Can we re-examine challenge mode?

[grinnin]

I'd just like to pipe in here and say 'thank you' to Jatill, for both the incredible work that has been done on the cards and the game itself, and also for the Challenge Mode.

I have only completed 2 challenges so far, but I feel that they've been a great experience. Sure i'm annoyed that I can't try out Stax because three of the important cards are locked. But I look at it more as I did when I was playing the original 'stone age' Magic.exe for the past few years- a limited card pool (even 'artifically limited') forces one to try new cards. One can't play a certain deck because, for you, the challenge may not equal the rewards. But that doesn't mean that there aren't hundreds of other deck options out there. Hell I played magic for years but I never tried a stasis deck until I was bored on Magic.exe a few years ago. What I thought would be a horribly boring deck turned out to be, well still horribly boring, but also interesting enough the first few games.

I think challenge mode is a great way to make those that are willing try new decks, new strategies, and compare notes with other players. I'm coming to Manalink having not played Magic in ten years so I'm finding its a great way to learn new strategies (iso scepter, affinity) and new cards ('whats this Academy everyone talks about?') and to also make me a better player.

Sure it can be very frustrating and maybe a save feature would be a good addition, but overall its a net positive and I just want to say 'thanks'

[Professor]

Well, last week I was saying that I'd tried Challenge 1 about 60 times without the ultimate success. I can now happily report that I can finally play with whatever G/W card it is I just won!

P.S. I didn't actually "beat" the 10th deck... I lost miserably to it, topdecking win cards my final 2 turns, only to have them each countered. But then the next game I started (not even another challenge) began with a window congratulating me for unlocking a card. I do believe in Santa Claus! I really do!

[bubbabobbean]

Hello everyone, this is my first post on these boards. I want to preface this post by saying that I really enjoy playing the client, and I appreciate all of the hard work that goes into it.

This is my first post as well. I've played Duels of the Planeswalkers on/ and off since it was released (not very heavily) but I still own the CD. The game was never all that interesting, but being the Magic geek I am, there was some enjoyment to playing it. I haven't touched the game in the last few years, and I discovered this project in August. Since then I've been playing a few rounds of challenge mode just about 4-5 days out of the week. The project has re-sparked my interest in this game in a way that the origional game never could. I am also a Software Engineer for a chemical company and I can't tell you how much in awe I am of the amount of time and effort required to pull this project together. I'm going to take a wild guess that Tattoedoni is not a programer. I think anyone that has done any serious work with software can gain that much more appreciation for the work that was done here. There seems to be much work left to do too. Software projects are never going to be perfect the moment they come out. They take many many iterations to be molded into just the right way. I have faith that Jatill will come through and produce more quality updates to this projects, and produce them in the way he wants them to function.

I deal with lots of people like Tattoedoni who I refer to as 'users of software' these are people that really just kind of expect things to work and have no understaning of what it takes to make it work. These 'users' have this unrealistic expectation on how software are supposed to work. They have become so accustomed to software that has been developed by teams and coorperations. It is worth noting that this project was done by a small group of people. They are really under no obligation to do anything other then what they want to. It's amazing the treatment that the 'users' give to developers. It's almost like developers are slaveworkers to the 'users' and the 'users' think they are entitled to a certain level of an opinion. If you want to contribute your opinion for an independent project, then pick up a C++ book and start writing.

The worst part of this thread is slap in the face to Jatill for all of the work that has been done. I certainly am one that would like to see this project continue. The challenge mode has been the most entertaining part of the project so far. Why not just play the game as Jatill wants it to be played? Tattoedoni, please leave the 'oh this game is good but I don't want to have to read any of the documentation and if I were developing this I'd have done it this way' comments to yourself in the future, they are not constructive.

[Marek14]

I deal with lots of people like Tattoedoni who I refer to as 'users of software' these are people that really just kind of expect things to work and have no understaning of what it takes to make it work. These 'users' have this unrealistic expectation on how software are supposed to work. They have become so accustomed to software that has been developed by teams and coorperations. It is worth noting that this project was done by a small group of people.

