You ruined it

[cheatsneverprosper]

Like most online game there's always some who want to cheat and ruin it for the rest of us, is DOTP any different? After reading some posts about editing cards and decks it wouldn't suprise me. I've seen 1 individual say don't take custom decks online.

Do you seriously think that someone who has a custom deck isn't going to take it online? You must be living in fairy land if you think people won't take them online.

Yeah DOTP doesn't have deck editing like MTGO, it's not meant to be MTGO, it is what it is. By editing it and taking cards online you ruin it for those that enjoy it the way it is, a more casual game than MTGO.

Then you wonder why it can take a long time to get a game, is it any wonder when you have people posting stuff on how to edit stuff. Even if you edit it for just single player, surely you're making it easier for yourself, and thus ruin it for yourself and then bitch about the game and ai. Personally I find the ai good, sometimes I win, sometimes I lose, why would you want to play a game where you know you're going to win everytime because your "custom" edited deck is too strong, no wonder scum cheats get bored quickly, perhaps it's a lack of something in their up-bringing that makes people want to cheat. In my day there were no cheat codes, no hax, you had to use your skill and determination, these days cheats want it now even if it means ruining it for others.

[omnix32]

cheatsneverprosper:

While we fully understand your concern, we can assure you that the game is more fun in the challenge of making cards we love and use to play with. Most the people here are coders and don't play the game much anyway.

As for cheating, everything is controlled through steam, and there are Anti-cheats in effect here. Also any Custom card used would be subject to the Sync check in the constants.LUA and make any game online unplayable with custom content anyway.

In the event that we can get WOTC/Steam to accept mod's or Custom cards, then the work done here and what we learn will benefit everyone, and greatly extend the life of the game.

We do not condone Cheating in any way.
We do not condone takeing any custom card online (As I posted over at Steam)
We do not condone the possible loss of money to WOTC/Stainless by making better than what they plan for expansions.

We are coding Nothing that will allow Online play like what was done with the Microprose game.

We do understand your concern, and can not speak for the millions of others out there, but here, we want to protect the interest of those who have paid and supported the game. If that means learning, and giving players lots more cards and options, then we will do so, and make it so that it is available to everyone as what was done with the Microprose version.

Have fun.

[cheatsneverprosper]

People will always try to find ways around steam checks and vac, happened before in another well known game on how to circumvent something.

You say you don't play the game much, that tells me you don't fully understand the full ramifications of what editing the game does to the multiplayer community, it means people lose trust in who they're playing, there will always be questions as to wether your opponent won fairly or had a cheat deck.

AFAIK, steam only checks .exe's? The exe isn't modified for custom?

Whilst it may well be more fun for veteran MTG/MTGO players to play with cards they love, then that is what those platforms are for, DOTP imo isn't meant for hardcore MTG/MTGO players because of the limitations that are in the game. It is for the more casual player who just wants an equal footing with other players without having to resort to things like deck building.

Lets look at the stats for the players playing DOTP. Peak today on steam is 1750, how many of those do you think have custom decks? Less than 100% for sure. Not everyone spends their life on forums scouring for cheats, nor should they. Condone cheating all you like, I find it a little distasteful and disgraceful when this edit is then offered, almost laughable but very sad.

Even though you say the coding changes nothing for online play, can you guarantee noone will find a way to get custom decks online?

[Uresti]

i dont mean to be rude but....

DOTP imo isn't meant for hardcore MTG/MTGO players because of the limitations that are in the game

thats the goal of a mod to extend the limitations.

Condone cheating all you like, I find it a little distasteful and disgraceful when this edit is then offered, almost laughable but very sad.

A lot of people think the same as you and others dont. thats why mods discussion ends always the same way. If you like it take it if you dont like it...dont take it.

[omnix32]

If and only if a mod team is put together, the playing field would be even for everyone. Those wanting to use stock decks would be able to do so without fear of someone with black lotus and mox's.

What we are doing here is good, and offsets those who wish to exploit and cheat others.

It's just a simple matter of changing casting cost to cheat. I don't think there is server code yet to dectect this. You can't group those that want to make the game better with those that will always try to find ways to cheat others. It's two different things, and we certainly are not the only ones that have knowledge to do this. It's that we are upfront, and let everyone know what is going on, and being tested. That is good, not bad.

We also make everyone aware as this Link is posted on Steam more than once, what is possible, and what to look for. Cheaters stay underground, and don't want anyone to have their information.
great post Uresti.

have fun.

[cheatsneverprosper]

i dont mean to be rude but....

DOTP imo isn't meant for hardcore MTG/MTGO players because of the limitations that are in the game

thats the goal of a mod to extend the limitations.

Condone cheating all you like, I find it a little distasteful and disgraceful when this edit is then offered, almost laughable but very sad.

A lot of people think the same as you and others dont. thats why mods discussion ends always the same way. If you like it take it if you dont like it...dont take it.

