Can we re-examine challenge mode?
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Can we re-examine challenge mode?
by Tattooedoni » 23 Nov 2009, 03:46
Hello everyone, this is my first post on these boards. I want to preface this post by saying that I really enjoy playing the client, and I appreciate all of the hard work that goes into it. I have had many hours of enjoyment since I discovered it. The other hand of course is that I have also had hours of frustration and they have all come from one aspect. Challenge mode. I think that if you are doing all this hard work for yourself, and then letting anyone else who wants to play it play it then by all means leave it. If you want people to play the client and enjoy your hard work you should probably re-examine it.
The first hurdle it puts in the way of fun is the fact that its existence is not clear. I ,like most people obviously, didn't actually research what it is and does until I went to cast Bloodbraid Elf. Then it still didn't make any sense because I did not know anything about challenge mode. I couldn't even cast Tezzeret, but had no idea why because it did not even have the pop-up letting me know it was locked.
Once I started researching for a while I learned that there is a list of cards that are in the game and in the deckbuilder, but do not work in the game until they are unlocked. That gave me the idea to try to start unlocking. I have now done a ton of research and I still don't actually know how challenge mode works. I know how to start it, but there is a lot I do not understand. Can you unlock out of order? It doesn't look like it, but I can not tell. So I started at the beginning, after hours of frustrating game play, and deck building, I finally finished the first gauntlet. After beating the slivers nothing happened. It just went back to the gauntlet start screen. Okay, so I went and played a deck that had mystic enforcer, and when I played it I found out that it was NOT unlocked.
I stopped playing then and haven't gone back to the game once since then. What is the point? I jumped through all the hoops and I still can not play with the first in a long line of cards I have to unlock before I can get to the cards I want to play with.
Why is Challenge mode not optional? Why can you not choose to try challenge mode if you want the extra challenge, but skip it if that is not something you want to deal with? Why can't the switcher let you choose the challenge mode where it locks the challenge prizes and gives you the mode option? If you just want to be able to play a few quick games in your personal gauntlet then you can load normal mode and have your own fun. That way each type of player can be happy instead of just the code-creator and the players who like that type of experience.
So let's say that you don't want to/ can't program that. Why not just make it normal, with challenge mode a set of challenges you can play if you like that kind of thing (where just winning would be its own reward)? That way people could still talk strategy and brag about beating certain challenges without frustrating people who don't have fun playing that type of game.
Quick note for reference: Jatill, who for all I have seen is the front programer for challenge mode if not everything, is recently on record saying this
"Re: Challenge Mode
All the details about the rules and unlock cards are on the wiki.
I am never going to unlock the 1 card per challenge. If you don't want to play the challenges, just pretend those cards were never coded."
Lets say that you just don't feel like making the change, for time reasons, or just you think it makes it better to stop your players from having fun unless it is on your terms. In that case why not change which cards are locked from being tournament staples to being cards that are more fun/casual? Things like Gauntlet of Might, Opposition, Coat of Arms, and that sort of thing. This way you aren't forcing people who want to play Tezzeret to spend hours and hours losing to the gauntlet to finally get far enough to unlock it. Those type of cards make sense to lock for a causal fun mode, not tournament staples. Even simply reordering the challenges to make more popular cards unlock earlier. Also it would help if Challenge Mode actually work.
Besides, you cant just say "if you don't want to play the challenges pretend those cards were never coded." We would all be aware because people who have unlocked them would talk about them and that would be confusing to people who haven't unlocked, or don't know about them.
You can't pretend they were never coded; the cards show up right in deck builder. New players of the game like me figure out how to download, update, and play the game. Then we go to make a standard deck and can't use BLOODBRAID ELF! You go to make a vintage deck, and can't use TEZZERET. That is just laughable. You can see it, you can put it in your deck, and you can lose when it does nothing.
I am interested to learn more about what other players think about the current state of challenge mode. I also am interested to learn if Jatill or other programers really wont just evaluate Challenge Mode to see if it could be made better. That would make all of their hours of hard work go into an end result people love instead of one they give up on because it is just too much work to get a good experience.
Although I want comments I went ahead and added a poll for people who like that option. I went did not put my personal inflection on the text. We can get into what you would like to see happen if you think its not good enough in your reply, but I wanted to show the community some hard data democracy style.
Thanks for reading all that....