I'd like to react to this part. Software that is developed by teams and corporations is also extensively tested, much more than is possible with small group of people. For small software project, the users are the testers. Therefore, I think that small projects' developers have to listen to their users much more closely then corporations. Every user's opinion matters. It's not that developers are slaves to the users - it's that developers need the feedback because the users' experience with the product (if we measure it as nomber of hours of use) is greater than their own thanks to larger number of users.

I've seen this with Incantus and with MTG Forge. I can point out a problem, and if it's reasonable, it gets solved (especially if I propose a way to do it), even if I'm the only one to be bothered by it. I am not a good practical programmer, but I can think in algorithms.

If something bothers significant number of people, developers SHOULD address it, one way or another. The poll on this thread shows deadlock - I think that means the various problems people have with challenge mode should be addressed separately. They are:

1. Difficulty of challenges. What IS the difficulty based on? Can it be measured in a reasonable way? What would be the right level of difficulty? How can it be altered?
2. Rewards. Are rewards enjoyed by the same group of people who enjoy the challenges? Is the right reward attached to the right challenge? How could this system be improved? Are there other things than cards that would work better as rewards? Are there challenges that would be more enjoyable for people who want particular card?

I think we need to talk about these two things.

[bubbabobbean]

I'd like to react to this part. Software that is developed by teams and corporations is also extensively tested, much more than is possible with small group of people. For small software project, the users are the testers. Therefore, I think that small projects' developers have to listen to their users much more closely then corporations.

My contention is more the expectations that are placed on the developers. Yes your users' and testers' feedback are your main source of information on how well it works. I agree maybe even more so then from a commercial software project. Good software take lots of thought, time, and effort to produce. I don't think the developers are doing any of this for any kind of money and are most likely developing in between other things going on in their lives.

I personally am more then satisfied with what has been produced and appreciate their time and effort. I wouldn't change a thing. I have gotten 6 challenges beat and am looking forward to getting the others beat in due time. I think having the best cards locked is ideal because its that much more incentive to play and enjoy playing what they have written. The game may frustrate at times but that is all part of the experience.

I'd draw an analogy to older video games. Most games nowadays take you through the game and really are easy to beat, they may be visually stunning and have a story to them but you can save the game anywhere and if you die you start from where you saved from. Not much of a challenge. Older video games where you have 3 lives and if you die you start from the beginning I always thought were much more entertaining because you have to put some skill into beating it and when you did the end was much more rewarding for that effort.

I don't think any of the challenges are unbeatable, they do take some skill to devise and tweak a deck in such a way to beat the challenge, and even better there is the random chance that you may not always get the best draw to win. That's all part of the experience and I think that would get lost by changing it around.

This is good discussion to have for sure, but I wouldn't really want to place any expectations on the developers. They have a good idea of what they are doing.

[gmzombie]

bubba you said your a software engineer. do you have experience with ASM and c+. If you do, do you have any suggestions for the 2000 card limit that is currently in affect due to coding of arrays in the game. i just wanna poke your brain for a minute cause the more peeps we get to think about it we may get someone who can actually do it. I dunno if it would take rewriting the game in c+ to get over the arrays or what. Im no coder by any means and everything that i try and find for the dev's to use is mostly on a basis that i like to jump into things head on without a helmet lol.

[CirothUngol]

The Skinny:
Challenge Mode = Good.

