June Tournament (tournament complete; scherbchen1 wins)

[scherbchen1]

well I have another beer I have to finish so, regardless of how the match turns out (go Germany btw! woohoo!) I'll talk about my deck and invite you to criticize it or better it.

17 basic lands is a bit short but given the cantrips I felt it enoough. I removed the fetchlands after it was commentend how badly the AI uses them which was definitely a great tip. 21 lands total plus Coling Oracle and Noble Hierarch, still a bit short but I can never seem to cut spells for mere lands.

I wanted to use Coiling Oracle since I requested it and initially planned to pair it with Ohran Viper i order to make a snakes deck. the Viper was my plan to bypass Wall of Denial which was big last tournament but, sadly, it has stoning instead of deathtouch. only at that point did I consider Natural Order because Progenitus actually does bypass Wall of Annoyance.

Kitchen Finks was a given, love the card as is but a 3-power creature will give the AI fits most of the time as it does not like to trade creatures. the extra life is splendid as well. it scoffs at Diabolic Edict or Gatekeeper of Malakir as well. your best NO is off a Fink.

Force of Will was a given as it can stop just about anything. sure the AI might throw it at weird spells every now and then. that is just the way it is. it shuffles back your drawn Progenitus back into the deck so that is a plus. given how often I read FoW to foil *victory condition* or read about people playing around it this card still pulls it weight big time.

Fact or Fiction is debatable. the AI picks the wrong pile 90% of the time unless you give it a 5-0 split. the AI sucks. I just wanted some way to refuel for the human player.

Brainstorm is a very good card but I still decided to go with only 2 due to not using fetchlands. still have unlimited Brainstom capability off Jace 2.0.

Planeswalkers.... meh. not too stellar in the hands of the AI. Garruk is a Call the Herd with extra flashback. Jace is a Brainstorm-a-turn. still very decent and more often than not a timewalk when the AI crashes its creatures into them or an alternative win-condition for the human player. seen quite a few Overrun victories.

Natural Order needed something else to tutor for so that is where Woodfall Primus (mostly to get rid of Worship) and Spike Weaver (for Baneslayer Angel and a potential mirror) came in. slapping myself for not including at least one SSS. I missed that option.

Control Magic was added for Baneslayer Angel only.

[monopoman]

Didn't someone pick Chainer's Edict from the May tournament?

Would really appreciate a list of the cards Jatill is working on personally.

[discoransom]

Scherbchen- about your deck

(Besides the obvious awesome job, would take it to a romantic dinner and possibly marry it)


The core of the deck:

2 Progenitus
4 Force of Will
4 Natural Order
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Noble Heirarch

These choices are absolutely essential and changing any of these numbers would be a huge mistake imo.

I love Coiling Oracle in this deck and I can't think of anything else that ramps you, provides a green creature, and nets you cards in the first several turns like this does.

I would play no less than 4 Control Magic due to the aggro-heavy nature of the format. But what to cut? I would cut one Fact or Fiction, due to it being a super-late game play (like turn 5 lol), and the fact that it's possibly the weakest card in the hands of the AI. Being pitchable to Force of Will helps, but I think Control Magic is the stronger card in our format.

The 2 Brainstorm are an interesting choice and I like your logic behind running 2. I wouldn't have considered anything but 4 or 0 and I would have missed some of the value you created.

Two Jace, the Mind Sculptor seems right. It might even be good enough to be the second Fact or Fiction instead of Control Magic.

Woodfall Primus- I like it. It deals with the unexpected.

4 Wall of Blossoms. It fits the central theme of stalling and drawing, and it's green. It's also a badly-needed 2-drop.

Garruk Wildspeaker. This is my only complaint. I think these 2 Plainswalkers should have been 2 more Spike Weavers. Spike Weaver was amazing every time I drew it, while Garruk was good, but never critical.

Your mana was good. I think the trade-off of no fetches and slightly worse colored mana breaks about even when you consider AI behavior. Impossible to quantify what is best.

I would not put Simic Sky Swallower in your build. I love it in a deck with faster mana, but here it really serves no purpose, and it doesn't race well. The best it could do is sit back on Baneslayer defense or pitch to Force of Will.

Overall I think the deck is really well-built. I'm shocked that the AI was able to manage it so well. I went into this tourney thinking Force of Will was a no-go, but you disproved that in style!

[aww1979]

@shantak:

, I notice that I haven't got a chance to play a removal between when AI's Oracle hits play and when AI casts Natural Order (which has sacrifice in its cost, not effect). I guess that might be how the rules work with cards as well, but I'm not too clear on the priorities.

