Manalink Vintage Competition (winners posted)

[Cognis]

Brandon Green Force won 3 rounds and was stopped by Affinity 1-2

My Quirion deck lost to Affinity on the first round 1-2. They are nicely matched and the only difference between winning and losing was Force of Will against Broodstar. I won when I had them and lost when I didn't.

For now it seems to me that the Affinity is the deck to beat

[scherbchen]

thanks for the challenge btw. lots of fun so far

*marks down 10 extra points for brownnosing*

[aww1979]

Phew i highly disagree with a lot of choices made during your video.

I'm taking a look at the video now to see if I can defend any of my choices or whether I screwed up :p

Game 1 - didn't see any mistakes
Game 2 - (5:34) I should likely have imprinted manamorphose on chrome mox and played tarmogoyf. I'm not sure why I didn't...
(6:22) I Tinker for a belcher; this seems correct to me, since it is turn 2 and the board is empty of threats. The only other choice besides jewelry was Memory Jar, which I don't think was needed.
-the game would have been won at least 1 turn sooner if I'd played the chrome mox with manamorphose turn 1. I think I was keeping it to cantrip for some reason, but that was clearly the weaker play.
Game 3 - (10:14) I played timetwister turn one. This gave me a three card advantage (4 if you count the mongoose as sucking) I did shuffle in a belcher (which wouldn't have been castable for at least a turn) and a bloodmoon (which would have been good against the sliver deck) so I can definitely see debate over this choice. I'm more likely to err on the side of card advantage, but I can see waiting to play blood moon the next turn and hoping it will stall long enough to use belcher.
(11:09) I played a bunch of other spells instead of Covetous Dragon. I am quite sure I made the right choice here.
(12:13) I attacked with goyf. This seems right, because I can race the AI at this point and win. I kept the Maniac in hand this turn, though I could have abused AI intelligence and played it safely, because it would have attacked with both slivers, leaving no defender to kill it unless it drew a play.
(13:15) Heh, AI sure doesn't like those Covetous Dragons. Anyway, played the maniac because at this point, the extra threat puts enough pressure on to make it worth it. AI should of course not attack next turn, but we know it will :p
Game 4 - (14:50) Given the contents of the AI deck this round, I should have opened with blood moon, putting manamorphose on chrome mox. I don't think that deck has an answer to this.
(15:19) Played the blood moon :p If I'd been smart turn 1, I'd now be playing the belcher. In any event, AI has no usable cards except mongoose in play and any FoW in hand, so it is a hard lock, and I cannot lose.
Game 5 - A recording glitch messed up a big chunk of this one, but there were no real choices to be made all game except whether to cantrip manamorphose.
Game 6 - (21:10) - might've been wise for me to mulligan this one, but I hate mulliganing :p
(22:00) - blocked with two creatures to kill the attacker. I remember agonizing over whether I should block that, and if so, which two creatures to use. I could have used tarmogoyf to trade 1:1 instead of the two weaker creatures I traded 1:2, but I think I made the right call, given that the maniac would have died attacking next turn anyway.
(22:42) Played blood moon. I had no green/blue sources after this, but I don't think it matters, because unless AI gets its moxes, it can no longer cast anything, and I had no playable cards in hand anyway. The recording glitches for a couple turns after this, but there were no tough choices after that, it was just attacking.
Game 7 - mulled to 5 cards. Unfortunate, but probably the best choice, though the recording missed the 7 card hand. I don't think it had any mana sources.
(29:10) - no real choices to make before this. Used black lotus to pump tarmo on defense
(29:20) - Recording messes up a bit again, but I played blood moon, which I think was correct, trying to eliminate any additional threats, though cutting off my green mana. The next couple turns I make plays trying to stay alive, but it is just stalling.

I definitely made some mistakes here, but I think I played the final game flawlessly, so I don't think it impacted the score. Game 2 I definitely played poorly. Game 3 was straightforward, and the only debatable play was Timetwister; given the deck I was facing, I should have dropped blood moon, though. If I was playing against an unknown deck, I think twister would have been right, though. Game 4 I should have played blood moon a turn earlier, given the AI deck.