The Phat:
I bought Microprose's MtG v1.0 when it was released and it quickly became the most played PC Game I'd ever owned. I built scores of decks using that relatively tiny library of cards, playing the game nearly every day... at least a few quick hands. I played (the rather buggy and frustrating) Shandalar 6 or 7 times, always starting on Wizard Level, and losing every single time. I didn't blame the game as I knew that a re-think on my strategy was in order. Luckily I'd get a chance to use it on...
Spells of the Ancients! I was excited to go buy the new addition of Microprose's MtG, and I didn't mind shelling out $30 or $40 to get a stack of new (old) cards and an updated Shandalar. My improved strategy worked and after 2 or 3 more games I was triumphant in Shadalar! This new version also came with a neat little treat... Sealed Deck Mode! An entire new way to enjoy the game, and boy did I. It quickly became my new favorite way to play, but it wasn't long before...
Duels of the Planeswalkers! Hot on the heels of the previous release, Microprose's newest version contained an updated AI, Online Play and another new stack of cards (plus all the cards I'd just bought a couple of months back, that was annoying). So I once again shelled out $$$ for the priviledge of playing the game in it's most complete incarnation (I was quite the addict back then ^_^). Hundreds of Decks, Dozens of Shandalar Triumphs, Many Years and probably Thousands of Sealed Deck Tournaments later I was still playing this gem well into the new Windows Era. Mok's Manalink 1.32 made it easy to transport and install, but most importantly made Shandalar playable on newer machines. Eventually, the luster fell from this Gem and I stopped playing it. It was the lack of cards. I'd made so many Decks, played so many Tournaments... I even completed the Gauntlet on Hard (50 games, 1 of 1). Twice. With 2 different decks. With such a small, finite library of cards there are only so many different Mechanics, Themes, Combos and Decks you can produce. The long-lived Beast was tamed and fell silent, until...
Mok's Manalink 2.0! I discovered it last year while searching the Net for info on running MtG on Windows XP. I was flabberghasted. I couldn't believe it. Here was an update to end all updates! It included more cool stuff than both of the expansions I had purchased combined... and it was FREE! I became a daily user again in no time. Making Decks, playing Tournaments of 8th Edition and yes, even playing Shandalar again. An old favorite was back and fit more comfortably than ever. While I wished that Mok would've been able to complete it, and that I knew where to contact him (just to say "Thanx"), I was simply estatic to have this Improved and More Complete version of the game at my disposal. I figured that this, being as totaly unexpected and out-of-left-field as it was, would most likely be the final installment that I'd ever see. In the off chance that I was wrong, I was searching for an update earlier this year when I found...
This Forum! Several months back I found this forum on CCGH who's Members had reverse-engineered Mok's 2.0 release and were slowly adding new Cards, new Artwork, new Play modes, new Game Mechanics... All for FREE! As I write this now and the developers (that's you, Jatill ^_^) are rapidly approaching the 2000 card hard-wired limit I can only look back and marvel. The game is currently several times Bigger and Badder than the original incarnation that I sunk ~$100 into. Which brings me to the Question of Challenge Mode.
I like it. It does what it's supposed to do. It challenges me, not so much in a "Playing the Duel" sorta way, but more in a "Build a Deck to Kill It" sorta way. I like that. It's something that the original game didn't have, it's innovative, and it's fun. Hard? Sure. Frustrating? Yes. Unfair? Of Course, that's the Challenge! If I can't complete it then I just won't play with that card. Period. Funny thing is, I didn't really miss it a few months ago when it wasn't there, and there are likely to be hundreds of Decks and thousands of Tournaments between now and a time when I do miss it. Draft Tournaments, Rampage, Cycling, Momir Basic, Exalted, Dredge, Kicker... Damn! The list of improvements is both extensive and impressive All for FREE! Hallelujah Brother. Amen.
Could Challenge Mode be Improved? Sure it could. Am I in any way dissatisfied with Jatill's decision to impliment it in the exact way that he did? Not at all. I triumphed over Shadalar. I conquered the Gauntlet. If you ask me, Challenge Mode is just another Lamb for the eventual Slaughter... only this Lamb has Nasty Teeth and might take a little time and a few re-thinks in Deck Strategy, but that's OK. I've already got over a Decade invested in this game in it's many incarnations. What's a few hundred more games between friends? ^_^

Incidently, if anyone is having trouble with the very 1st challenge (Tribal Trials), I would suggest using Salbei's Tabernacle Oath deck available on His Website. After losing a few times with my own decks, I walked all over it twice in a row using that deck. Like I said, a definite re-think of my stategy is in order.

[stassy]

Well, last week I was saying that I'd tried Challenge 1 about 60 times without the ultimate success. I can now happily report that I can finally play with whatever G/W card it is I just won!

P.S. I didn't actually "beat" the 10th deck... I lost miserably to it, topdecking win cards my final 2 turns, only to have them each countered. But then the next game I started (not even another challenge) began with a window congratulating me for unlocking a card. I do believe in Santa Claus! I really do!