You're quite right, the goal of a mod is to extend/change things in a game. But that all depends on the game, take battlefield 2 as an example, there are a few good mods for it, different game modes, different vehicles, different rules etc etc. Thing is, when we as multiplayers go into these BF2 mods, we know the other person has the same game/mod and so all is equal.

The problem with modding this game is that the other person could have a custom deck built by this cheat method, now how is that fair for the other player who either chooses not to cheat or don't know about this cheat.

Yes a lot of people think like me, good job too. What tends to happen in forums is that there is this thing called the noisy minority and the silent majority, I dare say others will post in favour of modding, in your mind this will justify your cheat edit.

In my previous post I asked if you could guarantee noone will bring this cheat online, you didn't answer. If you can't guarantee it then don't make it.

It's clear you don't give a dam because you don't play it much, well I give a dam because I enjoy it and play by the rules. Any such mods that might effect online play will get reported. Have a nice day.

[Uresti]

From Wikipedia:
Cheating is an act of lying, deception, fraud, trickery, imposture, or imposition. Cheating characteristically is employed to create an unfair advantage, usually in one's own interest, and often at the expense of others,[1] Cheating implies the breaking of rules

Mod from Wikipedia (extracts)

Games running on a PC are often designed with change in mind..... These mods can add extra replay value and interest. The Internet provides an inexpensive medium to promote and distribute mods, and they have become an increasingly important factor in the commercial success of some games.
Mods can significantly outshine and/or continue the success of the original game even when it is dated. Playing a mod might even become more common than playing the unmodified original.
well I give a dam because I enjoy it and play by the rules.....

As you give a dam cuz you like to play by the rules, I invite you to try a MOD, they have cards that fulfill MTG RULES, and there is no creature with 99/99 have trample and can be played paying Thats for sure is CHEATING. PERIOD

[Huggybaby]

Like they taught you in elementary school, when you cheat, you only cheat yourself. I personally would not feel any satisfaction racking up wins by cheating as without a level playing field my wins would be meaningless.

I haven't modded my game at all. I probably won't. But if I did, it would be to play interesting games against the AI. I don't have time to match up with rude strangers on the internet.

Then you wonder why it can take a long time to get a game, is it any wonder when you have people posting stuff on how to edit stuff.

Are you serious?

Even though you say the coding changes nothing for online play, can you guarantee noone will find a way to get custom decks online?

That's not our job, that is the job or Stainless Games or Steam or whoever else. It would be ridiculously easy to stop cheating. You could compare played cards against a known good list for example. The fact that they have such gaping security holes now is not our fault. Neither is it our problem. I'm quite sure they will close these holes in the future.

Do you seriously think that someone who has a custom deck isn't going to take it online? You must be living in fairy land if you think people won't take them online.

You should report that person then.

People will always try to find ways around steam checks and vac, happened before in another well known game on how to circumvent something.

That's correct, and they would do so whether we were here or not.

Any such mods that might effect online play will get reported.

Please do. We don't condone cheating, and that's how the developers will improve their game. Maybe you can report the lack of online coop too.

DOTP imo isn't meant for hardcore MTG/MTGO players because of the limitations that are in the game. It is for the more casual player who just wants an equal footing with other players without having to resort to things like deck building.

I'm really tired of reading that over at Steam. DOTP is a game. Games are meant for fun. I don't care whether someone is a casual player or not. Did you know that tiddlywinks has a world championship? A game is serious when you take it seriously.

These modifications are not about cheating, they are about extending the game. We are not the only forum having this discussion.

If you don't like cheating, don't cheat. If you think you've been cheated, report the cheater.

This forum was set up as a place of freedom, as a safe haven for knowledge. This is a forum full of programmers, tinkerers and curious people interested in the way things work. As such, we will continue to program, tinker, and investigate. Please don't expect otherwise.

[cheatsneverprosper]

Explain how it's fair that someone has a custom deck by editing files in DOTP vs someone who isn't technically minded at changing files and has to use the standard decks. You can't justify it, exactly why the original posts were removed, if you half the players on custom cheat decks and the others on normal decks then you create unballance.

I'm sure you're very very clever at editing a txt file in notepad and excell, if you're so clever at programming then program a MTG game from scratch.

It would be nice if there were mods for multiplayer but only if there was an option ingame to allow mods, that way both players have custom cards and there's no issue then. But as it is now, for the sake of fairness, you simply can't have a game where one player has their cheat/hack deck and the other has standard. It's a hack, it's a cheat and if you can't see that then I feel sorry for you.

[Huggybaby]

Explain how it's fair that someone has a custom deck by editing files in DOTP vs someone who isn't technically minded at changing files and has to use the standard decks.

It's not fair.

You can't justify it,

I didn't try to justify it.

exactly why the original posts were removed,

I have removed no posts from this forum.

