You guys need to do a stupidity check

[captain video]

Seriously. I am all for modding in general, and the collective work done on stand-alone play servers and deck builders discussed on this site, and especially the work done to generate the Manalink ISO, is truly impressive. But...

DotP/Steam is an official Wizards product, and hacking that is like trying to hack MtG:Online, it is doomed to failure, and will eventually bring down the wrath of the gods (e.g. people will get their Steam IDs banned, and lose not only the use of DotP, but all other Steam-purchased software). The only reason they aren't cracking down harder on you immediately is that the presence of hacked client files isn't their biggest problem right now; the console port is itself very buggy (read the Steam forum to see how bad it is), and they are struggling to get major issues patched. Once the dust settles from that, they will be coming your way, mark my words.

DotP is client-server, and all adjudication of deck legality is on the server side. You can add all the new card logic you want on the client side, the server will still ignore your work. The only thing of significance I've seen discovered here is the existence of an exploit to force-unlock all official cards in the game. This is something you're either supposed to "win" by progressing through the challenges, or by paying Steam for fast unlocks. It's a cheat, but no one is going to lose sleep over it, and it sounds like they may have already patched it out. Steam keeps your unlock history in the cloud anyway, and if there is a client-server mismatch, they can just wipe the client files and force you to start over. Again, this is probably not being enforced just yet since they have bigger bugs to worry about.

DotP isn't supposed to be a full-fledged implementation of MtG. It is a "quest" game using MtG dueling with the specific intent of introducing basic game mechanics to new players who might otherwise be intimidated by the complexities of the full game. It purposefully restricts itself to the M10 starter decks plus a set of additional pre-constructed decks designed for the quest game. Open play using the starter decks and the additional quest game cards/decks you have "won" is implemented, but there is no deck builder, also on purpose, to keep things simple. The card selection is also designed to keep things simple. If you want to play with any other cards, and/or if you want to build your own decks, Wizards expects you to either (a) go to MtG:Online, or (b) find play-aids here. For obvious reasons they prefer (a), but they continue to tolerate (b), as long as idiots don't try to hack their servers...

Please let DotP serve its intended purpose, to help draw new players into the MtG world. Some of them will migrate to MtG:O, others will eventually come here instead. Isn't that what you would rather see happen? Anything that disrupts their server will ultimately cause new players to quit in frustration, and then everyone loses. Yes, the interface looks spiffy, and yes it would be cool to use it in place of the existing options, and "maybe" Wizards will migrate MtG:O 4.0 to it, but you can just as easily mod the other UIs people are using now to more closely approximate what DoTP looks like. And if you really really need to have that deck builder with all the latest official complete sets to play with >NOW<, I suggest you browse elsewhere in these forums, you'll be pleasantly surprised at what you'll find.

One other thing. DotP/Steam has a ranking system, it mirrors the one used on Xbox Live. Both new and experienced players are using DotP and care about the rankings. Considerable effort has been made to devise a match-making system within open play to help players find others near their own strength, at least when using the fixed card sets available. Many of the players care more about the ranking system than any other part of the game. Hacking client files to influence your deck status can be viewed as a major cheat intended to break the rankings, and a lot of players will be seriously pissed when they find out that's happening. Steam's anti-cheat software isn't designed to trap something like that (yet). It's a good way to make a lot of enemies in the MtG community.

[Yanna]

I'm not going to say hi to somebody popping up on a forum, writing his first post implying that we're stupid. Rudeness meets rudeness i guess (and i bet you don't care).

You seem a bit confused about what's behind those Dotp editing forums, and althought it has been stated on other posts it may be good to rewrite it.

This is my point of view, but i think other modders share the same view :
- I play the game online from time to time, and absolutely condemn the use of any modified content while doing so. Believe it or not, when i play online i'm using unmodified steam game files.
- Those edited contents are meant to be a 'solo' mod that you can play against AI. There's no rankings involved and no other people to offense in such a way.
- Using modified content online will not only be 'skipped' by server checks, it could turn into a Steam ban. We can't take responsibility for the decision of someone using modded content.

