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question about rules, need help with judgement

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question about rules, need help with judgement

Postby terrysong » 06 Nov 2015, 09:59

First of all, I'm not sure if this is the place to post such a question, but I browsed other forums and didn't find a place to talk about rules specifically, so I'll just post it here.

This is based on a Magic 2014 2hg game five minutes ago:

I'm playing dragon deck and my teammate is playing avacyn's glory; my opponents are bounce and boon and some other deck(which is not important in this case)

The game went into a late stage that my teammate has a lot of 1/1 tokens and 2/2 small creatures, then he put down avacyn, angle of hope, which gives all creatures he controls indestructibility.

my opponent's soul wardens (+1 life when a creature enters the battleground) have been giving them huge amount of life due to tokens played by both him and my teammate. I have a jund charm (deals 2 damage to all creatures) in hand and I want to kill their soul wardens. I played jund charm right before my opponent tried to put down more tokens (I probably should have waited till the end of turn, but I really dont want them to get anymore life).

then, of course soul wardens were killed, and all of my teammates' tokens were marked with 2 damage, which made them all become either 1/0 or 2/0, but due to indestructibility they are still on the battleground.

then I suddenly regretted my decision, because my opponent still has mana open for a flickerwisp (exiles target permanent and returns it to battleground at the start of ending step). this could be a tipping point for the game and I could have made a serious mistake.

fortunately, my opponent didn't play the flickerwisp, I don't know if he just doesn't have it or didn't realize it, but we won the game. However, the question still remains, what would happen if my opponent flickerwisped the avacyn, angle of hope?

1) all tokens and creatures with 1/0 or 2/0 will die the moment avacyn, angle of hope leaves battleground due to state-based effects.

2) all tokens and creatures with 1/0 or 2/0 remains on the battleground until the end of turn, then flickwisp returns angle of hope back to battleground, then the cleanup step calculates the marked damage as lethal, but since those tokens get indestructibility back, they still won't die.

which one would be the case?

thanks!
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Re: question about rules, need help with judgement

Postby thefiremind » 06 Nov 2015, 10:28

EDIT: See Xander9009's answer below. I was actually remembering wrong and thought that Flickerwisp was a real "flicker" effect such as Cloudshift, but it isn't.
Last edited by thefiremind on 06 Nov 2015, 23:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: question about rules, need help with judgement

Postby Xander9009 » 06 Nov 2015, 15:49

State-based effects are checked during each step and immediately before any player would gain priority. They're never checked during a card's resolution, which makes them different from triggered abilities, which do consider what happens during a resolution. However, since the Flickerwisp would finish its effect and create a delayed trigger for end of turn, state-based effects would be checked as soon as the spell was done resolving right before you (or the active player) are given priority to do anything, meaning the tokens would die.

If it was Cloudshift, which does the whole effect in one resolution, without any delayed triggers, then for a moment, the tokens would have 0 toughness and would not have indestructibility, but state-based effects would not be checked until the ability was done resolving, and by then, that ability would have already returned the angel. Thus, the tokens would survive a Cloudshift being played on the angel, but not a Flickerwisp.

EDIT: Apparently, I was wrong about them being checked during each step. The only step in which state-based actions are checked without a player getting priority is the cleanup step. So, they're checked whenever a player would get priority (immediately before they do) and during the cleanup step. Same results, though. If anyone would get priority (which they would with the Flickerwisp) while the tokens have 0 toughness, then state-based effects will move those tokens to the graveyard immediately before that player gets priority.
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