Any other comments are welcome. I always appreciate any criticism that I can learn from; that is one reason I put the videos there :p

[scherbchen]

time to play my own deck!

game 1, green force. decent hand of trickster, sol ring, chalice, twister, jar. I eat a Might of Oaks on an Elvish Archer, draw 7, Time Walk, Twister, Fabricate a Voltaic Key after drawing into Time Vault.

game 2, Monty Muck. 2 mulligans for a less than optimal hand that at least includes two mana sources. draw into a second Island on turn two and drop Vedalken Shackles, feeling a bit better now. turn 3 Jitte off the top, hope that Cosi's Trickster lives for another turn or two. no play from the AI other than a Mox Jet and Volcanic Island x 2 so far. turn 4 Time Vault off the top to go along with that pretty useless Voltaic Key in play. cheesy? sure. I'll take it though.

game 3, yggdra BG. turn 1 I drop 2 moxes, Sol Ring, Island, Skullclamp and Fabricate a Memory Jar after mulliganing down to 6. turn 3 pops the jar, Time Walk, Phyrexian Processor for 7, another mox and Cranial Plating. make a token end of opponents turn, recycle Memory Jar with Academy Ruins just for kicks, swing with a 15/7 and make some more 7/7s and draw cards that are pretty much redundant.

game 4, kokodrilo juzam. have to Impulse for mana on turn two, drop Helm of Obedience with Academy Ruins in play on turn 3. opponent has 1 Underground Sea and a wisp. Processor two turn later when the helm gets nothing and the AI still has to discard. lucky win.

game 5, green force rematch. turn one Fabricate Phyrexian Processor. Minions smash up Elves. raargh!

game 6, warrior stompy. tinkered Sundering Titan kills his first two lands and one of mine. he then picks up a Sword of Ice and Fire and hands it off to a Lodestone Golem next turn.

game 7, nyktorian zoo. moxen and a chalice drop Shackles and Platinum Angel by turn 3. AI has 3 mana but no play, odd. Path to Exile on Angel freezes the game for some reason.

restarting gauntlet

game 7, kakodrilo juzam rematch. trickster, mox, island, Academy Ruins, Skullclamp, Lotus, Impulse. that's a keeper. Hymn to Tourach kills Platinum Angel and Academy Ruins which blows. a freshly drawn Lodestone Golem picks up the Skullclamp, Sword of Fire and Ice (Impulsed for) is waiting in the wings. Diabloic Edict draws me two cards. Scroll Rack shows some Bottle Gnomes eager to stand in the way of an angry Juzam Djinn, bearing the trusty old Skullclamp. Hymn hits my last two cards (Timetwister being one of them) but the Gnomes get me two more. facing down two Juzam though at 18 life and with a helm that got me a wisp (two cards, really) of all things. Vedalken Shackles and mucho mana to the rescue after the Juzams hit and a Hypnotic SPecter comes down! though the stolen Juzam picks up two Paralyze and that is the game.

pretty sure I could have made more of an effort there, some iffy decisions were made.

dayumn that deck is clunky if at times "mising" a lot. Helm of Obedience is so wrong in this environment.

[aww1979]

Phew i highly disagree with a lot of choices made during your video.

1)The Chrome Mox is there to be used - preferably with a Green Card.Saw it like 3 times where you kept it in your hand while you could use it to play stuff untill you don´t need the Mox anymore and imprinted a buisness Spell.Even the AI is using the Card as it is supposed to be played in the Deck.

Yeah, I definitely screwed up twice with that. I don't generally like Chrome Mox because it is card disadvantage, so I don't like to play it until I need the mana from it, but I still goofed in games 2 and 4.

2)If you have the choice to play Goblin Charbelcher or a random Creature while the board is empty,then DON`T choose the creature ^^ It is very unlickly you will ever hit 7 Mana to play and activate the Belcher in the same turn - so play it asap and activate it once or twice and most likly you will be lucky (just 8 lands in there with 4 Land Grant (to fetch Taiga) and 4 Crop Rotation (to fetch Volcanic Island).

I agree with this, and that's exactly what I did.

3)Goyf is in there to stall the ground mostly.Should be used more defensivly.This is not a pure beatdown deck that is supposed to trade damage to race. Time is on your side , eventually you will draw into a Belcher and just end it in one turn - really no need to take more damage than needed.

Yeah, I was playing it more as a weenie deck that happened to have belchers in it, since it didn't seem to have very many reliable ways of getting a belcher, other than just drawing it, or much acceleration besides chrome moxes. Apparently that isn't what you intended :p

4)If the opponent just got nonbasics out,then just play the Blood Moon.Just make sure you Imprinted something Green (Mongoose,Manamorphosis,Tattermunge Maniac,or have a Mox Emerald) to not hurt yourself more than the opponent.

Yeah, definitely. I was foolishly forgetting to use my knowledge of the AI deck contents when deciding whether or not to play Blood Moon.