Tattooed Oni
The first hurdle it puts in the way of fun is the fact that its existence is not clear. I ,like most people obviously, didn't actually research what it is and does until I went to cast Bloodbraid Elf. Then it still didn't make any sense because I did not know anything about challenge mode. I couldn't even cast Tezzeret, but had no idea why because it did not even have the pop-up letting me know it was locked.
Once I started researching for a while I learned that there is a list of cards that are in the game and in the deckbuilder, but do not work in the game until they are unlocked. That gave me the idea to try to start unlocking. I have now done a ton of research and I still don't actually know how challenge mode works. I know how to start it, but there is a lot I do not understand. Can you unlock out of order? It doesn't look like it, but I can not tell. So I started at the beginning, after hours of frustrating game play, and deck building, I finally finished the first gauntlet. After beating the slivers nothing happened. It just went back to the gauntlet start screen. Okay, so I went and played a deck that had mystic enforcer, and when I played it I found out that it was NOT unlocked.
I stopped playing then and haven't gone back to the game once since then. What is the point? I jumped through all the hoops and I still can not play with the first in a long line of cards I have to unlock before I can get to the cards I want to play with.
Why is Challenge mode not optional? Why can you not choose to try challenge mode if you want the extra challenge, but skip it if that is not something you want to deal with? Why can't the switcher let you choose the challenge mode where it locks the challenge prizes and gives you the mode option? If you just want to be able to play a few quick games in your personal gauntlet then you can load normal mode and have your own fun. That way each type of player can be happy instead of just the code-creator and the players who like that type of experience.
So let's say that you don't want to/ can't program that. Why not just make it normal, with challenge mode a set of challenges you can play if you like that kind of thing (where just winning would be its own reward)? That way people could still talk strategy and brag about beating certain challenges without frustrating people who don't have fun playing that type of game.
Quick note for reference: Jatill, who for all I have seen is the front programer for challenge mode if not everything, is recently on record saying this
"Re: Challenge Mode
All the details about the rules and unlock cards are on the wiki.
I am never going to unlock the 1 card per challenge. If you don't want to play the challenges, just pretend those cards were never coded."
Lets say that you just don't feel like making the change, for time reasons, or just you think it makes it better to stop your players from having fun unless it is on your terms. In that case why not change which cards are locked from being tournament staples to being cards that are more fun/casual? Things like Gauntlet of Might, Opposition, Coat of Arms, and that sort of thing. This way you aren't forcing people who want to play Tezzeret to spend hours and hours losing to the gauntlet to finally get far enough to unlock it. Those type of cards make sense to lock for a causal fun mode, not tournament staples. Even simply reordering the challenges to make more popular cards unlock earlier. Also it would help if Challenge Mode actually work.
Besides, you cant just say "if you don't want to play the challenges pretend those cards were never coded." We would all be aware because people who have unlocked them would talk about them and that would be confusing to people who haven't unlocked, or don't know about them.
You can't pretend they were never coded; the cards show up right in deck builder. New players of the game like me figure out how to download, update, and play the game. Then we go to make a standard deck and can't use BLOODBRAID ELF! You go to make a vintage deck, and can't use TEZZERET. That is just laughable. You can see it, you can put it in your deck, and you can lose when it does nothing.
I am interested to learn more about what other players think about the current state of challenge mode. I also am interested to learn if Jatill or other programers really wont just evaluate Challenge Mode to see if it could be made better. That would make all of their hours of hard work go into an end result people love instead of one they give up on because it is just too much work to get a good experience.
Although I want comments I went ahead and added a poll for people who like that option. I went did not put my personal inflection on the text. We can get into what you would like to see happen if you think its not good enough in your reply, but I wanted to show the community some hard data democracy style.
Thanks for reading all that....
Tattooed Oni
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Re: Can we re-examine challenge mode?
by stassy » 23 Nov 2009, 04:53
jatill had to code everything alone when others dev stopped support ML 2.0, I don't blame him for making a "challenge" to be worthy to use cards that he coded for himself 1st.
There is the wiki, mostly everything for creating cards is in it so if you want badly a challenge card you can't have, you can just create one for yourself.
Currently the only card I don't have unlocked is 5:1 because of game crash but others challenge are doable, and unlockable under any mean. It's more fun to do it legit but you can cheat your way up to 5:1...or ask for a save file
There is the wiki, mostly everything for creating cards is in it so if you want badly a challenge card you can't have, you can just create one for yourself.