We're modders, not cheaters nor hackers. We're not messing with some other player's cards or fun, and not using this knowledge to give us some edge in a game.
There's a thing you should ask yourself about online hacking : You seriously think that people will stop trying to find exploits if modding is forbidden ?
If you've read steam forums you should have already heard about rank-screwing disconnects or gang-teaming. Perhaps maybe you have experienced it yourself. Let me tell you this : Other people have found ways to screw online game before we ever heard about the possibility of editing.
They just want to use cheats or exploits to win, and sadly it's someting that's common about online games.
Don't confuse us with hackers or cheaters : we're modders.

Something seems to be paradoxal about your view on modding. You first state that you're all for it in your first sentence, then write that :
- the game was meant to be simple and 'noob friendly' (not pejorative). It's on purpose.
- there is no deck builder, it's on purpose.
- if you want to play with other cards you have to move to another game. It's on purpose.
It's all on purpose so we 'shouldn't' change it. What would have happened to half life if people didn't want to change multiplayer-mode to some objective-based action with alternate weapons ? Counter Strike wouldn't have been created, and i can guarantee you that modding has been a blessing for Valve to keep players interested in their game.

I've received PM's from people stating that our mods were the only thing that kept DoTP alive for them. And long-time players (me included, started on revised edition) just want to play the game whithout having to pay hundreds of dollars to stay competitive (heck i don't even care about being competitive !).
MTG:O unfortunately has the same drawback as paper magic : it's expensive. But if people want to go play it no problem, for my part this commercial abuse is done for me.

[Uresti]

Generally i try to be polite but given the title of this thread, not this day and without the intention to "hang false medals on my chest" or whatever that means in your country/language...
I started this forum (Thanks to Admins/Moderators) when i saw how others Forums had locked/deleted anything related to DOPT editing
I made the first complete public mod (Thanks to the creators of the tools) and posted here and there, so others people know that DOTP can be extended beyond the limitations that on purpose have the game.
I made the first tutorials so people can "easily" make they favorite cards.
I have a vague idea on how Steam/Vac works and how that cant affect (for now) on editing DOTP (did you know DOTP server just handle PLAYERS/LANGUAGE/REGION/STARTGAME/ENDGAME???)
I care for business profit but i dont condemn the way that some companies implement to legally steal money from your pockets (LOL! Sill love you WOTC!...mmhh thinking of that maybe i just could have a house on the bahamas instead of those paperboard useless epensive cards...)

And if for all of those poins im a stupid... YES i am a happy STUPID!

[kevlahnota]

What is stupidity first? Stupidity is a lack of intelligence, understanding, reason, wit, or sense.

Modding takes a lot of passion and intelligence, reason and also common sense.

If anyone who does use it on illegal purpose then that's what you called stupid.

[captain video]

There is a reason other Magic-related forums have banned DotP modding/hacking discussions from their respective sites. If the Admins of this forum stopped to think for just a moment, they would do the same.

The difference between modding and hacking is that you don't get to decide when modding is allowed, the game designer does. Valve owns the Half-Life franchise, and they gave modding their blessing, including providing their own editing tools. Valve doesn't own DotP, Wizards does. Wizards has forbidden modding the game. It's their property, their rules, their choice. That means in this case, you're not modding, you're hacking. You can disclaim all you want about how you don't intend to facilitate cheating, but those intentions are irrelevant. The fact is you ARE facilitating cheating, and in the very near future Wizards WILL retaliate unless you stop.