5)Early Mongoose are pretty crappy and need to be fed to Chrome Mox or Chump Block something like Juggernaut.

Yeah, I tried to do that. I could've fed them to the mox a couple times, though.

6)Sometimes Tinker for Memory Jar is the better play than going directly for the Belcher.

Definitely can be, but I only got tinker twice I think; once I could not cast it (no artifacts) and once I correctly got belcher.

7)You can play with Tattermunge Maniac even if the opponent got blockers. That one game there where 2 2/2 + 1 Nighthawk on the AI´s side and you kept the Tattermunge Maniac on your Hand. Playing it would have prevented 4 damage (ai not attacking with the 2/2´s) and attacking with it would have gone rid of one during your next turn.

AI will still attack because it doesn't think 'must attack if able' creatures can block, until they actually do, and won't ever block with them itself. (ex: Maniac or Juggernaut) I had kept it thinking at the time the Nighthawk could have picked it off, but of course the AI would not have foreseen that.

9)Black Lotus - thought it is common knowledge that you keep it on the table untill you can do something relevant with it. (play/activate the Belcher,play a draw 7/Memory Jar etc) You never ever want it to be wasted for creatures.Unless its a fatty that might end the game.

Yeah, agree there. Other than one game where I threw the lotus away to pump a tarmogoyf on the defense, I played it that way, and that let me kill a gatekeeper, and I had tons of land/moxes already anyway.

10)I will slap anybody in the face for Timetwisting away a Tarmogoyf+Belcher. Wait with the Twister untill you ran out of Gas please.Otherwise you just fill up the opponents hand and have to face the consequences.
You still had 28 very good "outs" to draw into if you would have just played the Goyf (was close to a 50% chance to draw into buisness (Land Grant,Mox,Chrome Mox,Goyf,Lotus,Ancestral,Timewalk,a Land....). Worst case you draw into Mongoose/Tattermunge and can still go for the Twister by then WITH a Goyf on the Table.

[/quote]Makes sense, though this scenario didn't come up in the matches I played with your deck. I only once got timetwister cast and I used it to get a three card advantage on turn one. I had mongoose, belcher, and bloodmoon, though I should've done the blood moon first, given that even on the play I knew what deck I was facing, i.e. a deck that blood moon would have owned.

[discoransom]

Well i have my program running smoothly now and am loving testing these decks through the gauntlets.

EDIT: Thought this was supposed to be 2 out of 3, so disregard! Still it doesn't hurt to see how your deck did...

First Results:

Awwfinity

1. Blew out Warrior Stompy 2-0

2. Same with Juzam Zoo- Golems the first two turns...in both games...ouch

3. Extremely fast starts vs. Salbei's Belcher 2-0 and drew into thoughtcast a lot

4. Very close 2-0 vs Haterator. I piloted you through a turn two blood moon and turn 3 energy flux in game 2- in a long game that was ridiculously intense and subtle. Best game of magic vs the AI I've ever had.

5. Loss 0-2 to Nyktorion Zoo- his deck did what zoo with heavy removal does, and I couldn't get a creature to stick.


I love slamming huge hands down with affinity, so it was a pleasure to play. Sorry it didn't go longer.


Salbei's Belcher

Very impressed with the build. Logical but tough decision tree, and very interesting mulligan decisions.

1. 2-1 over Nyktorion Zoo. 3 close games ended with a Pridemage forgetting to blow up your Belcher. I'm glad for that bit of luck as I was still getting used to a few key ideas of your build, and may have handled the chrome moxes improperly.

2. 2-0 over Slivers. Turn 1 Blood Moon gg. Turn 2 Blood Moon gg.

3. 2-0 over Juzam Zoo. Belcher hit turn 2 both games, turn 3 and 4 kills.

4. 2-1 over Haterator. Merfolk Lords came out very quickly all 3 games, and one win was a mull to 5 into a turn 2 kill.

5. 2-1 over Slivers rematch. You traded complete blowouts, and Belcher came out just in time in game three while Goyf held the fort.

6. 2-0 over Cognis Quirion. Your deck did the solitaire thing quickly.

7. 2-0 over Kakodrilo Juzam. Game one Djinn + Will o the Wisp turn one, belcher kill turn 2. Game two it took forever to assemble the pieces, but opponent was manascrewed.

8. 1-2 Loss to Kakodrilo Juzam rematch. Traded quick kills, then game 3 I had to mull you to 5, with a turn one Covetous Dragon I wasn't mulling to 4. Juzam terrors it on turn 1. and casts a Djinn turn 2.