Currently the only card I don't have unlocked is 5:1 because of game crash but others challenge are doable, and unlockable under any mean. It's more fun to do it legit but you can cheat your way up to 5:1...or ask for a save file
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Re: Can we re-examine challenge mode?
by 0rion79 » 23 Nov 2009, 08:19
Well, I am among the ones that never liked it. Still, someother do and Jatill has agreed to gradually remove the lock from the challenge mode reward cards during time.
So, if people want to use them immediatelly, they have to win the challenge mode, else they have to wait a lot and, in the mean time, they may still build decks with them.
have fun!
So, if people want to use them immediatelly, they have to win the challenge mode, else they have to wait a lot and, in the mean time, they may still build decks with them.
have fun!
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Re: Can we re-examine challenge mode?
by Snacko » 23 Nov 2009, 11:37
Edit: You can cheat but no one will tell you how 
You can still play the challenges if you like them (some are really creative), but you get all the cards.
You can still play the challenges if you like them (some are really creative), but you get all the cards.
Last edited by Snacko on 23 Nov 2009, 13:50, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Can we re-examine challenge mode?
by Systral » 23 Nov 2009, 12:19
I beat all of the old challenges other than 5:1 (which I didn't even try because it seemed so contrived) but I can't really say that I had much fun with them. I'd much rather play a gauntlet where the cpu used better decks instead of dumb tribal decks that you have to beat with dumb decks of your own due to artificial constraints. Plus like the OP said it was annoying to see cards in the deckbuilder and in drafts that you can't use so I felt like I had to do the challenges to get rid of an annoyance rather than doing it for fun. I haven't downloaded challenge #3 and probably won't, the frustration of losing at the end of a round due to a bad draw or a crash is not worth the feeling of relief when you eventually beat it.
But ofc it's up to the programmer to include cards in whatever fashion he wishes, with or without challenge mode and the extra cards it unlocks the game is still great fun. So please do not take the above as whining
But ofc it's up to the programmer to include cards in whatever fashion he wishes, with or without challenge mode and the extra cards it unlocks the game is still great fun. So please do not take the above as whining
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Re: Can we re-examine challenge mode?
by jatill » 23 Nov 2009, 13:44
Honestly, it's posts like this that make me want to drop out of this project. It just seems so... greedy. Why do you think you are entitled to play Bloodbraid Elf? Is it part of the original game? Did you write the card? Did you pay for it?
Every one of the 1500+ cards I have written have been for free. No cost to anyone... except myself. I have spend hundreds of hours on this project over the last year. If it weren't for all that time spent, you'd still be in the manalink stone age. So I'm sorry if I don't feel bad that 1% of the cards in the game are only available the players willing to put in some time to unlock them.
I mean, seriously. Do you expect me to send you a copy of all the paper cards too? Because that's what your request sounds like to me. "Give me something for nothing, please. At your expense." No thanks.
If you want a version of this game without challenge mode, I'd be happily to oblige. It just won't include the challenge cards. Would you prefer that option?
Disclaimer: I know this post may sound harsh or whiney or whatever, but this is one issue (people making demands from a volunteer effort) I'm really sensitive to.
Every one of the 1500+ cards I have written have been for free. No cost to anyone... except myself. I have spend hundreds of hours on this project over the last year. If it weren't for all that time spent, you'd still be in the manalink stone age. So I'm sorry if I don't feel bad that 1% of the cards in the game are only available the players willing to put in some time to unlock them.
I mean, seriously. Do you expect me to send you a copy of all the paper cards too? Because that's what your request sounds like to me. "Give me something for nothing, please. At your expense." No thanks.
If you want a version of this game without challenge mode, I'd be happily to oblige. It just won't include the challenge cards. Would you prefer that option?
Disclaimer: I know this post may sound harsh or whiney or whatever, but this is one issue (people making demands from a volunteer effort) I'm really sensitive to.
Apps by jatill: http://www.slightlymagic.net/wiki/Other_Apps_by_jatill
Re: Can we re-examine challenge mode?
by Fracturedorb » 23 Nov 2009, 14:24
"If you want a version of this game without challenge mode, I'd be happily to oblige. It just won't include the challenge cards. Would you prefer that option? "
Yes actually. Part of the problem with challenge mode and the cards is that there's no way in game to know which cards are locked and what exactly you have to do to unlick them. Add into that not knowing exactly what cards are banned/restricted from the legacy format, what cards are banned/restricted for each challenge, not knowing how many rounds you have to get through, crashes on some OS's (although vista seems to run it fine now and thanks a LOT for that), and no ability to save and come back as some of these challenges take a LONG time to get through.
