Lands with abilities

[braquio]

Hi People!!
Someone knows why the mtf auto-tap always choose lands with ablities before basic lands?

Is horrible, i can't use lands like oran-rief or treetop in a mono green, if at least i could choose a combination with ctrl.., but no, always take non basic first.

I see the activate abilities in lands like treetop to disable mana production, is a solution, but i was searching something like give SCORE, a HINT, or whatever you dont have to activate to say the game that always choose that lands as the last.

I'm revising Manual Mana Functions by Riiak Shi Nal, cause with his lands the game always choose Mana Tokens before lands to play spells, but i cant find how he did it. Someone knows it?

[sweetLu]

See if this post helps. Riiak explains it better than I could

viewtopic.php?p=132994#p132994

[braquio]

Thanks, i think i read this post before but i didnt remember.
Its crazy!!

But im not sure works like that, cause in the case of a mono green,
I played 1st oran-rief, 2cd turn a forest and try to play a creature cost G and only let me choose oran instead forest that come in after.
Next turn play another forest and try to play anything always choose oran + forest u need.
May be choose first cards with MANA ABILTY block then basic lands, im not sure.

[braquio]

I make a test and effectively game check first objects with MANA ABILTY blocks, then basic lands.
First highlight the last MANA ABILTY (like Mana Tokens), then when no more MANA ABILTies highlight for last basic land.

And i tried with a MANA ABILITY on a basic Forest and then the highlight is correct, taking the last land enter in the battlefield, but to consider the mana available check the forest 2 times, 1 time for the MANA ABILITY and 1 time for basic land, so let me play more expensive spells, and when i do it if u dont really have enough lands to play it the spells is resolved at free cost, like the Urborg fail.

In fact this is the same fail that the Urborg, cuase in the Urborg check for swamps and check for the other type it was.

So the basic lands cant have more than one type or a MANA ABILITY.

[RiiakShiNal]

We found out very early on that we couldn't give basic lands MANA_ABILITYs or additional basic land types if we wanted them to work correctly. This is exactly why Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is impossible to properly code (because it breaks basic lands).

I actually did tests with basic lands and MANA_ABILITYs which is how I came up with the information that I used for that post. I tried different placement orders, different draws, different deck order ids and that was I how saw the game engine worked (at least at that time). It is possible they changed how the engine picks auto-tap sources to tap, but at the time it treated cards with MANA_ABILITYs and basic land exactly the same. It would even choose a basic land I had just placed over a mana token that had been produced before I played the new basic land.

Problems like this are why it is always best to use a manual tapping method and make the player choose and tap mana sources to use cast a spell or use an ability.

As for revising my Manual Mana, I don't think I've missed anything, but as long as you label yours differently (so people don't come to me for support for your version) I don't see any problem with it. If you can improve it then all the better.

[braquio]

We found out very early on that we couldn't give basic lands MANA_ABILITYs or additional basic land types if we wanted them to work correctly. This is exactly why Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is impossible to properly code (because it breaks basic lands).

I actually did tests with basic lands and MANA_ABILITYs which is how I came up with the information that I used for that post. I tried different placement orders, different draws, different deck order ids and that was I how saw the game engine worked (at least at that time). It is possible they changed how the engine picks auto-tap sources to tap, but at the time it treated cards with MANA_ABILITYs and basic land exactly the same. It would even choose a basic land I had just placed over a mana token that had been produced before I played the new basic land.

Problems like this are why it is always best to use a manual tapping method and make the player choose and tap mana sources to use cast a spell or use an ability.

As for revising my Manual Mana, I don't think I've missed anything, but as long as you label yours differently (so people don't come to me for support for your version) I don't see any problem with it. If you can improve it then all the better.

I think is impossible to do it better than you did it, i'm only revising ur functions to understand better how it works nothing more.
May be in Dotp 2015 we can do more things.

[braquio]

I did another test and i supose the engine changes the order picks auto-tap sources to tap in any update, cause now select in this order (for the same color of course):

1st lands with MANA_ABILITY (and TOKENS)
2cd basic lands
3th creatures with MANA_ABILITY

Always the latest card in each group, but dont select nothing from a group if can select 1 more card in a top group, no matter if come in later.

So now if u play in 1st turn a forest, in the scd u use it to get 1 mana token, and then play another forest, to play a cost G engine uses the token, no the last forest played.

Artifacts with MANA_ABILITY i didnt test it, but i supose goes in the 1st group like TOKENS.

[RiiakShiNal]

I did another test and i supose the engine changes the order picks auto-tap sources to tap in any update, cause now select in this order (for the same color of course):

1st lands with MANA_ABILITY
2cd basic lands
3th creatures with MANA_ABILITY

Always the latest card in each group, but dont select nothing from a group if can select 1 more card in a top group, no matter if come in later.

So now if u play in 1st turn a forest, in the scd u use it to get 1 mana token, and then play another forest, to play a cost G engine uses the token, no the last forest played.

Artifacts with MANA_ABILITY i didnt test it.

Then it is quite possible that it changed in one of the updates to the game, because my tests were done early on.

[braquio]

Another test
It's curious but with windbrisk heights dont happens, engine treat it like a basic land, or may be only wants make me crazy
So now im not sure how the mtf engine choose
in my first test i used oran-rief and forests
in my scd test only forest using tokens
and in my third test windbrisk heights and plains.
Nothing strange only 1 color sources, well anyway i will use your manual functions, are more predictables