About Avacyn's stregnth in Revenge Campaign

[addict insane]

Hey guys, new to the forum, though I've lurked a bit.

Have you guys pitted your modded decks from 2014 against avacyn's glory? Have you won those matches?

I ask because I recently went back to the modded version of 2014 and got beaten senseless by avacyn's glory in the revenge campaign.

I used the Replenish deck that made it to the top 4 in the Brussels world championship (I think it was Brussels), I used the Archbound Ravager deck that is banned from block, I used just about every modded deck I liked and the only deck I could beat it consistently with was a reanimator with Iona, shield of Emeria in it (7/7, choose a color, opponents can't play spells of the chosen color).

My question is, do I just suck at magic or is the revenge campaign match-up really weirdly strong? It always has an answer to everything you've got, it always pulls the card advantage, pulls the Mentor of the Meek with unbelievable consistency thoguh the deck builder says there's only one Mentor on the deck.

So have you ever pitted the revenge campaign against and ubber-strong modded deck and came out losing? Is the revenge campaign somehow rigged? Am I just a magic n00b?

(Not new to magic, btw)

[RiiakShiNal]

Several of the campaign decks are setup so that the AI will pull the exact same cards in the exact same order every time. Since they set up the decks with a draw order that suited the difficulty of the decks provided with the game (on the high end for difficulty) so unless you get a good draw order several of the campaign matches can be quite difficult. This is why you consistently see it pull Mentor of the Meek even though there is only one in the deck (it is because it is always drawn in the same order, unless you can force the AI to shuffle their deck).

So in some respects you can say that several of the campaign matches are "rigged".

If you want to see how powerful decks are against Avacyn's Glory then do a "Create from Existing" in the Deck Builder export it as a new deck then do a custom match with the exported Avacyn's Glory deck versus whatever modded deck you want to try and it will more fair as then the AI will properly shuffle the deck instead of using a predefined draw order.

[addict insane]

Gee, Riiak, thanks for the quick reply. Good job on the Deck builder, btw.

However, when i try to create an existing deck from a revenge deck, it doesn't show on the deck selector.

I've tried it with avacyn and with mind maze. Neither of them showed.

I tried with other decks created by me and it was fine.

[RiiakShiNal]

Gee, Riiak, thanks for the quick reply. Good job on the Deck builder, btw.

However, when i try to create an existing deck from a revenge deck, it doesn't show on the deck selector.

I've tried it with avacyn and with mind maze. Neither of them showed.

I tried with other decks created by me and it was fine.

Did you check the Deck Availability in the Deck Information page? When you Create from Existing the Deck Builder tries to inherit as much as it can from the original deck (which in the case of D14_REVENGE_HUMANS the availability is initially set to "Never Available").

[addict insane]

Done. Thanks.

I'm playing against the Revenge deck on Custom Game mode, and I can clearly see the difference in the consistency of its draw. Still, it's amazing the amount of modded decks that have no answer to Angelic Overseer with a human in play. Some just straightforward lose because avacyn has angels which are bigger than the decks creatures, and because they happen to fly.

[Kithkin]

Done. Thanks.

I'm playing against the Revenge deck on Custom Game mode, and I can clearly see the difference in the consistency of its draw. Still, it's amazing the amount of modded decks that have no answer to Angelic Overseer with a human in play. Some just straightforward lose because avacyn has angels which are bigger than the decks creatures, and because they happen to fly.

There should be a difference between playing against the Avacyn deck in Revenge Campaign and playing against it in Custom Game mode after rebuilding it with the Deck builder. In the Campaign the games are "fixed" while in Custom Game it is just another deck.

[Nick26]

I totally agree with you, Avacyn Glory is such a pain in revenge campaign, many times I lose even with control decks (which are supposed to destroy AG). It is unbelievable how AI can consistently cast 5 drops on turn 5 and champion of the parish/gather the townsfolk on turn 1 and 2. And in this kind of situation a turn 3 fiend hunter is just game. Not to mention how powerful are geist honored monk and increasing devotion, expecially with honor of the pure.

[RiiakShiNal]

I totally agree with you, Avacyn Glory is such a pain in revenge campaign, many times I lose even with control decks (which are supposed to destroy AG). It is unbelievable how AI can consistently cast 5 drops on turn 5 and champion of the parish/gather the townsfolk on turn 1 and 2. And in this kind of situation a turn 3 fiend hunter is just game. Not to mention how powerful are geist honored monk and increasing devotion, expecially with honor of the pure.

It's not unbelievable when you know how many matches work in the campaigns. They are designed such that the AI always has exactly the same deck order and hand each time and it was set up specifically to be very difficult. The decisions that the AI makes each time may vary depending on your deck and what you have, but the AI always starts with a set deck order for many of the matches so after several games you can just about say with certainty what the AI will do each turn based on how you are playing.

[addict insane]

I understand that the consistency of the A.I.'s plays is suspect (turn 3 Fiend Hunter all day long), but I've played many games lately against Avacyn's Glory in Revenge and have seen it even stuck in 3-4 lands for the entire game before loosing to me.

I'm not on the same level I was a few months ago where I would constantly loose to Avacyn's in Revenge. I do, however, only play decks that have answers to the Angel package and the turn one Champion of the Parish into barrage of humans aggresion.

This theory you guys have that the Revenge campaign has a preset of draws, is it because you've looked at the code or do you just assume that based on experience?

[RiiakShiNal]

This theory you guys have that the Revenge campaign has a preset of draws, is it because you've looked at the code or do you just assume that based on experience?

Some of the matches are randomized in their draws because they are set up as "two player duel" matches, while others are set in what they will draw each turn and are set as "mini duel" with a mini_duel_id which points to an XML structure which contains additional information to load up the game. For example the final fight with Ramaz using D14_URG_BOSS_DECK with Chandra helping uses mini_duel_id 30 which specifies that the game should load saved game encounter_3.XYL, AI Must Attack set to false (0), Turn Limit set to no limit (0), Starting Turn of 0, and Maintain the top 8 cards of the Library.

Since the game is "saved" with the exception of the player's deck (which is not stored allowing the player to choose any deck) it guarantees what will be drawn until a library (other than the player's) is shuffled by a card effect. Things like this can be looked up fairly easily by examining the XML files in the game WADs.

[addict insane]

This theory you guys have that the Revenge campaign has a preset of draws, is it because you've looked at the code or do you just assume that based on experience?

Some of the matches are randomized in their draws because they are set up as "two player duel" matches, while others are set in what they will draw each turn and are set as "mini duel" with a mini_duel_id which points to an XML structure which contains additional information to load up the game. For example the final fight with Ramaz using D14_URG_BOSS_DECK with Chandra helping uses mini_duel_id 30 which specifies that the game should load saved game encounter_3.XYL, AI Must Attack set to false (0), Turn Limit set to no limit (0), Starting Turn of 0, and Maintain the top 8 cards of the Library.

Since the game is "saved" with the exception of the player's deck (which is not stored allowing the player to choose any deck) it guarantees what will be drawn until a library (other than the player's) is shuffled by a card effect. Things like this can be looked up fairly easily by examining the XML files in the game WADs.

The reality of this is making me cry. I just lost a match to Avacyn's using a Legacy deck. Avacyn's beat me at turn 5 with 8/8 and 7/7 Champion of the Parish plus Fiend Hunter'ing my Primeval Titan and full board.