[aww1979]

Jatill's Slivers performed as follows:
1) brandon
2) brandon (again)
3) jatill slivers
4) evil warrior
5) nyktorian
6) salbei
7) aww1979
juzamjedi
9) nyktorian
10) aww1979

10-0 for slivers, the first gauntlet victory I've had so far with these decks. I was rooting for my own deck in 7 and 10, but in 7, AI didn't play some of its cards (I peeked with debug on the winning turn) and game 10 it had all blue cards in hand and no blue mana, and the 2 or 3 artifact creatures it got out weren't enough. Game 5 had one of the most epic finishes ever; nyktorian got absolutely robbed at the end Unfortunately, the recording goes a bit funny there, but AI played Wheel of Fortune at the wrong time, and gave me a win when I was facing certain defeat.

(apologies for the huge slash across the screen; my recording program sometimes does that and I don't know why yet. Also sorry for the very long video, but it is a full ten games, including two very slow ones, sliver mirror and nyktorian zoo in game 5)

@disco: No worries Good to hear you had some fun matches with the deck, though. The turn 2 golem was definitely one of the key plays I designed the deck to be able to do. Broodstar was there mostly to deal with big nonflying armies on both sides, or the Baneslayers that I thought would be everywhere, but *no one* used. In case anyone is wondering, I skipped Cranial Plating, because AI only ever activates it with BB and never with (1), and I skipped Arcbound Ravager, because AI usually just eats the entire board with it :p

Jatill Stax performed as follows:
1) disco
2) evil warrior
3) disco
4) yggdrasil
5) evil warrior
6) brandon
7) the drigo
cognis
9) brandon (LOST)

The first 8 games took no skill, all involving either wastelanding the AI's only land, or getting some sort of hard lock by about turn 2-3. Game 9 was lost due to a berserk when my attackers were tapped. I could have saved one to chump block either that turn, or done it the turn before, but one rarely thinks to chump a 5/4 first strike elf with a suchi when one is at 18 life :p That would have bought me another turn, and unless the AI had an answer to juggernaut, would have lost. (one answer would have been not to attack with the elvish archers with blanchwood armor :p but it would not have thought of that)

So, in other words, if the AI had been human, I was lost either way, but if I had known/guessed exactly what was going to happen, I could have exploited the AI to win that game. I should've been ready for that trick, though; the deck has 4 might of oaks and berserks.

JuzamJedi's Zoo deck performed as follows:
1) aww1979
2) scherbchen
3) salbei
4) juzamjedi
5) disco
6) cognis
7) evil warrior
salbei (LOST)

I took a risk in game 8 that didn't pay off, though I would have lost anyway. Ended up being belched to -21, and there was nothing I could've done, even if I'd held my tribal flames for the topdecked tarmogoyf that came.

Interestingly, of the ten decks I have tested so far, they have all lost to different decks. (nine different people and one undefeated)

[aww1979]

Kakodrilo's Juzam deck performed as follows:
1) thedrigo
2) salbei (LOST)

Sorry Kakodrilo, I went with the more likely possibility in game 2 that I would need the Black Knight to block mongooses to keep an extra 2 life, and then the next turn, I used Drain Life immediately to gain 4 life, rather than gamble that I would 1) survive a belch and 2) topdeck mana, and I was incorrect. It ended up taking the AI a couple extra turns to kill me, during which time I could have won instead, due to him getting very small belches, except for the one he pointed at my black knight. (and I did topdeck that mana :p)

So the net result was that I ended up looking really stupid :p I played too conservatively, (usually I play more aggressively) possibly because I'd gotten into the conservative mindset after Salbei criticized me for errors with his deck :p Oh, well, there is no excuse; I messed up

Apologies to Kakodrilo and you're welcome, Salbei

Nyktorian's Zoo deck performed as follows:
1) jatill haterator
2) jatill haterator (again)
3) yggdrasil
4) cognis
5) nyktorian
6) jatill slivers
7) nyktorian
yggdrasil
9) cognis
10) thedrigo

10-0 gauntlet, despite the fact that I was nearly falling asleep for the last several matches :p I probably made some mistakes, but it doesn't seem to have hurt much The last three (scherbchen, thedrigo, yggdrasil) I will do tomorrow.

[Yggdrasil]

Hello everybody !
I follow this forum for some time but I never posted until now (I'm not really at ease with my english).
The reviews so far are promising, I'll start my own gauntlets tonight.

