

[Systral]

Without getting to deep into the wonders of magic theory, you need to think about what your gameplan is and what your opponents gameplan is. With this in mind you then need to look at the cards in your deck and see which cards are there to enable your strategy and which are there to prevent your opponent from enabling his. For example, take the classic white wheenie deck. Your gameplan here is to play fast efficent creatures that swarm the opponent and kill him. You are gunning for the early game so pretty much all of your creatures should cost 1 or 2 mana to summon. Savannah Lions, Knight of Meadowgrain, Shadow Knights, that flying dude from mirrodin that I can't remember the name of...you know the drill. But you need more than this, in order for your guys to get there you have to simultaneously disrupt your opponent. White creatures usually have good combat abilities (first strike, protection, etc.) so against a deck that also relies on small dudes you should have the upper hand. What you are afraid of is decks that play more costly and splashy cards that just sit there and take a beating for a couple of turns and then turn the game around. How do you prevent that?

Enter mana denial! Strip Mine and Wastelands are virtual Time Walks against someone who is playing land-go. Armageddon resets everyone's mana, but your guys give you a superior board position. Land Tax makes sure don't miss land drops and draw more threats, and should he be able to summon a threat you just remove it with Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile/Disenchant and keep attacking. His hand may be full of overpowered fatties, but since you were able to gain the early advantage and keep it there you win. There's no need for stuff like Wrath of God or big creatures of your own since you win before they would become relevant. What I'm getting at is that unless you are playing a brutally fast combo deck you always have to take your opponent into the equation and see what kind of disruption is most efficent for your deck in order to stop him. For blue it's usually counterspells, for black it's discard and so on, and with duals and fetch lands there' usually no reason not to splash one or two extra colors so you can cherry pick the best threats and disruption.

It has been said that magic is like Rock-Paper-Scissors but with Aggro -> Control -> Combo instead. Some deck types have a strategic advantage against others but with good metagaming, solid deck building and proper sideboarding (not a factor in Manalink though) you can shore up your weaknesses and reinforce your strengths. For an example of colorless cards that can stop big warded creatures, give this deck a whirl against what's giving you headaches and I promise you will win 10 games out of 10

5c Stax
.10 1 Balance
.1 1 Ancestral Recall
.249 1 Time Walk
.1351 1 Tinker
.62 1 Demonic Tutor
.331 1 Imperial Seal
.333 1 Vampiric Tutor
.282 1 Wheel of Fortune
.1895 4 Goblin Welder
.390 1 Crop Rotation
.1900 1 Memory Jar
.1573 4 Smokestack
.230 1 Sol Ring
.724 4 Tangle Wire
.1912 4 Crucible of Worlds
.1702 4 Sphere of Resistance
.1906 1 Sundering Titan
.538 1 Triskelion
.17 1 Black Lotus
.894 1 Mana Crypt
.157 1 Mana Vault
.165 1 Mox Emerald
.166 1 Mox Jet
.167 1 Mox Pearl
.168 1 Mox Ruby
.169 1 Mox Sapphire
.317 1 Tolarian Academy
.403 4 City of Brass
.510 4 Mishra's Workshop
.528 1 Strip Mine
.1728 4 Wasteland
.202 1 Regrowth
.806 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
.722 2 Gemstone Mine
.1909 1 Trinisphere*

[aww1979]

If you want a low-tech solution, consider using artifact creatures, along with whatever other creatures you're using. I've seen (older) T2 decks using things like Yotian Soldier in monowhite or monoblack to block opponent's pumpknights :p Things like Tetravus or Platinum Angel can stop that Iridescent Angel. On the ground, I like Clockwork Beast, Su-Chi, and Juggernaut, though Jugg is not much good for blocking. (though the turn it comes into play, the AI won't see it as a potential blocker and attack into it! ) Masticore is also a favourite by many, but I've already said I don't like him personally.

[0rion79]

Yes, I understand and apply the logic behind the Rock-Paper-Scissors matter. It is just that those strategies imho are undirect ones to deal with decks based on big, stompy creatures: there is almost too much "science" behind those game style, while I'm looking for more effective cards that may be more effective against warded creatures.
Maybe it is just me that would like to revive the joy of playing an easy game as it was at the beginning. Even if I was member of the Silver Door association, where it was filled with many Magic the Gathering players from my city, many of them agreed that Magic was somehow, in a weird way, more funny when we used 80 cards decks filled with Unholy Strength, Giant Spider or Benalish Hero, all cards that now sucks. Usually, modern cards are much more complicated than the older ones and also it is almost impossible to find vanilla creatures, with no abilities as a Craw Wurm, lol! Time are changed and I understand that new players are used to think in a more competitive way, due to the presence of more powerful cards.
But, after all, I will consider Magic forever just as a game and never as a "field of knowledge" in life. It is a nice stimulus for mind during youth but reaching professional levels is not my aim.
This won't mean that I don't give my best during my deck building phase or that I don't love to build my land-breaker decks or my weenies with Armageddon or discarding-decks with Hymn to Tourach and spectres: they are all great options but, rather than feeling constricted in using those cards as prevention for those kind of creatures, I prefer not to use the multi-warded ones except if they are really damn slow, with a casting cost of 7 or greater, or in tribe decks. Akroma, for example, is fine for me because it is a legend, there is usually one per deck and can't be played too fast.
Also, I prefer to have a greater number of random decks (some of which are really lame, with few chances of victory, as it happens with some tribe decks) but I feel it more funny and, as long as there will be few hopes to play on-line, I prefer to go on this way. Maybe if there will ever be a white, blue and/or green spells that are equivalent to Diabolic Edict or Ghostfire to counter multi-warded creatures, I will use those creatures too. Untill then, I won't Also because the on-line experience is extremely limited by actual software and so there is no direct matching against other serious players. Have a nice time!

If you want a low-tech solution, consider using artifact creatures, along with whatever other creatures you're using. I've seen (older) T2 decks using things like Yotian Soldier in monowhite or monoblack to block opponent's pumpknights :p Things like Tetravus or Platinum Angel can stop that Iridescent Angel. On the ground, I like Clockwork Beast, Su-Chi, and Juggernaut, though Jugg is not much good for blocking. (though the turn it comes into play, the AI won't see it as a potential blocker and attack into it! ) Masticore is also a favourite by many, but I've already said I don't like him personally.

Yes, I absolutely agree: Su-Chi now is even stronger because there is no more mana burn and so it is just a 4/4 for 4 manas that fits in every deck. The problem is that artifact creatures are extremely vulerable to spells much more than non-artifact creatures (that's why I don't use Tower Gargoyle, that is also colored and thus less valuable) and, with Shattering Pulse around it is very hard that they can do their job for enough time.

[aww1979]

Well, green's got nothing, but maybe we can talk Jatill into coding the preacher from The Dark, since it is a nontargeted effect, as long as you take care of everything BUT the iridescent angel or whatever, you can steal it, which is, of course, even better than killing it! I think blue probably has a few tricks like that, too, though none come to mind right away; plus, by the time AI can manage to hardcast some of those big guys, you've probably got at least UU to counter it :p

edit: oops, seems current rulings have Preacher as a targeted effect now (Gain control of target creature of an opponent's choice that he or she controls) instead of (Gain control of one of opponent's creatures).