I had myself a weird "bug" about card unlock some weeks ago...I beat the Enchanted Evening challenge and tried immediately with Gather no moss without restarting game (which is supposed to validate the unlock).

I "lost" at match 3 because game freezed against an affinity deck (moat+ton of lands+ton of wallz ftw) and when I restarted manalink I had Gather no moss shown as unlocked and Enchanted Evening shown as locked...

[jatill]

Well, last week I was saying that I'd tried Challenge 1 about 60 times without the ultimate success. I can now happily report that I can finally play with whatever G/W card it is I just won!

P.S. I didn't actually "beat" the 10th deck... I lost miserably to it, topdecking win cards my final 2 turns, only to have them each countered. But then the next game I started (not even another challenge) began with a window congratulating me for unlocking a card. I do believe in Santa Claus! I really do!

I had myself a weird "bug" about card unlock some weeks ago...I beat the Enchanted Evening challenge and tried immediately with Gather no moss without restarting game (which is supposed to validate the unlock).

I "lost" at match 3 because game freezed against an affinity deck (moat+ton of lands+ton of wallz ftw) and when I restarted manalink I had Gather no moss shown as unlocked and Enchanted Evening shown as locked...

I'm guessing you don't have the most recent version. The 2 unlock codes were inadvertently switched for one release.

[Bog Wraith]

The Skinny:
Challenge Mode = Good.

The Phat:
I bought Microprose's MtG v1.0 when it was released and it quickly became the most played PC Game I'd ever owned. I built scores of decks using that relatively tiny library of cards, playing the game nearly every day... at least a few quick hands. I played (the rather buggy and frustrating) Shandalar 6 or 7 times, always starting on Wizard Level, and losing every single time. I didn't blame the game as I knew that a re-think on my strategy was in order. Luckily I'd get a chance to use it on...
Spells of the Ancients! I was excited to go buy the new addition of Microprose's MtG, and I didn't mind shelling out $30 or $40 to get a stack of new (old) cards and an updated Shandalar. My improved strategy worked and after 2 or 3 more games I was triumphant in Shadalar! This new version also came with a neat little treat... Sealed Deck Mode! An entire new way to enjoy the game, and boy did I. It quickly became my new favorite way to play, but it wasn't long before...
Duels of the Planeswalkers! Hot on the heels of the previous release, Microprose's newest version contained an updated AI, Online Play and another new stack of cards (plus all the cards I'd just bought a couple of months back, that was annoying). So I once again shelled out $$$ for the priviledge of playing the game in it's most complete incarnation (I was quite the addict back then ^_^). Hundreds of Decks, Dozens of Shandalar Triumphs, Many Years and probably Thousands of Sealed Deck Tournaments later I was still playing this gem well into the new Windows Era. Mok's Manalink 1.32 made it easy to transport and install, but most importantly made Shandalar playable on newer machines. Eventually, the luster fell from this Gem and I stopped playing it. It was the lack of cards. I'd made so many Decks, played so many Tournaments... I even completed the Gauntlet on Hard (50 games, 1 of 1). Twice. With 2 different decks. With such a small, finite library of cards there are only so many different Mechanics, Themes, Combos and Decks you can produce. The long-lived Beast was tamed and fell silent, until...
Mok's Manalink 2.0! I discovered it last year while searching the Net for info on running MtG on Windows XP. I was flabberghasted. I couldn't believe it. Here was an update to end all updates! It included more cool stuff than both of the expansions I had purchased combined... and it was FREE! I became a daily user again in no time. Making Decks, playing Tournaments of 8th Edition and yes, even playing Shandalar again. An old favorite was back and fit more comfortably than ever. While I wished that Mok would've been able to complete it, and that I knew where to contact him (just to say "Thanx"), I was simply estatic to have this Improved and More Complete version of the game at my disposal. I figured that this, being as totaly unexpected and out-of-left-field as it was, would most likely be the final installment that I'd ever see. In the off chance that I was wrong, I was searching for an update earlier this year when I found...
This Forum! Several months back I found this forum on CCGH who's Members had reverse-engineered Mok's 2.0 release and were slowly adding new Cards, new Artwork, new Play modes, new Game Mechanics... All for FREE! As I write this now and the developers (that's you, Jatill ^_^) are rapidly approaching the 2000 card hard-wired limit I can only look back and marvel. The game is currently several times Bigger and Badder than the original incarnation that I sunk ~$100 into. Which brings me to the Question of Challenge Mode.
I like it. It does what it's supposed to do. It challenges me, not so much in a "Playing the Duel" sorta way, but more in a "Build a Deck to Kill It" sorta way. I like that. It's something that the original game didn't have, it's innovative, and it's fun. Hard? Sure. Frustrating? Yes. Unfair? Of Course, that's the Challenge! If I can't complete it then I just won't play with that card. Period. Funny thing is, I didn't really miss it a few months ago when it wasn't there, and there are likely to be hundreds of Decks and thousands of Tournaments between now and a time when I do miss it. Draft Tournaments, Rampage, Cycling, Momir Basic, Exalted, Dredge, Kicker... Damn! The list of improvements is both extensive and impressive All for FREE! Hallelujah Brother. Amen.
Could Challenge Mode be Improved? Sure it could. Am I in any way dissatisfied with Jatill's decision to impliment it in the exact way that he did? Not at all. I triumphed over Shadalar. I conquered the Gauntlet. If you ask me, Challenge Mode is just another Lamb for the eventual Slaughter... only this Lamb has Nasty Teeth and might take a little time and a few re-thinks in Deck Strategy, but that's OK. I've already got over a Decade invested in this game in it's many incarnations. What's a few hundred more games between friends? ^_^