This is exactly the way it is supposed to work. It's a bit complicated, but the reasoning is as follows:

1) AI plays Coiling Oracle.
2) AI has opportunity to respond to this (has first priority on its turn)
3) You have opportunity to respond to this (you have second priority, as AI is the active player)
4) Coiling Oracle is successfully cast (assuming it's not countered in 2) or 3) )
5) AI has priority. In this case, it uses that priority to cast Natural Order, and since the sacrifice of the oracle is part of the cost, it is no longer around for you to target
6) You have the chance to respond to Natural Order. Unfortunately, the oracle is no longer around.

[Shantak]

This is exactly the way it is supposed to work. It's a bit complicated, but the reasoning is as follows:

5) AI has priority. In this case, it uses that priority to cast Natural Order, and since the sacrifice of the oracle is part of the cost, it is no longer around for you to target
6) You have the chance to respond to Natural Order. Unfortunately, the oracle is no longer around.

I thought it was something like that. Thanks for explaining it.

[aww1979]

FINAL match:
scherbchen vs cognis AI 2-1 (scherbchen +1 pts)
cognis vs scherbchen AI 2-1 (cognis +1 pts)

scherbchen:
Game 1: Mull to 6, keep a hand with NO and two finks, but only two land. Luckily I draw the two lands on time and proggy goes for the throat. 1-0
Game 2: I mull to 5 cards, which I stand by, since hand 1 had one island, force of will, and nothing else useful, while hand 2 had two islands and nothing useful. The 5 card hand had 3 land and wall of blossoms and some other card, so I keep it. I get Natural Order on time, but I never see a second green mana all game and I get overrun by weenies powered by Sarkhan Vol, and am surprised to see AI even use it, since I've never seen AI activate SV before. 1-1
Game 3: I've got tropical island, island, hierarch, and natural order in my starting hand, so if I can get one more mana I'm in good shape. Unfortunately, on the turn I plan to cast Natural Order I draw the second Progenitus :p So I go get Woodland Primus instead, and smash the AI's only white land, hoping to deny plows/paths. I Force of Will AI's Tarmogoyf, pitching a progenitus. I could, due to the bug, now NO up progenitus, since it got shuffled into library, not removed from game, but I decide to try and win it honestly. Primus trades with Outcast+Finks+Nacatl, then persists and blasts a Taiga, leaving AI manascrewed at one mountain, and I play the Spike Weaver. Primus and Spike then beat down for the win. 2-1

Cognis:
Game 1: This one's pretty intense. I start beating early, and don't see NO when AI is at 4 mana, so I'm encouraged. I do see Garruk on turn 5, and I kill it immediately with an attack. AI gets the Progenitus late, and I can still win, if it doesn't do anything else next turn. It then Control Magics my tarmogoyf. Dammit! I cascade into a plowshares, and hit the tarmogoyf, even though I'm giving the AI 5 valuable life, as I clear the way for my smaller attackers. AI swings with proggy and plays a couple Coiling Oracles. I'm gaining life with Wall of Reverence, so I manage to keep alive longer than normal against The Soul of The World. On what might look like my last turn but isn't, I cleverly play Eternal Witness, get my plowshares, and plow my own Eternal Witness for 2 life, putting me at 12 and letting me survive another Progenitus hit. Next turn I swing for lethal damage, winning with 2 life left 1-0
Game 2: AI gets an early Natural Order (shown off Coiling Oracle so I know it's coming!) and there isn't a lot I can do. It's rubbed in by the fact that the next turn it NOs again for Woodfall Primus and smashes my 4th land, stranding my 4 mana cards in hand, and -really- screwing me, as if it wasn't already bad enough. (I was hoping it would legend its own progenitus away, but either it was smart enough not to, or it was in hand; I forgot to check) 1-1
Game 3: AI gets out Progenitus, and I make a kamikaze-style attack into it, and path the creature it blocks, trying to drop as much AI life as I can and give myself the land I need. I've got 21 life due to Finks/fetchland, so AI needs 3 swings. On the turn where I am at 11, the AI plays another Natural Order PRECOMBAT, saccing his only creature, the Progenitus, and fetches the other Progenitus! I am spared a 10 life punch that turn, and it costs the AI the game. If it had attacked for 10 and then played NO, effectively untapping the progenitus, I would have lost, because the next turn I attack and the AI is now at 1, as proggy kills my best guy and the rest hit. AI plays Fact or Fiction; I divide the cards 4-1, the 1 being Noble Hierarch, which if played would exalt proggy to 11/11 and kill me. AI takes the 4 cards, swings for 10, and we're both at 1 life. AI plays a wall from FoF, and I swing for the kill. 2-1

video uploading...
edit: dammit camstudio crashed while saving the video. Sorry... the cognis matches were really awesome, too. Oh, well.