I honestly like the idea of the challenge mode. I like hte idea of unlocking some cards as it gives the game a purpose again other than making a new deck to beat the clumsy AI. But without and sort of direction to it the mode is hard to deal with for some of us.
None of us are ungrateful for what's been done, don't think that. A little more direction either in game or as part of the launcher would be nice. Also maybe the text on the cards name could change once locked or unlocked. Maybe Bloodbraid Elf could read BloodBraid Elf (Locked) or Bloodbraid Efl (Unlocked)?
Yes actually. Part of the problem with challenge mode and the cards is that there's no way in game to know which cards are locked and what exactly you have to do to unlick them. Add into that not knowing exactly what cards are banned/restricted from the legacy format, what cards are banned/restricted for each challenge, not knowing how many rounds you have to get through, crashes on some OS's (although vista seems to run it fine now and thanks a LOT for that), and no ability to save and come back as some of these challenges take a LONG time to get through.
I honestly like the idea of the challenge mode. I like hte idea of unlocking some cards as it gives the game a purpose again other than making a new deck to beat the clumsy AI. But without and sort of direction to it the mode is hard to deal with for some of us.
None of us are ungrateful for what's been done, don't think that. A little more direction either in game or as part of the launcher would be nice. Also maybe the text on the cards name could change once locked or unlocked. Maybe Bloodbraid Elf could read BloodBraid Elf (Locked) or Bloodbraid Efl (Unlocked)?
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Re: Can we re-examine challenge mode?
by Gargaroz » 23 Nov 2009, 15:50
Perhaps I'm dumb, but I really can't figure out what format is Challenge mode 1. Type 1.5 ? What banlist is using ?
----
- Current / medium term task: adjusting the code for making Misdirection and such usable
- Long term task: inserting all the good stuff I left out from the "Golden Years" mod
- Current / medium term task: adjusting the code for making Misdirection and such usable
- Long term task: inserting all the good stuff I left out from the "Golden Years" mod
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Re: Can we re-examine challenge mode?
by Tattooedoni » 23 Nov 2009, 17:47
@Jatill: It seems I need to re-iterate the fact that I really do appreciate all of the work that the programers have done. The mod is great and an achievement to be proud of. I understand why you would feel so strongly if you percieve your good work as being disrespected. I wasn't making any demands at all. I was asking for player opinion and for programers to reconsider the locking down of cards that you have already programmed. Making those cards playable doesn't require the same work as programing them so it is not like I am asking you for free cards. I am asking to use the cards you already gave me.
No I did not program bloodbraid elf, you did. Then you showed me it was there, I could build a deck with it, I could draft it, but it wasn't going to work unless I fufilled the requirements you put on them. That's fine to do and I don't demand you unlock them. I would ask you to rethink your system because I don't see who it benifits. I guess if you want to lord it over me that you are a better programer than me I will gladdly grant you that. I would also honestly tell you that I think the system sucks for people trying to enjoy it, your a gifted programmer but a poor designer, and that you are activly making people dislike the thing you spent so much time on. I am not saying your a bad person, or you owe me cards, or anything like that. I am saying that I think you should take another look at it and try to improve it if you want other people to like playing what you made. If you don't care the obviously there is no reason to change it.
@gargaroz: you are not dumb, there are no clear instructions.
Other posters: please pm me if you have good secret info that could help me.
No I did not program bloodbraid elf, you did. Then you showed me it was there, I could build a deck with it, I could draft it, but it wasn't going to work unless I fufilled the requirements you put on them. That's fine to do and I don't demand you unlock them. I would ask you to rethink your system because I don't see who it benifits. I guess if you want to lord it over me that you are a better programer than me I will gladdly grant you that. I would also honestly tell you that I think the system sucks for people trying to enjoy it, your a gifted programmer but a poor designer, and that you are activly making people dislike the thing you spent so much time on. I am not saying your a bad person, or you owe me cards, or anything like that. I am saying that I think you should take another look at it and try to improve it if you want other people to like playing what you made. If you don't care the obviously there is no reason to change it.