The argument that MtG:O is expensive or a rip-off is old news. There are numerous other options to play that cost nothing (unless you're considerate enough to make donations to support the programming and private server operation), much of which is linked on this forum. I have no sympathy for that argument. I play on MtG:O occasionally, and spend $0 to do so. The paupers league and singleton play are both very active there, and commons are easy to come by. If you want to build tournament-level decks using some of the exotic rares, then yes, it will cost you a little, and more if you want to play in sealed-deck or draft tournaments. That part of the MtG community is entirely voluntary. Wizards is a business, and if people want to pay to collect full sets and play in those tournaments, it's not your place to say they shouldn't. There are already plenty of alternatives for people who complain about the cost. If I was one of the developers who had contributed a few years worth of sweat and blood to create some of those alternatives for you, I would be feeling a little disrespected reading your posts.

Returning to the technical side of this, you have no clue how the DotP server works. Your assumption that changing your decks in the "quest" game only affects solo play and can't possibly affect other players is false. The server is tracking each player's progress in the game for the purpose of recording achievements. Those achievements are stored in a server database in the cloud, and that database is repeatedly being corrupted. Some of this is due to bugs in the console part which have not yet been tracked down and fixed by the official developers. Instead, they are spinning their wheels chasing down other problems with the cloud database which aren't actually due to server bugs at all, they're being caused by the use of hacked player decks. Arguably it is a coding failure in the server which makes the modding exploit possible to begin with, but as I said in my previous post, right now they have more immediate issues to worry about.

DotP is not a game you can play completely offline. It was not designed, nor is it programmed, to be a general-purpose MtG duel adjudicator. You have no hope of trying to make it become one. The only thing you will accomplish in the long run is to get the forum Admins in some serious hot water with Wizards.

[Uresti]

As Huggybaby said in another similar post, if you have complains or suggestions, write to developers, they are paid for they work, we dont get a single coin for modding/hacking (whatever your point of view is which really i dont care). We Mod if you like it take it, if not leave it.
for more explains about modding/hacking definitions and complains see:
http://www.slightlymagic.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=2807

[otherright]

I don't even know if I want to touch this one. You guys know how I feel about what you are doing and how much I support it. OK, I guess I will... a little.

I don't recall a single post in this forum regarding the hacking of Steam servers. I do recall, however, on more than one occasion reference to not using these mods online. If they are modding the game, and not using it online, then there really isn't anything Steam could do about it; morally or legally.

As you have claimed to have surfed this forum, then you must know the support I have for modding, and the support I give these guys (see You Ruined it).

It may not have been intended to be a full single player game, but that is the intent of these modders. Could we use Wagic? Of course, and they probably do, I do. But that isn't the point of what these guys are doing. I like the interface of this game better. If they reach the level of availability that Wagic has, I'd probably quit using it altogether.

As far as the use of the Secret button to unlock cards. They have to use it to unlock their decks. If this ranking system works as good as implied, they won't run across new players with their unlocked cards anyway if using the legit set.
And if they do, who gives a shit. If the game is that well balanced someone having a couple extra Bramblewood Armors isn't going to mess up the match as its balanced by lesser chance to draw it.

Just as you, I hope they are monitoring this forum, and if they aren't make sure they pay you in cheese when you tell them. If they are, then they might actually see what it is the gamers want from them and may be more likely to act on it.

So, sit back, relax, try one of these mods and enjoy it. Stop taking names for the teacher, and you may actually have some fun for a change.

[otherright]

There is a reason other Magic-related forums have banned DotP modding/hacking discussions from their respective sites. If the Admins of this forum stopped to think for just a moment, they would do the same.

It really wouldn't matter, they'd put it somewhere else.

It's their property, their rules, their choice.

It may be, but its their money that was spent on this game. It don't think you're going to win any arguments here using that logic; DMCA or no. That's one of the oddest things about the rules of property ownership. When a person purchases something, even a license, they still believe they are entitled to do what they want with it, and they often do.

You can disclaim all you want about how you don't intend to facilitate cheating, but those intentions are irrelevant. The fact is you ARE facilitating cheating, and in the very near future Wizards WILL retaliate unless you stop.