Incidently, if anyone is having trouble with the very 1st challenge (Tribal Trials), I would suggest using Salbei's Tabernacle Oath deck available on His Website. After losing a few times with my own decks, I walked all over it twice in a row using that deck. Like I said, a definite re-think of my stategy is in order.

Very well said my friend. You covered all the topics I would have and in a very eloquent way!

I too have played this game like, forever! Thousands and thousands of duels, Sealed Deck tournaments, Gauntlets and many, many forays into Shandalar! The game never grew old for me.

As part of Mok's orignal Alpha testers, I have seen this game change from the start. I marveled at what he did and I was very saddened when it came to an end.

Some of the original testers picked up the pieces and added what they could by replacing cards already coded in, but did not have the knowledge in how to add new ones.

Along came guys like Harry and Jatill and the sky, or the 2000 card wall, was the limit.

I am forever gratefull to all of these great folks for making ManaLink what it is. I will forever be in their debt. Jatill can do what he feels is best. He is doing the work!
Sure, the Challenges are tough, and frustrating, but if I can't beat them, then I guess I wont be playing with those locked cards!

So be it!

I love this game more then any other computer game I have ever owned. I thank all who have helped to bring it to where it is today.

Oh, and a side note. Jatill will always be my favorite. You see he gave me my favorite card. The one that even Mok said could never be done due to the restrictions of the game code.

Jatill gave me Necropotence, IMHO, the greatest card in Magic history!
I'll always be grateful for that!

[gmzombie]

do not forget mana drain..i believe mok said he couldnt do that either.. but never the less great words

[bubbabobbean]

bubba you said your a software engineer. do you have experience with ASM and c+. If you do, do you have any suggestions for the 2000 card limit that is currently in affect due to coding of arrays in the game. i just wanna poke your brain for a minute cause the more peeps we get to think about it we may get someone who can actually do it. I dunno if it would take rewriting the game in c+ to get over the arrays or what. Im no coder by any means and everything that i try and find for the dev's to use is mostly on a basis that i like to jump into things head on without a helmet lol.

Zombie, My professional experience involves mostly .NET languages (vb/asp/c#) the easy languages. I'm afraid my c++ and assembly experience is only limited to what I learned in University. We studied ARM too, not ASM. However for the amount I play this game I do feel that I should be contributing something. I think it's time I dust off my C++ book and dive in. I can take a look and what's written and see if there is anyway I can contribute. (Even as small as providing bugfixes) I'm happy to help out. Let me do a little homework and dive in. I've not really looked at anything written yet so it may take me a bit to understand (If I can even do that!).