[aww1979]

I thought it was something like that. Thanks for explaining it.

No problem I'm not really as smart as you think, though; I once came across exactly the same explanation years ago, except that instead of Coiling Oracle and Natural Order, it was Mons Goblin Raiders and Goblin Grenade. However, it is exactly the same concept.

[aww1979]

Everyone but Salbei has now reported, and scherbchen leads by enough that he is now the winner.

scherbchen: +2 scherbchen +1 cognis
monopoman: +1 scherbchen +1 cognis
taron: +2 scherbchen +2 cogni
jatill: +1 scherbchen +2 cognis
cognis: +2 scherbchen +2 cognis
juzamjedi: +2 scherbchen +1 cognis
serbitar: +2 scherbchen +2 cognis
thedrigo: +7 scherbchen +0 cognis
nyktorion: +2 scherbchen +2 cognis
brandon: +2 scherbchen +2 cognis
shantak: +2 scherbchen +2 cognis
yggdrasil: +7 scherbchen +0 cognis
discoransom: +4 scherbchen +0 cognis
aww1979: +1 scherbchen +1 cognis
TOTALS: SCHERBCHEN 39 vs COGNIS 18

Therefore, the prize winners are:
1st - Scherbchen - gets 3 cards
2nd - Cognis - gets 2 cards
3rd/4th - Taron and Yggdrasil - 1 card each

Cognis said I could pick one of his cards if his have already been requested. Since Jatill asked me to keep the rewards next time to 5 cards, and there are 7 this time, I'll make it easy on him and just ask for Stroke of Genius, which should take him about 5 minutes to do, while still actually being a useful card.

[aww1979]

Not so much I can do in the way of useful statistics for this style of tournament, without a lot of work for very little useful information, but here's a few amusing points:

Highest score in one round: Aww1979 jundinator with 44, beating thedrigo 44-29 in Match F
Lowest score in one round: Nyktorion with 13, losing to Yggdrasil 13-41 in Match GH
Highest score that still lost: Aww1979 cuddles with 32, losing to Jatill 32-36 in Match C
Lowest score that still won: Discoransom with 24, winning sudden death against Shantak 24-24 in Match G

Closest Match: Discoransom, winning sudden death against Shantak 24-24 in Match G
Biggest Rout: Nyktorion, losing to Yggdrasil 13-41 in Match GH (28 point difference)

[juzamjedi]

Sooo... you're actually supposed to be able to respond to Coiling Oracle. For a normal creature (like the Mons you mention below) the AI would retain priority as you stated. With oracle, however, it creates a trigger when it enters the battlefield. Natural Order is a sorcery so the trigger has to resolve before the sorcery can be cast. The opponent (you) are supposed to be allowed to respond to the trigger.

In case people are wondering the same thing is true with cascade spells from Bloodbraid Elf. In Manalink if the AI cascades into Path to Exile then you cannot respond to it. In real life, however, you could respond to one or both spells on the stack. That's the reason Wizards printed the card Double Negative.

[aww1979]

Oh yeah, I forgot about those stupid new rules, where the coiling oracle thing would go onto the stack. Okay, well what I said was correct when I used to play :p But yes, Juzamjedi is correct given today's rules; however, the microprose engine doesn't use that modern rule.

[taron]

I'm going to ask for Emrakul, the Aeons Torn for mine, seems we could get some interesting decks going. And the approximation seems close enough, I know I more than likely won't be abusing the come into play thing, because I intend to get it out t1 by channeling, and then finishing it on t2-3.

[jatill]

Didn't someone pick Chainer's Edict from the May tournament?

Would really appreciate a list of the cards Jatill is working on personally.

I don't think so. I don't have the list in front of me, but from what I can remember, they are:

Urza's Bauble
Extirpate
Sarkhan the Mad
Nostalgic Dreams
Haunting Echoes
Stoneforge Mystic

[Cognis]

Ok, so aww gets his card and I take Chainer's Edict. Is there a point for asking RoE cards when they will be added eventually, I know someone was working on that.

[jatill]

Ok, so aww gets his card and I take Chainer's Edict. Is there a point for asking RoE cards when they will be added eventually, I know someone was working on that.

Since it's been a couple months and we haven't seen a single card, I wouldn't count on them being added eventually.