The facilitation of cheating is what is irrelevant. I don't even play the PC version online. I play the 360 version online. Why, I choose not to cheat and I don't want to remove my mods. That is my choice. If you stand on the grounds that someone may misuse something as facilitation, then your life must be very boring. There is potential misuse of nearly everything. Some people use anhydrous for making meth, I use it for flash freezing. Am I facilitating drug use? That is precisely the premise of your argument.

The idea that Wizards WILL retaliate. Well that scares the shit out of me. Are they coming to my house to remove my mods? Are they going to make me quit playing D&D also?

The argument that MtG:O is expensive or a rip-off is old news. There are numerous other options to play that cost nothing (unless you're considerate enough to make donations to support the programming and private server operation), much of which is linked on this forum. I have no sympathy for that argument.

What about the argument the MtG:O sucks to begin with? Had we wanted to play it, we'd be playing it.

There are already plenty of alternatives for people who complain about the cost.

Yes, and this is one of them. Thank you for the recognition.

If I was one of the developers who had contributed a few years worth of sweat and blood to create some of those alternatives for you, I would be feeling a little disrespected reading your posts.

You can't please all the people all of the time. Here then, I'll give some love. I'm sorry I didn't like MtG:Online. I'm sorry I didn't like your alternatives. I know you worked hard on them, but I just didn't like it. Don't take it personal. If you had anything to do with DotP, I really enjoy the interface, but you slipped up again limiting the cards available. You'll get it right someday. Hang in there, I know you can do it. Peace be with you, Otherright.

Those achievements are stored in a server database in the cloud, and that database is repeatedly being corrupted. Some of this is due to bugs in the console part which have not yet been tracked down and fixed by the official developers. Instead, they are spinning their wheels chasing down other problems with the cloud database which aren't actually due to server bugs at all, they're being caused by the use of hacked player decks. Arguably it is a coding failure in the server which makes the modding exploit possible to begin with, but as I said in my previous post, right now they have more immediate issues to worry about.

Well now... see, according to what you're saying now, it doesn't work properly anyway. So what's the issue?

DotP is not a game you can play completely offline. It was not designed, nor is it programmed, to be a general-purpose MtG duel adjudicator. You have no hope of trying to make it become one. The only thing you will accomplish in the long run is to get the forum Admins in some serious hot water with Wizards.

Yes it is. I play it completely offline. I have not once played an online match using the PC version. It may not be designed to be, but that's what these guys are turning it into. They have no hope? They've already done it.

[otherright]

Seriously. I am all for modding in general, and the collective work done on stand-alone play servers and deck builders discussed on this site, and especially the work done to generate the Manalink ISO, is truly impressive. But...

But... let me stop you there. If you're all for modding, what's your problem unless you (a work for WotC, or (b you are jealous of these guys' talents. If that's the case, hey, I can't write cards either. I'm glad someone's doing it for me.

DotP/Steam is an official Wizards product, and hacking that is like trying to hack MtG:Online, it is doomed to failure, and will eventually bring down the wrath of the gods (e.g. people will get their Steam IDs banned, and lose not only the use of DotP, but all other Steam-purchased software).

Its not doomed to failure, it already works. If they don't play the mods online, how will they know they're there?
My Steam ID banned? Wrath of the gods? Well, if you are done with your idolical heresy... then, Oh gosh. Well, the only other Steam game I play is Torchlight, and I've modded the heck out it also... even written a couple myself. Oh, that's right, I don't play it online anyway.

Once the dust settles from that, they will be coming your way, mark my words.

What is wrong with you man? You have deified these people. Metaphorical apocalyptic references, seriously? The omnipotent presence you've lent these people is false. I assure you, they are human beings, just as you and I.

DotP is client-server, and all adjudication of deck legality is on the server side. You can add all the new card logic you want on the client side, the server will still ignore your work.

If it will ignore it, what's the problem in modding it?