I'm not sure how to play Salbei's deck perfectly, so I'll probably train myself a little with this one before playing it.
The main beater seems to be the Charbelcher. The other cards are only here to initiate the Charbelcher or distract the opponent, right ? (Well of course if I can win with a tarmo or a Covetous Dragon I won't complain )

I can't wait to start.

[jatill]

EDIT: Thought this was supposed to be 2 out of 3, so disregard! Still it doesn't hurt to see how your deck did...

2/3 is fine. That's what I'm doing.


Salbei-
I was just playing JuzamJedi Zoo against your deck. Twice I thought I had the game locked up and then lost. The first time I played turn 1 Wild Nactal, turn 2 Loam Lion + Kird Ape. Your deck plays turn 2 Blood Moon. Ouch. Game 3 I have 5 creates in play at 17 life to your 3 lands and 5 life. Lotus + Land + Belcher later, I'm at -5. Oops!

[scherbchen]

another 10-0

Thedrigo
10 wins versus
jatill haterator
jatill slivers
warrior stompy (armadillo cloak almost got me)
jatill stax (pridemage and grunts save the day)
imperial zoo (removal flying everywhere, AI doesn't use Jitte so pridemage gets to cancel out an Oblivion Ring and he never tutors for a bob)
scherbchen (AI never plays a threat)
thedrigo (pridemage and combat tricks win the day)
warrior stompy rematch (bit of a stalemate at one point due to me keeping some removal back just in case but no cloak shennanigans this time)
cognis quirion (play around daze a bit and win with superior creatures)
haterator rematch (zap the lords)

jatill stax
4 wins versus
green force (2 quick golems)
jatill slivers (1st turn Trinisphere, thanks for playing)
jatill haterator
monty muck

lost versus jatill slivers. probably should have mulliganed more aggressively there.

[thedrigo]

This is awesome! We should totally do this again in a different format (Legacy, Standard (if possible), Highlander)... I'm really sorry I haven't been able to help out with the testing, but my company is merging with another and it has consumed all my time during the last few months.
Thanks to all the testers and especially Jatill for coming up with this great idea!

[Cognis]

Yeah, it's awesome, I hope we will do it again and this tournament didn't even start, but I definitely have to make a better deck for next time and not send a casual build I like playing with, serves me right for not taking it seriously enough, well at least I'll at least have 5 points for testing, keep up the good work

[juzamjedi]

It's a ton of fun reading the game plays. I'm not surprised at all that my deck consistently loses to Blood Moon / Salbei's deck. I am a little surprised that the AI plays my deck so poorly against Affinity. I put in a lot of cheap removal spells (maxed out on Path to Exile, Tribal Flames and also have some Chain Lightning and Swords to Plowshares). I noticed the AI will path the Arcbound Worker from the game, but leave Master of Etherium alone. /facepalm

Last night I played some "real" gauntlets best 2 of 3.
Aww1979's affinity deck went 10-0. Won through Energy Flux from the Haterator deck twice (!) Lodestome Golem was a house.
Salbei's deck went 2-1 losing to Aww1979 (nut draw w/ Time Walk turn 3)
Brandon's deck went 2-1 losing the mirror (Berserk AND Might of Oaks out of nowhere!)
Quirion went 4-1 losing to Disco (In hindsight game 3 was probably a bad keep, I had 2 draw spells / Daze, but Quirion Dryad was only creature I saw all game)

[discoransom]

I'm not sure how to play Salbei's deck perfectly, so I'll probably train myself a little with this one before playing it.
The main beater seems to be the Charbelcher. The other cards are only here to initiate the Charbelcher or distract the opponent, right ? (Well of course if I can win with a tarmo or a Covetous Dragon I won't complain )

A couple thoughts I have from playing and loving his deck-

Manamorphose may be the most important card in the deck. The whole deck is extremely flexible to any matchup, so scouting the opponent's deck is mandatory or you can just lose. Be sure to thin with crop rotation and land grant if you really need to find a Belcher (also always thin out lands if possible when you're going to activate it).

Against decks that get wrecked by Blood Moon, imprinting a turn one Manamorphose on a Chrome Mox can be very strong. But I've put just about every card on Chrome Mox before, even Goyf. The best play is not always obvious. Oh, and don't Blood Moon lock yourself out of the game

I mulled to 6 many times. Making the correct play between imprinting and dropping a chumper is critical. I won with Covetous Dragon a few times, but also imprinted him for extra mana when I had Belcher in hand and I already had green or was not worried about Blood Moon. Remember to watch your graveyard because Nimble Mongoose can use combat tricks to reach threshold. Usually he's not in play, but he can go beatdown in the right circumstance.