[Tattooedoni]

@BubbaBobBean: Well it seems obvious you read my first post and then went straight to crafting a response without reading the rest of the discussion. I guess that helps focus your venom without pesky setbacks like context or relavence. Since your jumping in late to attack me personally I can't help but reply.

First of all you start out quoting me saying I appreciate the hard work going into it then you start saying I don't appreciate it. How can you possibly know that I actually don't? Is it because having not programed anything myself I am incappable of understanding hard work, or the value of someones time? I personally do understand it. I have not programed a card for this game, but I have poured my time and effort into personal crafts that I later share with other people. Beyond that I have witnessesed, voulenteered, worked with, worked for , and heard tales of thousands of hours of work performed designing games, manufacturing games, programming games, testing games, writting books, writting films, producing films, editing films, desining websites, coding websites, cooking food, studying for university, studying for technical crtifications, taking tests, drawing, painting, tattooing, and so on and so forth. I guess you just have to take my word that I actually do appreciate Jatill's work and the others before him. Given all that experience I also understand the severely deffensive and honestly completely arrogant backlash from folks especially programers. You equate critisism with insult or ungratefulness. I love the game want others to play it, and enjoy it.

Obviously this part of the game is something people want to express their opinions on it, and this has been a place to do that. What you, Jatill, or anyone including me doeswith the opinions given is up to them. I have never made a demand or used the opinons in this thread to provoke others to demand a change be made by "slave programers". I have expressed what I feel about it and heard what others have to say. To the people who like it I don't say they are wrong to like it, I ask them questions if they think it could be improved from the state it is in now.

It is like your arguing for an artists right to create what they want. Other people can say what the think about the art, even that it could *gasp* be improved without sending a messgae that they somehow control what art gets made. It also doesn't send the message the art is wrong, the artist sucks, or the at should be changed immediatly.

Try to remember that people are highly specialized creatures, and that just because they don't personally do something doesn't mean they are incapable of understanding it. If we weren't intellegent competitive people we wouldn't be members of a MTG centered online community. Well that and nerds.

[Systral]

Just wanted to say that after biting the bullet and downloading challenge mode #3 I was pleasantly surprised with the improvement over the first two parts. The challenges seemed more balanced and were all beatable within a reasonable time frame with a little experimenting. So my hat's off to Jatill for sticking with it and refining the concept. Here's a couple of thoughts for possible future improvement to popped into my head while playing:

* The burden of losing and having to retry is a lot heavier when you've invested a lot of time, and eventually this discourages people from playing slower decks that require a lot of clicking. For example I first tried a prison deck for the Sliver Nation challenge and although I was certain that I could tweak it to beat it, I just said 'screw it' after a couple of tries and played a faster deck instead. Would a save feature really spoil the difficulty that much?

* Although restrictions on deckbuilding are fun for a couple of challenges, I don't think they should be too broad (e.g. only basics and duals for all challenges) or too narrow (I'm pretty sure everyone's Land Ho and Gather no moss decks look pretty much identical). Since the card pool is pretty narrow once you filter away all the useless stuff, I generally think that challenges that let the computer cheat by getting free cards, extra draws etc. are more fun than the ones that constrict deckbuilding.

* Perhaps make it so that you can't face the same decks more than once in one challenge for more variation and also add more control/prison/combo decks to the cpu's repertoire. I know the AI has a harder time playing such decks correctly but it kinda lessens the experience when the best choice for each challenge is a deck that starts with 4 Moat/4 Oath of Druids/4 Swords to Plowshares/4 Propaganda etc. Make aggro a more viable choice for the player.

[aww1979]

I agree with most of what Systral said, except possibly the save feature, and that depends what he meant by that.

If the save games weren't replayable more than once, I'd be fine with that. It would mean that if you didn't have the time to beat the challenge in one block, you could turn the computer off and come back to it later. For people with shared computers particularly, this would be handy, but it wouldn't make the challenges any easier, since your save game would be removed once you lost a match.

However, saving your game after each match so that whenever you lose, you can restart the gauntlet with the previous games completed defeats the entire point of challenge mode. This would in effect turn the game into 'baby mode' and all you would have to do is win 10 games (not consecutively) which ANYONE can do, probably in a single evening. The cards might as well just come unlocked if that were the case.