The only thing of significance I've seen discovered here is the existence of an exploit to force-unlock all official cards in the game. This is something you're either supposed to "win" by progressing through the challenges, or by paying Steam for fast unlocks. It's a cheat, but no one is going to lose sleep over it, and it sounds like they may have already patched it out. Steam keeps your unlock history in the cloud anyway, and if there is a client-server mismatch, they can just wipe the client files and force you to start over.

Oh, I get it. Its about money then. Well, to unlock the secret menu requires a toggling on/off, which means that secret menu is already there. Again, if they can reset it, what's the problem?

DotP isn't supposed to be a full-fledged implementation of MtG. It is a "quest" game using MtG dueling with the specific intent of introducing basic game mechanics to new players who might otherwise be intimidated by the complexities of the full game.

They know this, that is why they are making cards for it. Well, then, when the players get more accustomed to the game, they will be happy to know that mods are available to them.

If you want to play with any other cards, and/or if you want to build your own decks, Wizards expects you to either (a) go to MtG:Online, or (b) find play-aids here. For obvious reasons they prefer (a), but they continue to tolerate (b), as long as idiots don't try to hack their servers...

Why use something else to build my decks, this works fine. So does Wagic. Alright, which one of you "idiots" hacked Steam's server?

I suggest you browse elsewhere in these forums, you'll be pleasantly surprised at what you'll find.

And there it is. You've got to work for Steam then or the DotP project. You advocate the existence of Wagic, Magma, Manalink and the like, but don't advocate the existence of mods for this game. That is incredibly hypocritical; advocating unlicensed programs. They take players away from the game also. What are you personally losing in there being mods for this? There has to be something for you to know so much about its structure and despise so greatly what these guys are doing.

It's a good way to make a lot of enemies in the MtG community.

Its a better way to make friends. I'm pretty sure a lot of these guys didn't know each other beforehand. Now they do. And I'm jusr sure every single person that has this game and knows these mods exist, just hates what these guys are doing. I'm sure they lose sleep at night wondering if their rankings in DotP are being messed with. Well, they could go play MtG:O of which you are so fond.

[Uresti]

The idea that Wizards WILL retaliate. Well that scares the shit out of me. Are they coming to my house to remove my mods? Are they going to make me quit playing D&D also?

LOL

[otherright]

You guys know me, when someone jumps in here and insults you, I'm always there. Keep up the good work, and hurry up and get the rest of the cards done before Captain Video's deities show up with the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.

[Uresti]

Oh no!! he will exile al my mods and make me discard my changes??

[kevlahnota]

Oh no!! he will exile al my mods and make me discard my changes??

LOL

[captain video]

Some predictable responses, and a few cut-and-paste quotes from my earlier posts out of context. So I'll amplify.

First, for the record: I do not work for WotC, but I know people who do. I do not work for Valve/Steam, but I know people who do. Guess where I live. I have programmed very large enterprise-scale systems, modders do not make me feel inferior. I have already said I am very impressed by the quality of modding work described elsewhere in these forums.

Retaliation: What will eventually happen is that WotC will put pressure on Steam to ban some IDs. They (probably) won't be anyone who is posting in these forums. They will be people who have read these forums, copied the mods, and are using them to play online. My primary objective in the original post was to warn those people of the risk. You guys belittle the risk, which in the spirit of free speech is your right. I have played DotP some online, and I have followed the Steam forums, and there are people out there trying to use the modded decks in Steam play, and there are other players complaining about it. That's where the big problem is. The banned players will point the finger back at this site. The Steam network admins will have a nice little chat with your site's ISP, or perhaps whoever gateways your site's ISP to the US backbone, and then out of the blue your forum users' connection rate goes all to h*. It's been done before, and it's very effective. You may not grasp the concept, but I suspect the head forum admin(s) will.