@gargaroz: you are not dumb, there are no clear instructions.
Other posters: please pm me if you have good secret info that could help me.
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Re: Can we re-examine challenge mode?
by jatill » 23 Nov 2009, 18:02
Just for you Fracturedorb. Just stop after the third bullet.Fracturedorb wrote:"If you want a version of this game without challenge mode, I'd be happily to oblige. It just won't include the challenge cards. Would you prefer that option? "
Yes actually.
http://www.slightlymagic.net/wiki/Installation
For a non-saracstic comment, the "Zendikar/Limited" version has no locked cards, including Bloodbraid, etc. The reason is (as the original poster mentioned) that it's frustrating to get cards in Draft that won't work. So it's not that I'm not open to suggestions, but I tend to disregard those that undermine the entire challenge system.
Last edited by jatill on 23 Nov 2009, 18:11, edited 1 time in total.
Apps by jatill: http://www.slightlymagic.net/wiki/Other_Apps_by_jatill
Re: Can we re-examine challenge mode?
by jatill » 23 Nov 2009, 18:05
I updated the docs to mention what deck legality is used in general (i.e. Vintage or Legacy legal decks only)Gargaroz wrote:Perhaps I'm dumb, but I really can't figure out what format is Challenge mode 1. Type 1.5 ? What banlist is using ?
http://www.slightlymagic.net/wiki/Challenge_Mode
Apps by jatill: http://www.slightlymagic.net/wiki/Other_Apps_by_jatill
Re: Can we re-examine challenge mode?
by Gargaroz » 23 Nov 2009, 18:15
Ok, but there are still some anomalies regarding Legacy, like 4 Skullclamp allowed 
Last edited by Gargaroz on 23 Nov 2009, 18:16, edited 1 time in total.
----
- Current / medium term task: adjusting the code for making Misdirection and such usable
- Long term task: inserting all the good stuff I left out from the "Golden Years" mod
- Current / medium term task: adjusting the code for making Misdirection and such usable
- Long term task: inserting all the good stuff I left out from the "Golden Years" mod
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Re: Can we re-examine challenge mode?
by gmzombie » 23 Nov 2009, 18:16
i would just like to chime in for a second. Do i like the reward for the challenges yes. have i beaten any of them yet...lol no. im not as good as i once was at magic but i still have fun with them. I love any and all work that is done to this project and i feel that although i would like the cards unlocked i will get better at the game so i can unlock them. i like challenges and am not against them at all. i understand everybodies opinion and respect all of them but without Jatill we wouldnt be half as far with the newest cards..the real question is can we figure out how to break the 2000 card code limit. I know i can just give opinions and theories but how about you? what do you think. Is there anyway to bribe Snacko to help? a sacrifice or something lol but seriously this is my opinion and 3 cents...
lol but seriously this is my opinion and 3 cents...can I maze of ith your snowstorm?
http://home.comcast.net/~gmzombie/index.html old stuff in here. don't use this stuff right now till I get time to get back into it and readjust.
http://home.comcast.net/~gmzombie/index.html old stuff in here. don't use this stuff right now till I get time to get back into it and readjust.
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Re: Can we re-examine challenge mode?
by jatill » 23 Nov 2009, 18:23
I PM'd Snacko earlier today and it sounds as if we can assume that he will never break the limit for us. So it's either someone else, or we stick with 2000 forever.gmzombie wrote:the real question is can we figure out how to break the 2000 card code limit. I know i can just give opinions and theories but how about you? what do you think. Is there anyway to bribe Snacko to help?
Apps by jatill: http://www.slightlymagic.net/wiki/Other_Apps_by_jatill
Re: Can we re-examine challenge mode?
by EviL_CLonE » 23 Nov 2009, 18:29
Dudes, Jatill added like 1000 new cards, new options and new possibilities to an almost-extinted game, and you are crying because you can't play with 4 or 5 "hidden" cards... Man, that's so ungrateful.
A challenge is exactly what its name says: a CHALLENGE!!! Difficult, frustrating, annoying sometimes! It means that you have to think a lot to complete it! I have wonderful decks made with none of the rewarded cards, and i'm happy with them.
A challenge is exactly what its name says: a CHALLENGE!!! Difficult, frustrating, annoying sometimes! It means that you have to think a lot to complete it! I have wonderful decks made with none of the rewarded cards, and i'm happy with them.
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