I'm sure you're very very clever at editing a txt file in notepad and excell,

I'm pretty good at editing text files, I never learned Excel that well.

if you're so clever at programming

I'm not and never said I was.

then program a MTG game from scratch.

I don't need to.

It would be nice if there were mods for multiplayer but only if there was an option ingame to allow mods, that way both players have custom cards and there's no issue then.

That would be nice, why don't you suggest that to the developers (the ones who are getting paid)?

But as it is now, for the sake of fairness, you simply can't have a game where one player has their cheat/hack deck and the other has standard.

Agreed. Why don't you tell the developers (the ones who are getting paid)?

It's a hack, it's a cheat

True, nobody has argued that. Why do you keep acting like they have?

and if you can't see that then I feel sorry for you.

I don't need your sympathy boy.

[MageKing17]

cheatsneverprosper, it's obvious you really have no idea how multiplayer games work. I've never played DOTP myself, but unlike Huggybaby, I am a programmer, and I can tell you that preventing online cheating is rather trivial, depending on the game. The most important thing to do is make sure that no player can force the other to run custom content, which is insanely easy. Valve has lots of experience with it, too. Unless your engine is riddled with security flaws, preventing cheating is as simple as basic data security. You may have heard of "aimbots" or similar client-side cheating techniques; such things simply do not work in a card game. Unless your engine is naive enough send the information on which cards you're holding to your opponent (and you do not need to: read up on mental poker, which describes how to shuffle a deck and draw cards without either side really trusting the other), each player can only ever access publicly available information, which prevents any possibility of cheating to determine the role of cards you shouldn't be able to see. Granted, Incantus (the project I work on) doesn't use this method (yet), but we're not terribly worried about cheaters at the moment; we're more worried about making the best engine we can, rather than making sure people can't cheat with it. DOTP is a commercial game, however, so I highly doubt they'd let gaping security flaws stand.

If you don't want to read that wall of text, just understand this: you're complaining about things you really don't understand. If you see cheating, report it; don't blame modders for things totally outside their control (and responsibility).

[AltTab]

That was too long and didn't read it all but what did 'we' exactly ruin? There's plenty more people you can parade your opinions to, why not try the something awful forums next they have a topic with posts on modding the DotP game. Anonym to forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3312789&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

Really the people here are much nicer than those at SomethingAweful and if we don't "ruin it" someone else will, its like a internet rule, "This is why we can't have nice things".

[-Azul-]

Yeah, this program is a really awesome idea. I was waiting for the day that it was going to get ported to PC. PC gaming breathes life into old, stale programs through mods. If I wanted to play it exactly as WOTC wanted it I would buy the XBOX version where no modding can be done.

I don't even necessarily care about 'custom' cards. I would just like the ability to make a deck where the computer doesn't add 30+ lands to it. I'd like to play with the whole deck unlocked but where you can only substitute in legitimate cards from the game... like putting a Tidehollow Strix in a different deck than Tezzeret's, etc.

At the very least I would like to be able to get rid of cards like vanilla bears and replace them with cards that actually have an ability for the same casting cost.

[otherright]

A hinge of the success of every PC game is modability. That is why developers release toolsets with their games. It is, in essence, a form of flattery. People customize games, because of their adoration for that game.

NWN, Oblivion, Half-Life are all iconic games that lived far beyond their years because of community support through modding.

If WotC thought that this game would not be modded by its fans, then they were being incredibly short sighted. Fans will always pick apart the code and modify the games they love, toolset or not.

I, for one, have both expansions for the Xbox and eagerly awaited this for PC, because I knew it wouldn't take long for more cards to start popping up.

As far as playing on-line, I probably won't. I do, however, plan to collect every custom DLC created for this game and fully support the modders works.

[Yanna]

A hinge of the success of every PC game is modability. That is why developers release toolsets with their games. It is, in essence, a form of flattery. People customize games, because of their adoration for that game.

NWN, Oblivion, Half-Life are all iconic games that lived far beyond their years because of community support through modding.

If WotC thought that this game would not be modded by its fans, then they were being incredibly short sighted. Fans will always pick apart the code and modify the games they love, toolset or not.

I, for one, have both expansions for the Xbox and eagerly awaited this for PC, because I knew it wouldn't take long for more cards to start popping up.

As far as playing on-line, I probably won't. I do, however, plan to collect every custom DLC created for this game and fully support the modders works.

Applause

And as long as people support modding we'll release mods. That's the essence, the quintessence of it.

I started playing since 'revised' edition came out, and that's quite a long time. MTG is a diamond, but its main flaw is the 'insert coin' value attached to it.
Tried MTGO, was nice, but again a money vortex...
It's shouldn't be about money. It's the game that's a jewel. What about if you could get (almost) any card for free and play it for fun ?

That's what we're doing here.

YannA a.k.a NOVA

PS : NWN and Oblivion belongs to my classic-worshipped games