Offline play: You may think you are completely detached from the Steam servers, but you're not. At intervals the client .exe will attempt Steam reconnection and will either patch itself once connected, or shut itself off otherwise. There go all your mods. Do you think you can hack Steam's security system? Many have tried, and with many other game clients, but it hasn't been cracked yet. If that's part of your to-do list, all I can say is good luck with that. If that's NOT part of your to-do list, re-read the title of my original post.

I honestly do not know how much time you have before the .exe shuts off, since it has many major bugs resulting from the poor quality of the console port, and some customers are already demanding (and sometimes getting) refunds.

MtG Online: It's far from perfect. Some players refuse to touch it, even in its free-to-play modes. I get that. Modders have the dream goal of a fully-functional and fully free-to-play clone of MtG:O with a much better-looking UI, I get that. Everquest modders built a viable clone server, and it was quite an achievement; it only took about 30 person-years of full-time development effort to get there (their team's estimate, not mine). And it's still only a small fraction of the current EQ world. I'm honestly not trying to belittle your goal, or even talk you out of it, but I am suggesting you don't yet have an inkling of how much work it takes. My personal recommendation is that if you want to use someone else's code as a starting point, you pick something open-source, not something like a protected .exe which you don't understand how it was designed to work and which ultimately won't fit your needs anyway. Open-source exists for a reason. But don't listen to me, you know the modding culture much better than I do.

In any event, I observe that modding activity for the DotP client has already slowed to a crawl, I suspect because people have figured out there aren't that many additional cards you can add without a rebuild of the .exe, and that isn't forthcoming.

[Yanna]

Regarding 'retaliation', it's true people try to play modded decks online and it makes to game go out of sync. Not only can't be modded decks (from our mods or other sources) played online but they also disrupt
to some extend online play. This part i agree with you.
Maybe what we lack is a 'disclaimer' stating that those mods shouldn't be brought online. But that will not prevent people to do so.
As a matter of fact if any admin on this forum asks to stop modding Dotp for whatever reason, i'll stop it. But for now it seems that they're fine with it and support it.

The part i'm disagreeing with you is the statement that the 'big problem' of Dotp is users trying to play modded decks online.
I'm probably reading every single forum that talks about Dotp, including steam, SA and heck, even Wotc's official forum.

Dotp has many many problems actually, just to state some :
- There's a way to abuse the ranking system by a disconnect trick. People complain about it.
- This ranking system appears to be glitched (as opposed to Xbox's use of TrueSkill) and people complain about it.
- Game bugs while playing online (activated abilities not triggering, network lag spiking some phases in oblivion). People complain about it.
- False adverstising regarding online coop (non existent) or offline coop (gamepad pre-requisite not advertised). MANY people complain about it.
- Online match up system being poor for some people (can't host or join games, disconnections). People you would surely call 'non-hackers'. People complain about it.
- Cards and deck unlocks 'vanishing' suddenly, bringing the players to desperation. People complain about it.

None of these is caused by our mods, it's how the game was designed/ported.

Adding to the injury, is the insult of being totally ignored by stainless or Wotc representatives. I've seen games falling into oblivion for such a behaviour in very little time.
So yeah as you come warning (should have said threatening ?) people about bans and forums retaliation, i'd like to respond by my own warning to Wotc/stainless :

You're already feeding much dissaproval for Dotp's actual state, and banning 'solo-modding' is not going to fix people's major concerns about the game.
On the opposite, is seems that some people are less angered/turned away from Dotp as they have some new content and see that at least MODDERS take care about the game.

To conclude, you may not have noticed the pace of Dotp modding since you didn't try the community DLC.
I can garantee you that Dotp modding is far from slowing down, it's even going better and faster than before.
Major coding breakthroughts have been made, things you thought were impossible with the current client :
- Adding mana generating cards, and mana handling.
- Complex cards such as Force of Will, Haunting Echoes, Blazing Archon, Zektar Shrine Expedition, Strip Mine.
- Some other things coming this week-end, but shhh, it's a secret